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Baldur's Gate Did Baldur's Gate 2 have "crafting"?

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I would think the biggest sin of BG2 would be how abysmally linear the game becomes as soon as you set sail for Spellhold but crafting it is I suppose.

Crafting and romance were just two examples, in no particular order.

Some people simply got triggered, that their holy cow was being accused of having such decline and degeneracy as crafting.

Everything about BG2 was a decline and the game itself a massive disappointment, after the (comparative) masterpiece that was BG1.

The linearity was also terrible, yes and it started right in Chateau Irenicus.

I tend to agree. BG2 starts off great but on the whole it's a sizeable step down from the original, especially with regards to player agency. Playing an evil party, for example, is miserable in BG2. The first game has plenty of evil companions, so if, like in my last playthrough, Montaron gets chunked by a basilisk early on you can just replace him without much hassle. BG2 on the other hand doesn't even have enough evil companions to fill out a party, and some companions outright negate evil choices. I had Aerie with me as a mage early on and she would constantly overrule decisions that I made, which was incredibly infuriating. People can say what they will about having lots of empty wilderness or whatever it is people disliked about BG, but the game was open from start to finish and respected your agency a lot more than BG2 did.
 

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Yes, Baldur's Gate 2 has "crafting" in the general sense that you have the option to craft certain items. However, the kind of crafting you have in BG2 is so different from the Standardized Crafting Systemthat every videogame with (or without) RPG elements implements today that it almost feels strange to put them in the same category. Not because they aren't "crafting", but because the criticism that's usually valid for the Standardized Crafting Systemcan't really be applied to what BG2 had.

It's the beginning of the decline, not that it was equal to and exactly the same as Skyrim.

Should have been an uncontroversial observation.

How is it "the beginning of the decline" when it has absolutely nothing in common with Standardized Generic Crafting Systems, and is actually really fucking cool?
 

Atlantico

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How is it "the beginning of the decline" when it has absolutely nothing in common with Standardized Generic Crafting Systems, and is actually really fucking cool?

Because it had romance and crafting.

Your protest is mewling and unconvincing, you have to twist your logic into a pretzel shape and make up some bullshit "Standardized Generic Crafting Systems".

Autism. Sadly, there's no cure for you.
 

Silverfish

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Your protest is mewling and unconvincing, you have to twist your logic into a pretzel shape and make up some bullshit "Standardized Generic Crafting Systems".

Right? What even constitutes "generic" crafting in rpg's? Skyrim and Dark Souls both use linear progression (+1 / Improved, etc), but approach upgrade materials very differently. Fallout 4 is literally about taping new bits onto old weapons and armor, while Kingdoms of Amalur focuses on making new items from found / purchased components. Nioh is similar to Amalur, but allows you to re-roll for additional effects and is stingier with components. Mass Effect had its fucking bizarre "buy a blueprint and then 'research' it to make the weapon" nonsense. Which one is the standard?
 
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In BG2 dragon scales aren't generic items, it isn't Skyrim.

Again, 100% autism. That there are only 3 dragons in the game doesn't make their scales "broken artifact pieces". They're literally crafting material.

Do you believe that just having the possibility to turn item X to item Y makes X a crafting material, even if X can be only turned to Y and X is a single material needed to make Y?
 

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Do you believe that just having the possibility to turn item X to item Y makes X a crafting material, even if X can be only turned to Y and X is a single material needed to make Y?

I believe that searching for and finding ingredients X, Y and Z and then going to a smithy, and crafting a new item, item A out of these ingredients in a smithy, is in fact crafting.

Primitive, certainly. But that's neither here nor there. That's how the decline starts. That's BG2, the harbinger of the decline.

Fuck it even gave David Gaider a job. Just about everything about BG2 was decline. Even the music.
 
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I believe that searching for and finding ingredients X, Y and Z and then going to a smithy, and crafting a new item, item A out of these ingredients in a smithy, is in fact crafting.

And what if we have only one item X that turns into A? Is it still crafting for you?

I see "crafting" in BG2 as a more of an aesthetic or narrative thing rather than a mechanical system. Crafting is a mechanical system for me, so I don't consider what is in BG2 as crafting.
 

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I see "crafting" in BG2 as a more of an aesthetic or narrative thing rather than a mechanical system. Crafting is a mechanical system for me, so I don't consider what is in BG2 as crafting.

It is narrative in e.g. the Flail of Ages, but it's not narrative in a dragonscale armor or Wonderous Gloves.

You can craft Wonderous Gloves with

- diamond
- emerald
- rogue stone
- star sapphire
- 5000 gold
- Bard's Gloves

Nothing narrative about it. You just have a crafting recipe, look for the ingredients which are mostly bog-standard resources and gold, go to a smithy and craft.

It's not the most involved or advanced crafting system, it's over 20 years old, but that's neither here nor there.
 

Harthwain

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I see "crafting" in BG2 as a more of an aesthetic or narrative thing rather than a mechanical system. Crafting is a mechanical system for me, so I don't consider what is in BG2 as crafting.
I'd say both are correct. It doesn't really matter if crafting is done by the player himself via the mechanical system or via the narrative system in which you give blacksmith the materials he needs to craft the item for you. I mean, it may matter if you like one or the other, but the end result is essentially the same: somebody ends up creating an item, using his skill in a craft.
 

Gargaune

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I see "crafting" in BG2 as a more of an aesthetic or narrative thing rather than a mechanical system. Crafting is a mechanical system for me, so I don't consider what is in BG2 as crafting.

It is narrative in e.g. the Flail of Ages, but it's not narrative in a dragonscale armor or Wonderous Gloves.

You can craft Wonderous Gloves with

- diamond
- emerald
- rogue stone
- star sapphire
- 5000 gold
- Bard's Gloves

Nothing narrative about it. You just have a crafting recipe, look for the ingredients which are mostly bog-standard resources and gold, go to a smithy and craft.

It's not the most involved or advanced crafting system, it's over 20 years old, but that's neither here nor there.
That's a fair point, but in that case maybe it's worth distinguishing between SoA and ToB? Nevermind narrative, consider Red Dragon Armour in SoA - you get the components in the same fashion you get unique magical items, e.g. you get the Red Dragon Scales just like you get Carsomyr, by killing Klauth, whereas in Skyrim you've got an indefinite source of generic materials used to construct an indefinite number of generic equipment. Basically, crafting in SoA is loot with some assembly required, a set of collectible mini-quests as opposed to the crafting system in Skyrim, which is a distinct gameplay mechanic.

but the end result is essentially the same: somebody ends up creating an item, using his skill in a craft.
But isn't that a distinction right there? In SoA, you don't use any skills in crafting, you just take your unique trophies to the dwarf dude and pay him to make a unique item. The only character skill involved in making Red Dragon Armour is the same one involved in getting Carsomyr: murder.
 

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But isn't that a distinction right there? In SoA, you don't use any skills in crafting, you just take your unique trophies to the dwarf dude and pay him to make a unique item. The only character skill involved in making Red Dragon Armour is the same one involved in getting Carsomyr: murder.
Just because the player isn't the one doing the crafting it doesn't mean there is no crafting as such. The Dwarf is a blacksmith. A blacksmith is a craftman. He is using his craft (blacksmithing) to make items for you. And because you have to go through the trouble of bringing him special components, you get special items in return. I get the value of having a good mechnical crafting system, but the one present in Baldur's Gate 2 is good for what it is.
 

Gargaune

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Just because the player isn't the one doing the crafting it doesn't mean there is no crafting as such. The Dwarf is a blacksmith. A blacksmith is a craftman. He is using his craft (blacksmithing) to make items for you. And because you have to go through the trouble of bringing him special components, you get special items in return. I get the value of having a good mechnical crafting system, but the one present in Baldur's Gate 2 is good for what it is.
I haven't followed the entire discussion, but if we're arguing over BG2 introducing decline with the crafting system, aren't the mechanical distinctions the most pertinent ones? What I was saying is that from a gameplay perspective, SoA's crafting mini-quests aren't all that different from regular loot. For the record, I like SoA's crafting quests, I thought it was a nice way of putting a spin and flavour on some of the higher-tier loot without getting too sidetracked from the main gameplay loop.
 

Harthwain

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I haven't followed the entire discussion, but if we're arguing over BG2 introducing decline with the crafting system, aren't the mechanical distinctions the most pertinent ones? What I was saying is that from a gameplay perspective, SoA's crafting mini-quests aren't all that different from regular loot. For the record, I like SoA's crafting quests, I thought it was a nice way of putting a spin and flavour on some of the higher-tier loot without getting too sidetracked from the main gameplay loop.
I don't think Baldur's Gate 2 introduces decline. Sure, it simplifies things by having the player to bring rare items and make him pay for it too, but it helps make that kind of crafting special, because by obtaining special ingredients you get special items, therefore making the whole process feel special.

Whereas in the MMO-style crafting you can craft a lot of stuff, but in many cases it's trash or slightly better than the common stuff you can find or loot and the crafting process itself is not all that interesting to participate in. And in order to craft a multitude of knifes - just to level up your crafting skill - you have to grind the resources required for it (read: it's a deliberate waste of player's time).

So, if anything, I would say it's the mechanical crafting that is most commonly a decline enabler, because in a lot of games developers fail to make the crafting system impactul or fun for the player, but feel like they have to fulfill some sort of checklist by putting it there.

Edit:

Regarding the discussion - my main point was that Baldur's Gate 2 has crafting, even though the way it is performed is different from what people got used to when they think of crafting in games.
 
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Atlantico

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if we're arguing over BG2 introducing decline with the crafting system, aren't the mechanical distinctions the most pertinent ones?

It's a false dichotomy, one leads from the other, if not for primitive crafting systems like in BG2, we would not have the later hamsterwheel crafting systems.

There's a distinct developmental line from one to the other, which is the decline. It's pretty hard to be in decline after you've already down.

Saying BG2 isn't mechanically the same as later systems is nothing but shielding the Golden Cow from just criticism and ridicule.
 

Gargaune

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I don't think Baldur's Gate 2 introduces decline. Sure, it simplifies things by having the player to bring rare items and make him pay for it too, but it helps make that kind of crafting special, because by obtaining special ingredients you get special items, therefore making the whole process feel special.

Whereas in the MMO-style crafting you can craft a lot of stuff, but in many cases it's trash or slightly better than the common stuff you can find or loot and the crafting process itself is not all that interesting to participate in. And in order to craft a multitude of knifes - just to level up your crafting skill - you have to grind the resources required for it (read: it's a deliberate waste of player's time).

So, if anything, I would say it's the mechanical crafting that is most commonly a decline enabler, because in a lot of games developers fail to make the crafting system impactul or fun for the player, but feel like they have to fulfill some sort of checklist by putting it there.

Edit:

Regarding the discussion - my main point was that Baldur's Gate 2 has crafting, even though the way it is performed is different from what people got used to when they think of crafting in games.
I think we got our wires crossed 'cause I agree with everything you just said there. I just disagreed with Atlantico's suggestion that BG2's (or SoA's, at least) crafting feature should be frowned upon in a similar vein to modern systemic crafting mechanics like in Skyrim or MMOs, as you put it.

It's a false dichotomy, one leads from the other, if not for primitive crafting systems like in BG2, we would not have the later hamsterwheel crafting systems.

There's a distinct developmental line from one to the other, which is the decline. It's pretty hard to be in decline after you've already down.

Saying BG2 isn't mechanically the same as later systems is nothing but shielding the Golden Cow from just criticism and ridicule.
It might be a precursor, sure, but it's quite a different beast and I don't think it deserves being labelled decline by association. To go with your geometry metaphor, for SoA's crafting to be part of the decline, its point would have to be lower on the graph than its predecessor's, BG1. But it isn't, SoA's crafting system did not represent a reduction in gameplay quality from the first BG's itemisation, if anything it added something cool to it. To fault it for the eventual drudgery of Skyrim's crafting mechanics would be a little bit like blaming the invention of the internet for the existence of Twitter.
 

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It might be a precursor, sure, but it's quite a different beast and I don't think it deserves being labelled decline by association. To go with your geometry metaphor, for SoA's crafting to be part of the decline, its point would have to be lower on the graph than its predecessor's, BG1. But it isn't, SoA's crafting system did not represent a reduction in gameplay quality from the first BG's itemisation, if anything it added something cool to it. To fault it for the eventual drudgery of Skyrim's crafting mechanics would be a little bit like blaming the invention of the internet for the existence of Twitter.

Sophistry and coping all at once.
 

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if we're arguing over BG2 introducing decline with the crafting system, aren't the mechanical distinctions the most pertinent ones?

It's a false dichotomy, one leads from the other, if not for primitive crafting systems like in BG2, we would not have the later hamsterwheel crafting systems.

There's a distinct developmental line from one to the other, which is the decline. It's pretty hard to be in decline after you've already down.

Saying BG2 isn't mechanically the same as later systems is nothing but shielding the Golden Cow from just criticism and ridicule.

Hamsterwheel comes from MUD/Wizardry style skills advancing with use. Crafting is only one piece of that puzzle.
 

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Crafting was not only born out of convenience but also because it provided "filler content" in the era of blooming achievement craze back in the days.
What i mean by convenience. First i need to explain the modes of itemization that were in games up until crafting became a thing:
-static loot[like in fallout], which decreased player agenda in the world. Only method of obtaining a cool item was to loot it in specific play. Granted it forced some builds and players to cleverly get access to them, sometimes going to great lengths to meta the game. Not casual friendly.
-diablo introduced random generation successfully, with chance based unique drops and blind crafting. The problem with this system is that it was time consuming for player, repeating ad nauseam parts of the game to drop the loot. The blind crafting through horadric cube is fun at first, but then it become a tedium trying all the combinations, hoping it will work. This is not the way to create a game that could be advertised to new wave of casual gamers.

Crafting is easily understandable with open recipes, increase player agenda,it is familiar to casual facebook games, and follows the trope of "build your character from rags to riches", beside your typical power level increase from leveling/perks. Crafting usually grants player items that can't be find in the world, hence the player feel more accomplishment and uniqueness of their skill invested. Crafting is also a great filler and increase the game length considerably, if it's integral to strengthening your character before next difficult encounter or unlocking new game area/quests. Thus developers can claim inflated gameplay hours, to incite casual consumers to buy the game. Players get clear and coincise goal, like a quest market burning on the compass, how to get an item. No need for clever skill checks, to obtain a gated unique, you just mindlessly gather resources and then click, bam you get powerful sword or other stuff. It banks on the typical MMO grind addictiveness, of doing mundane, but easy task, to obtain an ingame advantage. Instead of using wits to outsmart the encounter, make a clever build, you trade that for easily understandable recipe.
The most addictive system is when you can upgrade a weapon or armor infinitely, while resource cost of each upgrade increase. Players will scrounge the maps for resources to get even more powerful.

I think crafting is only good, if it complement the game setting and has some verisimilitude in regards of the game setting and genre. Like it's obvious that a game about plane crash survivor on a lone island, need to have an elaborate crafting system, because you are literally in environment that have nothing beside basic building resources. Whereas RPGs can abide without crafting, as it's not a vital component to build a game upon, they can either use static or chance based system or procedurally generated randomized items, or mix of these systems just fine within the context of the plot, genre and game universe. Crafting compared to procedural creation of items, has the big disadvantage similar to the static loot system -the lists of crafting recipes are finite, unless the crafting system allows infinite upgrade system. I think chosing an itemization system, has profound effect on the whole gameplay. Crafting incentivize gathering materials, which similar to random dropping system, incentivize farming monsters or locations. Whereas static loot incentivize clever play to obtain items, but restricts player to certain dialogues or actions.

In the end a good game can use mix all itemization techniques to create a rich experience for players, no matter whether they are casuals or how they play the game.
 

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I always associated crafting with a multistaged process:
- harvesting/farming raw materials available in abundance yet charging a fee in time it takes to get
- multi-tiered craftsmanship/recipe requirements/levels, eg. iron-steel-adamantium obtained by paying a fee in time, eg. make 1000 iron gloves before unlocking the skill level for steel or waiting for a random recipe drop
- economy that incorporates crafting by acknowledging crafted materials value, eg iron gloves sell just like any other, dragon armour is worth a fortune.

I cannot remember off the top of my head any single player games with a crafting system, but starting from year 2000+ MMO RPGs were teeming with such crafting, eg. Eternal Lands, Knight Online, Silkroad Online, World of Warcraft, Anarchy Online etc.

Crafting system suits open world games, so a game like Morrowind benefited from at the time imho amazing crafting system. I don't know off the top of my head if any single player game prior went to town on crafting to the same extent (Diablo?), but early 2000 crafting revolution opened the gates wide.

BG2 crafting is a gimmick in comparison, introduced for the sake of lore and as a narrative/atmospheric tool. Something different from just looting dead bodies. A mini collect 'em all game. To be honest, it was great for the first couple of times, but enduring Cromwell cutscenes became a chore fast. But the anticipation of the new item was still there and that was the point. It was like opening a Christmas present.

That being said, I personally preferred BG1 style of simple, dry adventure and mystery. Discovering helm and cloak of Balduran had me at the edge of my seat. There's something special about not making a public affair of it, no applause or fireworks, instead just you and scattered clues and if you're successful a silent dopamine euphoria is all you get while standing alone in some dinky dungeon or abandoned building.

Problem with role-playing games is that the experience can be subjective due to individual players imagination capacity, but to be fair, also due to game dev's imagination and their capacity to dream and trust players will catch on and enjoy the ride. This is likely not acceptable risk now that big corpos are at the helm. Give plebs a Gandalf dragon fireworks and in abundance, devalue or completely abandon nuance and spew out sequels.

I don't think BG2 intentionally meant to start a decline revolution, just like Fallout 2, they were experimenting to improve the originals, both forgetting that sometimes less is more.
 

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-static loot[like in fallout], which decreased player agenda in the world. Only method of obtaining a cool item was to loot it in specific play. Granted it forced some builds and players to cleverly get access to them, sometimes going to great lengths to meta the game. Not casual friendly.


Crafting is easily understandable with open recipes, increase player agenda,it is familiar to casual facebook games, and follows the trope of "build your character from rags to riches", beside your typical power level increase from leveling/perks.

I have to hard disagree with this.

Static loot placement increases player agency way more than generic crafting. In games like Fallout, Arcanum, BG2, Morrowind especially on replays you can plan your playthrough around beelining for powerful items. There is no random drop chance, you are not at the mercy of RNG - it is your own initiative and skill that leads you to getting the cool item.

BG2 has a lot of great items sold at a shop. You can see them when browsing the shops and see how much they cost. All you have to do is raise that money.
Morrowind has some magic weapons stored in watchtowers. It's hard to get your hands on them without being caught unless you're good at sneaking, but knowing they're there means you can easily make up a plan on how to get them.

How you get your hands on these items is up to you. Some games allow you to steal them, buy them, or simply fight for them. Or they're quest rewards, and the quest itself offers some player agency through having multiple choices.

But in games with a heavy crafting system, you are pretty much forced into skilling up your craft skill and farming resources if you want good equipment. That means you have to perform mindless grind. Instead of thinking about clever ways to get your hands on the guarded artifact in the museum, you just have to mindlessly go from iron mine to iron mine and use your pickaxe.

It's the replacement of something unique and engaging with something generic and mindless.
 

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It's the replacement of something unique and engaging with something generic and mindless.

I would say it has more to do with easy of implementation. Hand placed loot requires a lot of tinkering and well... actually placing stuff in the game world. So making hand placed items work without breaking the game in half is actually somewhat difficult and time consuming but coding a bunch of recipes to make progressively more powerful items out of randomly dropped crap is easy, quick and very tweakable. It also makes it seem like there is more content in the game than there really is by inflating the number of items with crafting ingredients.

Its just easier to do and looks "cool" so most default to it without really thinking about it.
 
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JarlFrank

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It's the replacement of something unique and engaging with something generic and mindless.

I would say it has more to do with easy of implementation. Hand placed loot requires a lot of tinkering and well... actually placing stuff in the game world. So making hand placed items work work without breaking the game in half is actually somewhat difficult and time consuming but coding a bunch of recopies to make progressively more powerful items out of randomly dropped crap is easy, quick and very tweakable. It also makes it seem like there is more content in the game than there really is by inflating the number of items with crafting ingredients.

Its just easier to do and looks "cool" so most default to it without really thinking about it.

So basically it's not just easy and mindless for the players but also for the devs. :M
 

Ravielsk

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So basically it's not just easy and mindless for the players but also for the devs. :M

Yes, at least the modern interpretation of crafting. In the past it used to be a purely supplementary system to add some variety and maybe give the player a bit of control over their gear(mainly a thing for diablo clones). Problem is that modern games take that exact system verbatim and make it their main feature without really changing anything about the system or the game. The most annoying thing is that they tend to get away with it because the problems with such basic systems only become apparent after about 10-20 hours of play at which point most forget they even bought the game.

Skyrim comes to mind as one of the biggest offenders as there crafting straight up breaks the game in half by giving the player items far outside of their level range. But most people never notice because they rarely play that long.
 

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The less intertwining of game systems, the less abstract it gets, the more easier is to create the game. That's why games with statically placed items are hard to balance, and then you get players who can finish the game in 30 minutes doing some absolutely crazy shit[morrowind, fallout etc.]. Crafting is a great equalizer and stopper of such practices. You can't get around the fact that you need to harvest 250 gems or other shit, which are only dropped by monsters.
 

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