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Baldur's Gate Did Baldur's Gate 2 have "crafting"?

Ravielsk

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The less intertwining of game systems, the less abstract it gets, the more easier is to create the game. That's why games with statically placed items are hard to balance, and then you get players who can finish the game in 30 minutes doing some absolutely crazy shit[morrowind, fallout etc.]. Crafting is a great equalizer and stopper of such practices. You can't get around the fact that you need to harvest 250 gems or other shit, which are only dropped by monsters.

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know people who "speedrun" Bethesda games usually do that by exploiting the crafting system. In those games its actually the painfully basic nature of those crafting systems that lets the player abuse them to break the game not the other way around. If equalizing is the goal than hand made itemization is far better at controlling pace than any crafting system.
 

JarlFrank

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The less intertwining of game systems, the less abstract it gets, the more easier is to create the game. That's why games with statically placed items are hard to balance, and then you get players who can finish the game in 30 minutes doing some absolutely crazy shit[morrowind, fallout etc.]. Crafting is a great equalizer and stopper of such practices. You can't get around the fact that you need to harvest 250 gems or other shit, which are only dropped by monsters.

Which is fucking terrible, because both Morrowind and Fallout can only be played that way when you know the game as well as the back of your hand. And then they become great fun on replays because you can experiment with anything, and skip the stuff you don't like.

There being no way around harvesting 250 gems or other shit kills a game's replay value because when you start it up for a second playthrough, you realize you will have to spend hours farming crafting materials and quit right then and there.
 

Stavrophore

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There being no way around harvesting 250 gems or other shit kills a game's replay value because when you start it up for a second playthrough, you realize you will have to spend hours farming crafting materials and quit right then and there.

You are not the target demographic then. You will have to resort to play more niche RPG games.
 
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The less intertwining of game systems, the less abstract it gets, the more easier is to create the game. That's why games with statically placed items are hard to balance, and then you get players who can finish the game in 30 minutes doing some absolutely crazy shit[morrowind, fallout etc.]. Crafting is a great equalizer and stopper of such practices. You can't get around the fact that you need to harvest 250 gems or other shit, which are only dropped by monsters.

Which is fucking terrible, because both Morrowind and Fallout can only be played that way when you know the game as well as the back of your hand. And then they become great fun on replays because you can experiment with anything, and skip the stuff you don't like.

There being no way around harvesting 250 gems or other shit kills a game's replay value because when you start it up for a second playthrough, you realize you will have to spend hours farming crafting materials and quit right then and there.

Just as if corporations were purposely making games that are unfun to replay so people would rather buy a new one.
 

JarlFrank

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There being no way around harvesting 250 gems or other shit kills a game's replay value because when you start it up for a second playthrough, you realize you will have to spend hours farming crafting materials and quit right then and there.

You are not the target demographic then. You will have to resort to play more niche RPG games.

I guess the target audience are bugmen, then. Because who the fuck genuinely enjoys grinding and farming, other than soulless automatons?
 

mondblut

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Crafting system suits open world games, so a game like Morrowind benefited from at the time imho amazing crafting system. I don't know off the top of my head if any single player game prior went to town on crafting to the same extent (Diablo?), but early 2000 crafting revolution opened the gates wide.

Might & Magic 6. Even 5, if we count trading gems harvested from the mines for random kind of upper-tier items.
 

mondblut

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It's the beginning of the decline, not that it was equal to and exactly the same as Skyrim.

Should have been an uncontroversial observation.

Crafting started with Tolkien. They had to fix that stupid sword instead of throwing it out and just buying or looting a new one. Decline incarnate.
 

Atlantico

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Crafting started with Tolkien. They had to fix that stupid sword instead of throwing it out and just buying or looting a new one. Decline incarnate.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Sorry babe, your argument is lazy and stupid. Yet another BG2 faggot who can't accept the game was garbage.

You are a dime a dozen.
 

mondblut

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Crafting started with Tolkien. They had to fix that stupid sword instead of throwing it out and just buying or looting a new one. Decline incarnate.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Sorry babe, your argument is lazy and stupid. Yet another BG2 faggot who can't accept the game was garbage.

You are a dime a dozen.

Of course BG2 was garbage. It was RTWP and had dumbfuck companions instead of a proper party.

This doesn't negate the fact that trading a quest item for an unique piece of equipment from an NPC is not "crafting".
 

Atlantico

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Of course BG2 was garbage. It was RTWP and had dumbfuck companions instead of a proper party.

Sweet-talking will get you nowhere.

This doesn't negate the fact that trading a quest item for an unique piece of equipment from an NPC is not "crafting".

You can craft Wonderous Gloves with

- diamond
- emerald
- rogue stone
- star sapphire
- 5000 gold
- Bard's Gloves

What quest items? What's the material difference between a craft station and an NPC who is a craft station. You splitting hairs potato.

It's obvious to those who want to see, and to those who are determined crafting is that thing you do in Minecraft, well there's no talking to you. It's a broader term.
 

ScrotumBroth

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I have to hard disagree with this.

Static loot placement increases player agency way more than generic crafting. In games like Fallout, Arcanum, BG2, Morrowind especially on replays you can plan your playthrough around beelining for powerful items. There is no random drop chance, you are not at the mercy of RNG - it is your own initiative and skill that leads you to getting the cool item.

BG2 has a lot of great items sold at a shop. You can see them when browsing the shops and see how much they cost. All you have to do is raise that money.
Morrowind has some magic weapons stored in watchtowers. It's hard to get your hands on them without being caught unless you're good at sneaking, but knowing they're there means you can easily make up a plan on how to get them.

How you get your hands on these items is up to you. Some games allow you to steal them, buy them, or simply fight for them. Or they're quest rewards, and the quest itself offers some player agency through having multiple choices.

But in games with a heavy crafting system, you are pretty much forced into skilling up your craft skill and farming resources if you want good equipment. That means you have to perform mindless grind. Instead of thinking about clever ways to get your hands on the guarded artifact in the museum, you just have to mindlessly go from iron mine to iron mine and use your pickaxe.

It's the replacement of something unique and engaging with something generic and mindless.

It's a very interesting point. It really does accentuate why Morrowind was such a mind-blowing game. You could do all the things you've mentioned (and more, like levitate etc.) to obtain hand placed items and at the same time it allowed for advanced crafting system by adding magic into the mix. So instead of mindless mining, you're carefully planning to capture a soul of a hand placed unique powerful being in a gem and make your own mega item with a personal touch.

P.S. Grinding is unavoidable even if you're a thief class, in order to have high enough sneak/lockpick/pickpocket skills you need to steal a thousand common items or kill a thousand enemies in order to obtain necessary skill points.
 

mondblut

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You can craft Wonderous Gloves with

- diamond
- emerald
- rogue stone
- star sapphire
- 5000 gold
- Bard's Gloves

What quest items? What's the material difference between a craft station and an NPC who is a craft station. You splitting hairs potato.

Bard's Gloves is an unique item. You are giving an NPC a bunch of gems to upgrade an unique item into a stronger version of it.
 

Chippy

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This is an interesting thread. Crafting is awesome. I'll read past the first page when I'm confident I'll be able to read each post and make my save vs permanent autism. Generally I'd say crafting was done best in KOTOR2. Although all of the games mentioned had crafting, the question is how relavent does it make the player's items feel to them?. So I'd say BG2 did it best. F:NV was a close second, but that was mainly modding stuff.

Although just equipping everyone with magic arms and armor in a DNd3.5 edition game is as boring as finding those +1-3 items scattered throughout NWN. While BG2 didn't have crafting as interesting as F:NV it still felt like you found a noteworthy weapon when you crafted it at Cromwell's forge, so it could be argued that it was better because the item had history and you had assembled it.

All swings and roundabouts. I think where crafting will come into its own is when you can learn from artifacts found and create a masterpiece. Like when Bruenor created Aegis Fang in the Drizzt books, he set aside crafting forever. So imagine building up all your skills as per KOTOR2 because weapons and armor arn't just laying around in every barrel. Then you come across relic level stuff that you can keep, or break them down to find out why they're unique (like the guns in F:NV). And then your character gets to create that one unique relic from all of the many "recipes" they've discovered.

Throw skill checks in there like science, lore, spellcrafting, etc. And then once you've crafted that awesome weapon/armor, the game is still interesting because there's other relics out there. Then allow the player to continue making basic essentials. Like ammo, and low grade wepaons.
 

Harthwain

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This doesn't negate the fact that trading a quest item for an unique piece of equipment from an NPC is not "crafting".
You are retarded.

A craft or trade is a pastime or an occupation that requires particular skills and knowledge of skilled work. In a historical sense, particularly the Middle Ages and earlier, the term is usually applied to people occupied in small scale production of goods, or their maintenance, for example by tinkers.
If the player has no knowledge or skill to do something, then it is natural that he goes to someone who has. There is no rule saying that crafting can only be done by the player, so an NPC is a valid (and natural) choice. Evenmoreso, it usually indicates that said person makes a living out of selling goods he makes (hence why he is called "craftman") and it suits someone who has settled down, rather than an active adventurer. Which is why I think players should only be allowed to repair or slightly modify their gear, whereas the more complicated work ought to be passed down to craftmen. It can also serve as a good way to sink money.
 

mondblut

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If the player has no knowledge or skill to do something, then it is natural that he goes to someone who has. There is no rule saying that crafting can only be done by the player, so an NPC is a valid (and natural) choice. Evenmoreso, it usually indicates that said person makes a living out of selling goods he makes (hence why he is called "craftman") and it suits someone who has settled down, rather than an active adventurer. Which is why I think players should only be allowed to repair or slightly modify their gear, whereas the more complicated work ought to be passed down to craftmen. It can also serve as a good way to sink money.

Right, because an NPC got a "smith" to his name and says "gee, I don't just exchange your quest item for an unique artifact, I will CRAFT it right here in front of you", a quest suddenly becomes crafting mechanics.

You are retarded.

And you are clueless dumbfuck.
 

Harthwain

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Right, because an NPC got a "smith" to his name and says "gee, I don't just exchange your quest item for an unique artifact, I will CRAFT it right here in front of you", a quest suddenly becomes crafting mechanics.
:nocountryforshitposters:

I didn't say it was a mechanic (In fact, I even said it's a simplified way of doing it!). I said that using a skill to create an item is generally considered crafting. It is not really that complicated. If we go your way, then exchanging stuff for some other stuff is trading, even when really it is called bartering. That's why distinctions are important.

And you are clueless dumbfuck.
Not as clueless as you, apparently. If anything, autistic would be more accurate term. But at this point it is obvious you have problems using the words correctly.
 

mondblut

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Right, because an NPC got a "smith" to his name and says "gee, I don't just exchange your quest item for an unique artifact, I will CRAFT it right here in front of you", a quest suddenly becomes crafting mechanics.
:nocountryforshitposters:

I didn't say it was a mechanic (In fact, I even said it's a simplified way of doing it!). I said that using a skill to create an item is generally considered crafting. It is not really that complicated. If we go your way, then exchanging stuff for some other stuff is trading, even when really it is called bartering. That's why distinctions are important.

Congrats, you and the other autist are sharing a language unknown to the rest of humanity, for whom "crafting" in games means having a mechanical system - not fixing up Guarda Revanche or converting "hunting rifle" into "scoped hunting rifle".

Not as clueless as you, apparently. If anything, autistic would be more accurate term. But at this point it is obvious you have problems using the words correctly.

The irony.
 
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I see "crafting" in BG2 as a more of an aesthetic or narrative thing rather than a mechanical system. Crafting is a mechanical system for me, so I don't consider what is in BG2 as crafting.
I'd say both are correct. It doesn't really matter if crafting is done by the player himself via the mechanical system or via the narrative system in which you give blacksmith the materials he needs to craft the item for you. I mean, it may matter if you like one or the other, but the end result is essentially the same: somebody ends up creating an item, using his skill in a craft.
Depends on the uniqueness of the item. If you need the unique golden dragon scale for him to forge the unique golden sword, then the game is just using the blacksmith for flavor instead of having the dragon drop the sword. If he's there in the hub and you can give him 2 wood and 1 iron ingot for 20 arrows, then it's "crafting" as commonly understood (again using the blacksmith for flavor, this time with the objective of limiting crafting to the safe town area).
 

Harthwain

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Congrats, you and the other autist are sharing a language unknown to the rest of humanity, for whom "crafting" in games means having a mechanical system - not fixing up Guarda Revanche or converting "hunting rifle" into "scoped hunting rifle".
It's more like you can't fathom that what Baldur's Gate 2 does is thematically considered crafting. Yes, it is not the kind of mechanical crafting that the other games have, but I said that already too, so it shouldn't be a revelation for you either.

The irony.

tenor.gif
 

Harthwain

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Depends on the uniqueness of the item. If you need the unique golden dragon scale for him to forge the unique golden sword, then the game is just using the blacksmith for flavor instead of having the dragon drop the sword. If he's there in the hub and you can give him 2 wood and 1 iron ingot for 20 arrows, then it's "crafting" as commonly understood (again using the blacksmith for flavor, this time with the objective of limiting crafting to the safe town area).
I would go deeper: It depends on how you approach loot in general. You can make non-humanoids drop artifacts, but you can decide against it. If you do, then you will get man-made items by killing humanoids. Or you can make them yourself. Or find someone who will make them for you. And while I agree it is entirely possible to treat crafting as a flavor, I think crating has the potential advantage there, provided you allow the player to get custom-made items (or a wide choice of mutually exclusive stuff), rather than fixed rewards (which you could get from monsters as loot).
 

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