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Does deeper TES:Lore mean anything at all in the game

Discussion in 'Bethesda Game Studios' started by Gangrelrumbler, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    http://tomorrowindtoday.com/a-model-of-the-godhead-and-its-contents-2/
    Does any of this shit have any meaning in the games? I don't think I've ever seen a fantasy world with methaphysical backstory as convoluted as this.
    IIRC the only things all this texts explain are:
    -How all the endings of Daggerfall came to be
    -How Dagoth Ur invaded people's dreams
    -How do the Elder Scrolls work
    -Why was Cyrodill a forest and not a jungle in Oblivion
    -How was Alduin sent in to the future
    My other question. If all this crap is not going to matter in the games why bother writing it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
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  2. Morkar Left Guest

    Morkar Left
    Playing games doesn't matter, too. Why bother playing them? Or, more strangely, read books?
     
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  3. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    Reading a long guide to a game I'm not actually going to play would be a better analogy.
     
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  4. SCO Arcane In My Safe Space

    SCO
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    The answer to this is that autism spectrum game designers/writers make the best lore. This is not a criticism. Michael Kirkbride was fantastic for TES. But also. Irrelevant. Because the audience... just... doesn't care.

    Because they're stupid.

    So he was fired.

    It's probably a bit fascinating to know the details of the morrowind-oblivion studio transitions - the kind of ad-hoc rationalizations and cognitive dissonance on the writing team must have had going on during the explicit infantilization of TES and subsequent lore haircut when the motive is just obviously not to antagonize the intended audience. The way they tried to keep the stuff on the low-down is amusing.
     
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  5. pippin Guest

    pippin
    It's part of the simulation aspect. You have all those books to carry around just like you could pick everything up in Ultima.
    You aren't forced to read the books though, which makes it look like an apparent waste of time and space.
     
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  6. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    It's impossible to implement some of the stuff in practical gameplay anyway. Good luck designing a convincing Moonshadow, a plane " so beautiful that visiting mortals are half-blinded. The realm contains flowers and waterfalls, majestic trees, and a city of silver, and the wind smells of perfume"

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Sul Savant

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    What a load of horseshit. He was fired because of drinking and drugs problem. It has nothing to do with his writing, so much in fact that when they don't employ him as freelancer (like it was the case with Knights of The Nine), they still use the stuff he writes for the Imperial Library and the Official Lore Forums as inspiration (see Dragonborn main plot and several bits of Skyrim like the Civil War, painted cows and Many-Headed Talos).
    Not only that, but he isn't the only person responsible for the more strange side of TES. When at Bethesda he worked in duo with Ken Rolston.
     
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  8. SCO Arcane In My Safe Space

    SCO
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    You know what yourself? I don't believe Ken Rolston did anything good, considering that when he was let go of Bethesda, the first thing he went to do is Kingdoms of Alamur.
     
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  9. abnaxus Arcane Patron

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    IIRC Rolston wrote all dialogue with Vivec.
     
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  10. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

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    Half of this shit is not even in the books, it's just hinted but impossible to understand without the OOG context, like name dropping Godhead in Oblivion. Besides it's a waste when all quality writing goes into the things most people won't see. KoTN is the best exaple, Song of Pelimal was much more interesting than anything else that happened in that DLC.

    Yeah, but some of the stuff would be worth it implementing in the game. An NPC could achieve CHIM during the game, and disappear like Doctor Manhattan in Watchmen. People might send you (or things to you) through dreemsleve. You could find magical artifacts that defile laws of magic (casting spells from the schools that doesn't even exist) because they come from another dream. Thalmor might try to undo the world in the game and not in OOG materials. They could even avoid angering the spergs by doing all this shit in the DLC like Shivering Isles. Dragons might actually try to eat the world, creating void places in the world (something like black holes), etc. Most of these stuff is not even hard to explain if you don't tell it like a sperglord. "This character can understand nature of the universe better and therefore is able to alter reality", "People might be gods in their own universes", "Dragons aren't eating people, they are eating reality!". Sure it's convoluted, but if you break it down it's not much more complicated than your usual X-Men comic book or anything written by Grant Morrison.
     
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  11. Sjukob Arcane

    Sjukob
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    Let me quote myself

    I would recommend not to bother with TES lore , because it designed in a way that anything can happen there and explanation of events is poor .
     
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  12. Popiel Arcane Patron

    Popiel
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    Because making fiction for sake of fiction itself can be pretty entertaining for multitude of reasons, some of them laid down by Tolkien in his many works on function of fables and tales, and fantastique in general.

    I myself am very much into TES lore in it's most bizarre form, that is memospores, c0da and all that jazz. Reading it is just entertaining, for me, personally. It's thought-provoking, at very least. Kirkbride himself... I don't like the guy. He's arrogant jackass, calling him a smart- one would even be too much, he actually believes there is magic inside of 36 Lessons and so on. Still, what he provides can be really intriguing. That's also one of the reasons why Morrowind is a fan-favourite among the lorebuffs, touch of MK is heaviest in this, and from Morrowind it all truly comes (Morrowind and Redguard to be exact).

    Yes... and no. TES as a franchise can be generally divided in two parts - Arena-Daggerfall era, when everything was generic, and era after Redguard-Morrowind(-Battlespire) duo(trio), which in fact created TES as we know it. This was necessary due to the nature of Daggerfall ending. Invention of the Dragon Break led to the the creation of complex aedric/daedric/magna-ge mythology, that led to the Jills, that by the way led to the PGE1 and all of this obscure, strange stuff deeper TES lore is full of. Just read c0da or Prophet of Landfall, or KINMUNE, about wars between Hist and some strange voidical creatures fought in 9Era by the means of 16dimensional cannons.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
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  13. abnaxus Arcane Patron

    abnaxus
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    After lots of discussions, in the appointed day, 21st First Seed, the Council gathers in the Hogithum Hall in the Imperial City and ready to perform the summoning. The air is thick with clouds of incense. Ainoryl begins his incantation. "Hir ylu ghelibrulen, cojet handu alu ma. En sen di toen ambri el. En ense el ambiolis cemn solu neht, solu sequesenhet. Cortu den se bjhaten kalem ir ne trame se vasdo nipex sooh. Se mehwe quesne lirrimo si treste atu del. Azura en Vehk garjes mustra, cen cae sirtremil trenbien. Je en el entra se, Je en eltru cemn setru natra seen olon."

    Then Azura appears, "AZURA IS COME"

    Allerleirauh says, "Gracious Azura, Prince of Moonshadow, Mother of the Rose, Queen of the Night Sky, we who are assembled here seek your wisdom, according to the ancient custom, on this your sacred day, the 21st day of First Seed, called Hogithum. We thank you for favoring us with your presence and we hope that you will indulge us regarding the matter which lies before us now."

    Azura: "YES I AM PLEASED"

    Nigedo: "Great Azura, Vehk of the Tribunal, known also as the god-king Vivec, has submitted himself to our judgement, according to Dunmer law. We understand that the Hortator Indoril Nerevar required Vehk and the other Tribunes to swear that they would never to use the tools of Kagrenac and that they swore this oath upon your name. We also understand that Vehk then murdered Indoril Nerevar and, foreswearing their oath, the Tribunal used the tools of Kagrenac to make themselves the gods of the Dunmer. Further, we understand that you swore you would cause Nerevar to return and avenge himself against the Tribunal and now your servant, the Nerevarine Incarnate, has destroyed Kagrenac's enchantments upon the Heart of Lorkhan, severing the Tribunal's connection to the source of their power and making them mortal again. For these reasons, because you are intimately tied to these events, and because you have witnessed what is long past as no other has, we hope that you will share your insight by answering some questions we have prepared for you."

    Azura: "GIFTS? WRAITHRING SHADOW MONSTER CROWN STAR GOOD QUESTION"

    However Vivec halts the preceeding, "Silence. There will be no questions. This is something different now."

    Azura: "DEVIL DEVIL MOCK DEVIL DEVIL SPEAK NOT"

    Vivec: "Rude spirit, you should never have come. Not here. Not to the world of the liars, where your power is fleshed to law, bound by the bones of the compromise. Shallow changer, whorescamp, say you that you rule dusk and dawn? Let me show you the power of the true Dawn, when Gods walked."

    Azura: "WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHAT IS THAT I FEEL?"

    Vivec: "I am the Thief of this World, with stars, and by my Charges I put you down."

    A shadow leaves Vivec, snapping off him to wrap around the Daedric Prince, cracking the air as it stiffens.

    Vivec: "With my Charges I put you down. By this Shadow, I call your neonymic forth, your chosen throne, sundown and sunrise, death and birth of shadow. You are bound to this place."

    Azura: "WHAT NO DEVIL PLEASE NO NO NO"

    Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."

    Azura: "NO DEVIL NO PLEASE STOP"

    Ainroyl steps forward. His eyes are dead. But he smiles anyway.

    Vivec: "Do you remember which mortal you bound herein with your jealousy and your spite? She has need of vengeance, too. GHARTOK PAHOME."

    Ainoryl explodes. "Milord...serve..." Viscera shower the crowd.

    Vivec: "These are my people, Azura. See how they serve? You should have stayed replaced." Vehk nods to Nigedo, his bravest. "Nigedo, curse this heshe-bitch as she has done our people."

    Nigedo: "Lattice-bound creature of the Ever Now, experience for yourself the inexorable progress of the Wheel, know the drumming torment of Time giving way to Time and share in the despair of souls trapped within the Dragon's Boned Cage."

    Vivec: "By this Lover, I call your protonymic forth, your secret throne, youth and return, the lover's morning, the loved one's end. You are buried in this place."

    A shape unfolds from within Azura's Star and coalesces into a lovely female form.

    "And so, the last of those you called "False Gods" seeks his revenge against you, Azura; you, false to me, false to all my people, petty and vengeful spirit, enemy of all my happiness. It is I, Azura, I whom you never thought to see again. You swore in the Halls of Oblivion that no mortal such as I was worthy to be paired with a Prince of the Daedra. You thought, by binding me within this prison of your own invention, to place me forever beyond the reach of one who can transcend the bounds of life and death - my love, my soul - to stop even my rebirth into the world in another form, lest we two find one another again. You have lost and I have won. But what I have suffered at your hands I will not forget, not though I die a thousand deaths and live a thousand lifetimes. It is your turn, Azura, Mother of the Blasted Canker, Stain upon the Night Sky, Prince of nothing but your own envy. May you be cast into outermost darkness and uttermost cold. May you cry out to those who loved you and hear nothing, not even your own voice. Never again show yourself in this fair form to the mortal fools who have been your slaves; and let what is offered to you be carried, steaming and redolent of spices, to my Lord's table. My Lord, my lover who would never have forsaken me, Clavicus Vile!"

    Azura: "GAHAAAAA NO NO NO PLEASE NO WHATTTTTTttT NO DEVIL PLEASE NO I CANNOT"

    Vivec: "There now. Better. How does one feel when weighted down by their heaviest of mysteries? When one gazes into their soul and sees their own eyes staring back? Perhaps it's how my brother felt, folding into himself like a prism until your darts were thrown, nymic sel sulimet elhnodidan, thought thinking thought. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my brother's wasting I eat you."

    Azura: "I CANNOT FEEL CANNOT WHAT FEEL CANNOT WHO FEEL THIS WHAT I CANNOT"

    In the confusion, some scholars tried to stop Vivec, but Vivec magically silence them. Then Vivec draws forth the antlers, breaking off one of its bloodied tips.

    Vivec: "Recognize this? The blood, I mean, not the silly bone-frozen Bosmer. No? It's from one of yours. He died in your name. And so by the blood of this khajiit, I climb you, moon and moon, and Dance on your Tower. AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you. AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you."

    Azura: "CHIM? HOW?"

    Vivec assembles a spear from the bones of his armor.

    Vivec: "Here, this is Muatra. Guess what it represents."

    Vivec stuffs Muatra into Azura's mouth. Azura chokes!

    Vivec: "YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART"

    Azura explodes.

    Vivec: "HA HA HA HA HA HA I give my thanks to all assembled, my dumb, deaf dreamers! You've proven a convicing ruse for so long now! I would ask that you bear me no ill will for my use of you, but I am Vivec, born of powers which should have forever been unalike, Vehk and Vehk, murderer of the last and last, anon ALMSIVI, whose name is Alive, and so really do not care! HA HA HA HA HA HA My vengeance on this prophesying harlot has waited an age! I am DONE! Good night, my whirling, my snowskin, my silent doubter! Good night, the dead! Good night, the law! Good night, the madness and the worm! Good night, scholar and sword! Good night all who have spoken or lurked or cast stone! Good night, for Vehk and Vehk shall speak here NO MORE! This was my last gift to all of you, which as they all have ever been, was a gift unto MYSELF! The time of the Empire is come! Good night! Farewell! I am VIVEC."

    Halted, Vivec says, "Oh, yes, the ringlet. What was this for, you might wonder. Here:"

    Vivec places ringlet in his mouth, and a Voice issues out.

    "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator."

    Vivec removes ringlet

    Vivec: "VIVEC WROTE THIS"

    Vivec vanishes. And then the revenge of Vivec against Azura is finished. Vivec uses his own trial in order to bind and banish the Prince of Dusk and Dawn after what the Prince did to the Chimer/Dunmer and the Tribunal. After this event, the regular gateways to Moonshadow, the realm of Azura, is inaccessible. Whether this has to do with the unlawful incidents at Hogithum Hall in the Capital City or mere whim of Azura herself, no one can say.
     
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  14. Popiel Arcane Patron

    Popiel
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    Ah, the Trial. Entertaining piece of fiction.
     
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  15. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    It's pretty shitty IMO.
     
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  16. Popiel Arcane Patron

    Popiel
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    Entertaining =/= good. Still, it serves its purpose.
     
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  17. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    So does Fallout 3. It's still not a good game.
     
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  18. Popiel Arcane Patron

    Popiel
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    F3 is entertaining for you? Oh well...
     
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  19. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
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    The writing department of Bethesda has been fucked since the days of Morrowind.

    The writings are pretentious. convoluted. and worst of all, can not make readers care about its pretention and convolutions.

    We play Bethesda games despite its writings, from dialog down to item description, not because of it.

    If they ever want to change it, it's necessary to kick out everyone ever write a text for the games, and getting new blood. Cause they aint got any worse than this.

    To answer OP's question, Gangrelrumbler , they keep writing them because they are pretentious. They believe that their writings are good and draw players in. All signs indicate that.
     
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  20. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    No, but it served it purpose. It was supposed to be a dumb FPS/RPG hybrid in a world resembling Fallout's and it was.
     
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  21. Drax Arcane

    Drax
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    TES lore is best lore.
    Also, Vivec's a douche but cool nonetheless.
     
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  22. Metro Arcane Beg Auditor

    Metro
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    I always thought TES lore was shit and barely paid attention to it.
     
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  23. Drax Arcane

    Drax
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    If you're a storyfag you're missing big time.
    If you're not, it's ok you're not missing anything.
     
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  24. TheHeroOfTime Arcane

    TheHeroOfTime
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    I always considered the TES lore as a something interesting to read. They brings the undertone to the game that the most of the main story never does in any game. I'm consider myself as a TES fan (Do you ear that? the sound of the stones that are approaching my head) and the fact that the secondaries missions/storylines and the lore in the books are better written and better planted that the main storyline always bothered me.
     
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  25. Jozoz Augur

    Jozoz
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    Imagine a world where you had to read books and interpret what people said to you to find out where to go next instead of blindly following the quest marker.
     
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