Dishonored by Arkane

[MadMaxHellfire]

sandboxy

now somewhat bigger maps are enough to label a game "sandboxy"?

 

[sea]

EDIT: And sea, where did I say I was stopping because the tutorial sucked? I predicted, based on what little I'd played, that the game would hold my interest for a few more days. I'll let you know if I was wrong.

Fair enough. And you're right: the game does not have the gameplay depth of Deus Ex, or rather it suffers from the issues Invisible War did of ultimately having too small levels and enemies that are too easy to beat, as well as unlocking all the interesting upgrades in one play-through. But, judging the stealth and level design elements based on the tutorial is not really fair - these get far better as the game goes on, though sadly they also kind of peak halfway and the developers never figured out how to expand it beyond the basics (giving you access to all those powers from the start but never requiring you actually use any advanced techniques to win is the main issue).

 

[Multidirectional]

unlocking all the interesting upgrades in one play-through.

My first playthrough was strictly stealthy and mostly non-lethal so I found only few upgrades that supported that playthrough. I upgraded them all before end. I found the game fun enough to give it another run as a murdering maniac and there are bunch of useful upgrades for it that I haven't touched before. Only really shit power seems to be Dark Vision, no way I'm touching that ever, description makes it seem like a game ruining power. I'm glad they balanced the game around Blink, not Dark Vision, I think it would be way worse if Dark Vision was forced. Blink is actually quite fun to use.

 

[JarlFrank]

Alright, I don't want to read through 40+ pages just to get an idea about this games strengths and weaknesses. Can some of our more vocal prestigious members ( sea, JarlFrank, Haba, etc.) give me a pros and cons quick list? Still not sure what to think of this game and should I pay money for it? Is it modern day popamole or something better?

I'm going to write an official 'dex review this week(end), where I'll compare it to Thief and Deus Ex and debate whether it's worth playing if you liked those games.
I know it's not an RPG but Bee suggested that I should review it anyway and who am I to refuse a woman.

 

[Black]

I for one thought you were an assertive alpha male.
But I've been wrong before.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

So, how much of the game changes?

If i kill everyone will i get fucktons of zombies?

 

[SoupNazi]

Maybe because tutorials in a lot of cases give a pretty good idea of the actual game and gameplay? Oh fuck how is that possible??

Sorry, can you name 10?

 

[M0RBUS]

Finished it. The first five hours of gameplay, that included getting to know the gameplay mechanics and replaying the first two missions twice because I wanted to do it right, were very enjoyable. Halfway through the game I was bored because of the mechanics and was pretty much rushing through it all. If only the storyline wasn't so dull and uninspired, I'd rate this game a bit higher than 10€-worth.

Which is still better than most.

Unfortunately.

The good:
- it has AWESOME gameplay mechanics for a small arcade spy game (which it isn't, so this kind of counts as a bad)
- the setting is pretty cool looking and well thought of (for the most part, it's way more robust than the vast majority of original settings I've seen lately)
- the world reacts well, in the little things, to the stuff you do(n't do). With a few glaring exceptions.

The bad:
- the level design is boring and repetitive except for a couple of situations
- there aren't enough non-lethal paths
- the detection system is buggy
- being on the lookout for every item in the level feels like a chore because it's such a massive advantage to have the charms and the money and the schematics and the runes
- the powers and the upgrades are way overpowered. The last level I killed everyone without being noticed always running everywhere and using blink. It wasn't fun, it was just "oh darn, yet another guard"
- the ending is dull and unimpressive

The ugly:
- I wish I could blame this on the console version, but I really think this is simply a matter of wanting to do a good mainstream game with a good premise (gameplay-wise). If you're going to spend all that money and resources in full voice overs and marketing and pretty graphics (and they are pretty on the PC version), you'd better settle down and design a dumb game that doesn't try to be anything good. That way maybe it'll be passable. This way, Dishonored is just a failed attempt at making a new Thief, which, let's all be honest, is EASY to do if you set your mind to it and are not restrained by the producer wanting a shiny game with lots of blood and grit for the kids. Yes, I'm blaming it on Bethesda, of course.

Could it really be any other way?

 

[Monocause]

Finally giving it a try. Digging it so far, though after completing the overseer mission I think I'll restart with an ironman mindset (that is, saving often but reloading only when I die). I get the feeling that savescumming and 'powergaming' (in this game's context it would mean obsessively looking for the optimal solution with minimum risks and maximum rewards) is going to make this one boring quick.

Also, one shouldn't aim for a 100% non-lethal playthrough. Here it's just boring; better do as most players would do and generally try not to kill but don't refrain from murder if you're in a tight spot. I had a 100% clean run of both the prison and the overseer mission and I haven't noticed any reactivity, I think the game just tracks your chaos rating and reacts accordingly.

The game is fully playable and much more enjoyable when you resist savescumming, turn off markers and, like MD said, avoid the dark vision ability.

 

[circ]

Maybe because tutorials in a lot of cases give a pretty good idea of the actual game and gameplay? Oh fuck how is that possible??

Sorry, can you name 10?

Ok... I guess?

XCOM Enemy Unknown. Torchlight II. Arkham City. Dawn of War. Skyrim. Dungeon Siege III. Mass Effect 3. Dragon Age 2. Final Fantasy VI. Dishonored.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Further notes:

Not sure if I was too harsh to say "clunky" or if I've simply gotten used to the clunkyness but I'm finding the gameplay mechanics suitable (certain elements like "Blink" almost feel like an exploit as I find myself overusing it instead of thinking harder about different path choices) if not disappointingly simple. If you're going to make navigating this easy it might as well feel fun (Batman Arkham City/Asylum) which this never really does...it usually just feels clumsy. That said, there are certainly some positives.

• I like that you can turn the hand-holding UI consolekiddie bullshit off. Not having an objective marker/quest compass is contributing greatly to my enjoyment of this game (and, I'm sure, valuable time wasted but hey...).
• I am pleasantly surprised the game, while not exactly "sandboxy" as somebody stated, is as open and vast as it is. DE:HR is a fucking railroad in comparison and I enjoyed that game (it was good for what it was).
• I am starting to really enjoy the art direction (even though the caricature style was off-putting to me at first) . I love the strangely off-kilter steampunk meets Lovecraft design of the items and "otherworld" material.
• I think money wasted on voice acting is one of the greatest crimes committed to gaming but...knowing and accepting this fact I must say: Brad Fucking Dourif.
• The abundance of literature and backstory is great (I'm glad developers of AAA titles are actually bothering and/or gambling that people either can or will still read shit in a videogame aimed primarily at console-idiotmoney).
• Ignored the "See through walls" ability at first so that I could save for my first choice of inhabiting animals/humans. I love this idea and I'm a sucker for this kind of shit.

Now that I've said a few nice things...I'm just going to say that I can tell I'm still going to get bored with this and not finish it.

 

[SoupNazi]

Ok... I guess?

XCOM Enemy Unknown. Torchlight II. Arkham City. Dawn of War. Skyrim. Dungeon Siege III. Mass Effect 3. Dragon Age 2. Final Fantasy VI. Dishonored.

XCOM Enemy Unknown.
- haven't played
Torchlight II
- haven't played
Arkham City
- a linear script-driven walkthrough full of pointless cutscenes that's slow as fuck and in no way telling about the rest of the game which is open-worlded and awesome
Dawn of War
- haven't played
Skyrim
- is a shit game in the first place, so I don't see how that counts
DS3, ME3, DA2
- same case as Skyrim
Final Fantasy VI
- OK
Dishonored
- Mostly linear, even though it does say something about the more linear parts of the game, those are few and inbetween. In any other mission that's in an interior you still have more than one way to progress through it, several entry points, rooms connected like in an actual building and not a linear corridor to the end

Also, one shouldn't aim for a 100% non-lethal playthrough. Here it's just boring; better do as most players would do and generally try not to kill but don't refrain from murder if you're in a tight spot. I had a 100% clean run of both the prison and the overseer mission and I haven't noticed any reactivity, I think the game just tracks your chaos rating and reacts accordingly.

Yeah, agreed. Screws up are a part of the game and it's fun when you're sneaking up on a guard and he turns so you have to kill him and then quickly hoist him over your shoulder and jump out of the window so the coming backup doesn't see you and the body.

Not sure if I was too harsh to say "clunky" or if I've simply gotten used to the clunkyness but I'm finding the gameplay mechanics suitable (certain elements like "Blink" almost feel like an exploit as I find myself overusing it instead of thinking harder about different path choices) if not disappointingly simple. If you're going to make navigating this easy it might as well feel fun (Batman Arkham City/Asylum) which this never really does...it usually just feels clumsy. That said, there are certainly some positives.

I felt that way (about it not being fun when you stealth through using Blink) as well, then I started killing when necessary and using all the abilities more. Drop assassinations, complicated ways to kill 3 guards as fast as possible before backup arrives, running from being outnumbered... it's just more fun. I'm surprised you say it's clunky though, it's one of the few games in recent gaming history where I felt movement of the PC and environment interaction wasn't static and clunky like in other console games.

 

[circ]

Umh ok. You ask me for 10 examples and then disregard the majority because you either haven't played them - valid enough; or because they're crap. That makes no sense.
The point of tutorials is to introduce the player to the game mechanics, and there's no game without its mechanics. Atmosphere and the rest are secondary, if an integral part. So I happen to think tutorials are a perfectly good glimpse into the wider picture. And in the case of Arkham City, which you call awesome, the tutorial shows very well what the game offers, because it might be as you say, 'open-worlded', but nothing happens in said open-world. It's like a miniscule collection of movie sets with an endless supply of mobiles waiting for you to test your combo skills on. Then again, you might be dazzled by these very same set-pieces and ignore that the game has very little to offer.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Just kidnapped Rasputin and I'm kinda bummed. First two (Or three) missions I did I did non-lethal and choked people out, for this kidnapping mission I ghosted it, playing on very hard with quest compass and assists and crap off. Few times I saved and just went nuts stabbing everyone were more fun I gotta say, but I ran into the same thing in Human Revolution after a while where I just stopped giving a shit about being stealthy and wanted to move on.

For all Deadly Shadow's console popamole multiple loading screen missions and climbing gloves instead of rope arrows I still say it was a worthy Thief game, and it's definitely a better sneaker than either Dishonored or DXHR. Not entirely beside myself with impotent rage over buying this for $40 (Or was it $45?) but it's probably my biggest mistake in game pricepoint guessing in quite a while.

 

[Monocause]

Yeah, agreed. Screws up are a part of the game and it's fun when you're sneaking up on a guard and he turns so you have to kill him and then quickly hoist him over your shoulder and jump out of the window so the coming backup doesn't see you and the body.

Exactly! Speaking of which, are there any enemies later in the game who can regain consciousness after you knock them out? I had great fun piling up unconscious folks in stupidly inaccessible places and it'd be great if they could wake up somehow. Perhaps there's at least a console cheat that wakes them up?

 

[SoupNazi]

Umh ok. You ask me for 10 examples and then disregard the majority because you either haven't played them - valid enough; or because they're crap. That makes no sense.
The point of tutorials is to introduce the player to the game mechanics, and there's no game without its mechanics. Atmosphere and the rest are secondary, if an integral part. So I happen to think tutorials are a perfectly good glimpse into the wider picture. And in the case of Arkham City, which you call awesome, the tutorial shows very well what the game offers, because it might be as you say, 'open-worlded', but nothing happens in said open-world. It's like a miniscule collection of movie sets with an endless supply of mobiles waiting for you to test your combo skills on. Then again, you might be dazzled by these very same set-pieces and ignore that the game has very little to offer.

The issue is exactly that - the tutorial is meant to make the player familiar, not have him enjoy it. It closes off numerous options and is in no way telling of how the game really will be. Take for example Hitman: Blood Money, where the biggest mistake of the developer/publisher was to release the tutorial of the game as a demo. It was a completely linear, scripted experience that in no way presented the game as what it is - a sandbox hitman simulator that gives you nearly infinite options how to tackle each objective. I replayed Blood Money probably a hundred times now, just jumping into a mission and thinking of a new, crazier and harder way to beat it. If I were to judge it entirely on the tutorial level and without playing the other Hitman games, I never would have picked it up.

Or take DX:HR, which had a horrible tutorial full of once again scripted scenes, taking place in one long linear corridor, without the abilities that made the game what it is later on. Hell, even the original Deus Ex didn't have a good tutorial, but at least it was optional.

The thing is that you spend just a few minutes, one mission, in the tutorial, and the game can be entirely different. A tutorial is never telling of the rest of the game precisely because of that. In Dishonored, the majority of the game mechanics that make it so great (and which you say should be introduced in the tutorial) aren't even available in the tutorial. They are later on, and the game improves significantly.

tl;dr a bad tutorial doesn't mean a bad game and a good tutorial doesn't mean a good game.

Arkham City had numerous missions take place in the city itself, it just wasn't as spectacular because it wasn't as scripted so it seemed like the focus was elsewhere. But personally I found those the most enjoyable.

Exactly! Speaking of which, are there any enemies later in the game who can regain consciousness after you knock them out? I had great fun piling up unconscious folks in stupidly inaccessible places and it'd be great if they could wake up somehow. Perhaps there's at least a console cheat that wakes them up?

I don
t know about that, but someone did say that guards woke up for them when they quickloaded a lot. There are unfortunately no enemies that wake up, and I'm not even sure if other guards can wake them up?

 

[Raghar]

I'm going to write an official 'dex review this week(end), where I'll compare it to Thief and Deus Ex and debate whether it's worth playing if you liked those games.

It's not a Thief, and it would be stupid to compare it too much to a game where main goal was stealthing stuff without killing anyone. This is about assassin and stealthing around, or not killing anyone is just a bonus, not a goal. You can kill your enjoyment by doing that.

 

[circ]

Not that I'm going to try this but since you brought up Thief, stealthing and assassin - how does this compare to AP? Are there guns/gunskills, or is it all dagger/upgraded dagger/magic? Is there a 3rd person view?

 

[potatojohn]

The gameplay is way better than AP. There are guns (well, one gun, and lots of upgrades). There's no TPP.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'm going to write an official 'dex review this week(end), where I'll compare it to Thief and Deus Ex and debate whether it's worth playing if you liked those games.

It's not a Thief, and it would be stupid to compare it too much to a game where main goal was stealthing stuff without killing anyone. This is about assassin and stealthing around, or not killing anyone is just a bonus, not a goal. You can kill your enjoyment by doing that.

Or you can enhance your enjoyment by doing that if that kind of gameplay is your thing.

 

[sea]

Playing through Dunwall Tower right now. Fun mission, challenging, guard patrols are actually quite tight and having good timing is important, however...

Fucking respawns.

Fuck you Arkane, that shit is just not fun. I don't like choking a guard and dragging his body away only to find 30 seconds later the exact same guard has returned to his old patrol route and spots me from dropping off his own goddamn body!

 

[Monocause]

I'm going to write an official 'dex review this week(end), where I'll compare it to Thief and Deus Ex and debate whether it's worth playing if you liked those games.

It's not a Thief, and it would be stupid to compare it too much to a game where main goal was stealthing stuff without killing anyone. This is about assassin and stealthing around, or not killing anyone is just a bonus, not a goal. You can kill your enjoyment by doing that.

Or you can enhance your enjoyment by doing that if that kind of gameplay is your thing.

Not really, I don't think so. Stealth is neither challenging nor rewarding enough in this game for it to become a gameplay staple; it works when it's one of the things you do, but when you limit yourself to stealth only the fun factor in this game starts falling apart.

It's infinitely more enjoyable to creatively kill people in Dishonored than to avoid them/take them out non-lethally. It's infinitely more enjoyable to fight your way out when detected than to reload and do it right after reloading. The reason why is that it's not Thief. It's not a stealth game with action elements, at it's core it's an action game with stealth elements. If you use only stealth you cut yourself off the majority of the game mechanics and you end up blinking and reloading all the time, which gets boring quick.

sea:

Respawns happen in areas where there's a lot of guards, but it might not have been a respawn. There's a nifty mechanic in this game which I found in the Overseer mission. I see two overseers, I strangle one of them and then blink away because the other was just about to detect me. Then I hear the other overseer saying: "Someone should be on guard duty here!" and know what, the other overseer took over the strangled one's patrol route. You might've stumbled into an awesome AI routine in action instead of a respawn. Actually, I'm quite sure that's the case.

Respawn amounts do seem to vary by area. For example, during my "let's break the game!" sessions I butchered everyone in the streets in the first mission (the area before reaching Holger square), no respawn. They did respawn inside the head office, but frankly, it makes sense and isn't jarring in any way as the area should be expected to be crawling with zealots. The only jarring thing about it was that some of the corpses I left behind disappeared.

Code-wise, I'd wager that some of the placed actors are set as 'permanent' and some as respawnable. It makes sense to assume that respawn is coupled with corpse's disappearance to preserve precious console memory and prevent amassing ridiculous corpse hoards and that's why it's unlikely that the guy who nabbed you was a respawn of the corpse you're carrying.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'll most likely play through this again, this time with a more actiony approach, so I'll see how that turns out.

 

[Infinitron]

Yahtzee: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=videos

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Fucking respawns.

Seriously?! Fucking UGH.

 

[Jaedar]

Playing through Dunwall Tower right now. Fun mission, challenging, guard patrols are actually quite tight and having good timing is important, however...

Fucking respawns.

Fuck you Arkane, that shit is just not fun. I don't like choking a guard and dragging his body away only to find 30 seconds later the exact same guard has returned to his old patrol route and spots me from dropping off his own goddamn body!

Are you sure its not another guard?

I noticed in the golden paw mission that if a guard is patrolling and sees another guard missing, they can actually switch patrol routes.