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Does deeper TES:Lore mean anything at all in the game

Curious_Tongue

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Does deeper TES:Lore mean anything at all in the game

If you get into it, you start "feeling" the culture and history surrounding individual NPCs.

So yeah, it can change the game experience.
 

Popiel

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Morrowind benefits the most from effect described above. After more than a decade I don't think I would ever be able to ever look at this game the same as I did all those years ago - now that I know about all the lore behind Nerevar, Voryn/Dagoth Ur, Azura, Tiber, Vivec, Sil, Almalexia, the Dwemer and the Dunmer - all of that taken from obscure in-game texts, but mostly from outside the game. Like a true myth, story of Morrowind flourishes outside its main source. Oblivion and Skyrim never ever came even tiny little bit close to replicating what Morrowind did.
 
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Just for clarification. I don't consider Daedras, Dwemers or rare books a deeplore, at least not in the context of this thread. I was talking about Godhead, Chim, C0das and shit like that. Basically thinks explained in the links I provided. Myths, legends and stuff is a standard fantasy lore most universes has and it actually is important to the games. Unlike dreemsleeves and shit like that.
 

Popiel

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Well, c0da is desired by MK ending for Morrowind, so that's that. You also need to go deep to know what exactly is a Red Moment, what happened with the Dwemer, what's the stuff with Lorkhan, Akatosh, Lorkhatosh and Tower of I and CHIM. All of this is necessary to have an experience with Morrowind I described above.
 

Beastro

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Yes... and no. TES as a franchise can be generally divided in two parts - Arena-Daggerfall era, when everything was generic, and era after Redguard-Morrowind(-Battlespire) duo(trio), which in fact created TES as we know it. This was necessary due to the nature of Daggerfall ending. Invention of the Dragon Break led to the the creation of complex aedric/daedric/magna-ge mythology, that led to the Jills, that by the way led to the PGE1 and all of this obscure, strange stuff deeper TES lore is full of. Just read c0da or Prophet of Landfall, or KINMUNE, about wars between Hist and some strange voidical creatures fought in 9Era by the means of 16dimensional cannons.

Problem is so much of TES Lore that's ground and pertinent to Tamriel is vague and mysterious. That would be fine if it was a part of the series of games that were limited, but for an ever evolving franchise it just makes me frustrated. What was strange and interesting becomes full of indifference once you realize there won't be any answers.

To make matters worse you have them keep adding new shit in places that aren't pertinent. I don't give a damn about all that shit going on in the cosmology at large when we have more pressing things at hand on Tamriel itself, much less the rest of the planet its taking place on.

I think a huge problem about TES is related to the what you first mention in this paragraph: The two eras of TES, only after Morrowind the series returned to being generic fantasy, only it now had this strange baggage it couldn't get rid of so they keep plodding along carrying it in the background knowing it interests people and keep shoving generic fantasy into the foreground. All Morrowind did was give them a in-world reason to retcon shit to be less odd and more generic when they suited it, like with Cyrodiil.

The sad fact is so many TES lovers want the franchise to continue on the course set by MW, but it keeps going in the direction of Oblivion in much the same way the Fallout fanbase now consists of of the pre and post-Beth groups (The post-Oblivion Bethesda) because Oblivion brought in a new influx of fans that want more of the same, only improved (Skyrim), like FO3 did.

If you get into it, you start "feeling" the culture and history surrounding individual NPCs.

So yeah, it can change the game experience.

You have to meet the player halfway and TES lore is such a work it prevents most people from digging deeper because it too much work for a fucking video game premise.

I still barely have an idea of what shit like CHIM and et al are because whenever I expect an answer to be given I get more vague BS shoved in my face. Not simply from the Lore but from the fans who are into it that come off condition to the point where they can't say anything plainly and directly.

what's the stuff with Lorkhan, Akatosh, Lorkhatosh and Tower of I and CHIM. All of this is necessary to have an experience with Morrowind I described above.

Lorkhatoshwhatnow?

It's shit like this where, even if you try to dig into it, there's still vague shit you never know of. And I know mean stuff you don't know of in the sense of there being so much lore you haven't gotten around to spots ala reading up on real history.

And when it comes down to it, the "meta" game and "lore being one and people in the game being aware of the game and fiddling with it" angle cheapens and weakens the premise because there's so much "anything goes" crap. I'd rather stick to grounded, world focused cosmology about the creation and the interaction between Aedra and Daedra like ideas around Lorkhan being a Deadra agent in Aedra form that caused the Aedra to sent an Aedrea in Daedra form, Jyggalag, in retaliation.
 
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Curious_Tongue

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I still barely have an idea of what shit like CHIM and et al are because whenever I expect an answer to be given I get more vague BS shoved in my face. Not simply from the Lore but from the fans who are into it that come off condition to the point where they can't say anything plainly and directly.

I didn't understand it either.

But since it connected to the lower-brow lore which I could (kinda) understand, I still found it interesting to read about in-game.
 

abnaxus

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The Scripture of the Numbers:

1. The Dragon Break, or the Tower. 1

2. The Enantiomorph. 68

3. The Invisible Gate, ALMSIVI. 112

4. The Corners of House of Troubles. 242

5. The Corners of the World. 100

6. The Walking Ways. 266

7. The Sword at the Center. 39

8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484

9. The Missing. 11

10. The Tribes of the Altmer. 140

11. The Number of the Master. 102

12. The Heavens. 379

13. The Serpent. 36

14. The King's Cough. 32

15. The Redeeming Force. 110

16. The Acceptable Blasphemes. 12

17. The Hurling Disk. 283

18. The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.

19. The Provisional House. 258

20. The Lunar Lattice. 425

21. The Womb. 13

22. Unknown. 453

23. The Hollow Prophet. 54

24. The Star Wound. 44

25. The Emperor. 239

26. The Rogue Plane. 81

27. The Secret Fire. 120

28. The Drowned Lamp. 8

29. The Captive Sage. 217

30. The Scarab. 10

31. The Listening Frame. 473

32. The False Call. 7

33. The Anticipations. 234

34. The Lawless Grammar. 2

35. The Prison-Shirt. 191

36. The Hours. 364

'The presence of deaf witness, this is what the numbers are. They hang onto the Aurbis as the last nostalgia of their godhood. The effigies of numbers are their current applications; this is folly, as above. To be affixed to a symbol is too, too certain.'

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
 

Metro

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Imagine a world where you had to read books and interpret what people said to you to find out where to go next instead of blindly following the quest marker.
Quest markers are more realistic...

image37.png
 

Mexi

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This guy named Ren the Crow that I killed in Requiem had all books for the "A Brief History of the Empire" set. I read them all, and I sure as hell didn't know that Uriel Septim IV was a dark-elf/Breton hybrid. I wonder why they had him labeled as an Imperial in Oblivion. I read something about hybrids being the race of their mother, which means that Uriel IV should be a dark-elf, right? I guess lore doesn't mean much.
 
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This guy named Ren the Crow that I killed in Requiem had all books for the "A Brief History of the Empire" set. I read them all, and I sure as hell didn't know that Uriel Septim IV was a dark-elf/Breton hybrid. I wonder why they had him labeled as an Imperial in Oblivion. I read something about hybrids being the race of their mother, which means that Uriel IV should be a dark-elf, right? I guess lore doesn't mean much.

Labeled where? Do we ever hear more about him? The dude we meet is Uriel VII, who is descended from a cousin of IV so his race is kind of inconsequential, though.

Oblivion has some other inconsistencies. Mankar Camoran should be a bosmer, since he's the son of a warlord from a traditional bosmer line and his "bosmeri mistress". I guess they thought an altmer would look more intimidating, though a typo of "altmeri mistress" is more likely. His race is kind of a big deal since being descended from ayleids is what apparently lets him wear the amulet of kings (some crackpot theories suggest that his diaries imply he made himself a dragonborn with the help of Mehrunes' razor, but that's probably too interesting to be true)

Chancellor Ocato was also changed from a breton (at least he looks like one in Daggerfall's intro) to an altmer.

Oh, yeah. If you're a necromancer, Ron is amazing. Dude can kill giants in a single blow with a greatsword. :salute:
 
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Mexi

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Labeled where? Do we ever hear more about him? The dude we meet is Uriel VII, who is descended from a cousin of IV so his race is kind of inconsequential, though.

Oblivion has some other inconsistencies. Mankar Camoran should be a bosmer, since he's the son of a warlord from a traditional bosmer line and his "bosmeri mistress". I guess they thought an altmer would look more intimidating, though a typo of "altmeri mistress" is more likely. His race is kind of a big deal since being descended from ayleids is what apparently lets him wear the amulet of kings (some crackpot theories suggest that his diaries imply he made himself a dragonborn with the help of Mehrunes' razor, but that's probably too interesting to be true)

Chancellor Ocato was also changed from a breton (at least he looks like one in Daggerfall's intro) to an altmer.

Oh, yeah. If you're a necromancer, Ron is amazing. Dude can kill giants in a single blow with a greatsword. :salute:
Shit, I got them mixed up then. I thought we met Uriel IV. Nevermind then.
 

Shadenuat

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Just finished Morrowind again (main quest). Some thoughts crossed my mind:
- I think finding Moon-and-Star might be my favorite hikingsettingfapping moment in games. Following obscure leads from tribals, flying around Vale of Winds and waiting sun to set to get into Azura's cave is just so powerful for a game with such crude and not very "alive" engine and systems.
- When it comes to Morrowind I don't find anything about it "obscure", in a sense where obscure might mean "too derp4u" & shallow. The story is explained very well. The lore dumps after finding Moon-and-Star and after becoming Hortator & Nerevar of 4 tribes paint the picture clear. Probably the only thing that remains obscure is who killed Nerevar, and I think it was important for it to remain so.
The obscure in like "bad" way is probably stuff like Skyrim's expansion about Hermaeus Mora, although, concidering what that daedra is about maybe they knew what they were doing. Still I'd much rather prefer the realities and answers of history that happened to shallow getaway of unsolved "mysteries".
- The true power of Morrowind's lore lie in how the world building is layered on a foundation of that huge historical event. That might sound banal and obvious but I just remembered a recent game that, actually, asked a question: what if gods are not real? And you know what's the difference between great world building and story telling and just a random question? It's that Morrowind, I think, also works with that same question, and it also answers it, and builds world, story and events during which player acts on top of it. The scope, the ambition, the work done to make player believe in reality of what is happening in Morrowind is truly unparalleled and I can't but think how shallow PoE's take on godbeing looks in comparison.
- Some say characters in Morrowind are rarely memorable and mostly bland. However, some characters are quite memorable. The reason for that is we often perceive what is "character" as a set of quirks, characteristics and appearance. Also we perceive characters on how they act. You know, Bioware-dialogue, some sort of alignment shifts, dialogue branches. Morrowind engine and story system are not that advanced to make characters act, and dialogue system is abstract. However, characters actually do act in Morrowind, even if they don't move somewhere or their relationship with PC remains distant. They have agenda and place in the world - especially in it's politics. Take Ranis Athrys for example. She doesn't have a lot of dialogue. But, if we look at her place in the world of Morrowind, a dunmer pro-mage guild ruthless telvanni-kicking sorceress is an interesting person, actually. Even if she doesn't have a lot of unique content about her.
- I think the cool thing about the story of Morrowind is that it's story is it's history. Sounds weird but I don't think I can say that it's story is it's setting, like in that New Vegas video. When I think of a setting being story I think about events, quirks and archetypes driving the story of the game, like in Fallout. Like, what happened after the War, and how postapoc world lives. I think Morrowind's story plays in the past for the most time. You replay the same act in many ways that happened on Red Mountain hundreds of years ago; you are just another from many Nerevarines (and you can meet their ghosts in game - false incarnates), and the whole main quest is essentialy a study of Morrowind's history, where you begin with Caius searching for legends about Nerevar and end with Vivec telling you his side of story. I think it's really cool when you think about it, being an actor in ancient Azura's play.

tl;dr Shadenuat polishes Vivec's ebony spear and says banalce since he did not replay Morrowind in quite a while, proceeds to replay Rise of House Telvanni. :dance:
 
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Popiel

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- When it comes to Morrowind I don't find anything about it "obscure", in a sense where obscure might mean "too derp4u" & shallow. The story is explained very well. The lore dumps after finding Moon-and-Star and after becoming Hortator & Nerevar of 4 tribes paint the picture clear. Probably the only thing that remains obscure is who killed Nerevar, and I think it was important for it to remain so.
The obscure in like "bad" way is probably stuff like Skyrim's expansion about Hermaeus Mora, although, concidering what that daedra is about maybe they knew what they were doing. Still I'd much rather prefer the realities and answers of history that happened to shallow getaway of unsolved "mysteries".
- The true power of Morrowind's lore lie in how the world building is layered on a foundation of that huge historical event. That might sound banal and obvious but I just remembered a recent game that, actually, asked a question: what if gods are not real? And you know what's the difference between great world building and story telling and just a random question? It's that Morrowind, I think, also works with that same question, and it also answers it, and builds world, story and events during which player acts on top of it. The scope, the ambition, the work done to make player believe in reality of what is happening in Morrowind is truly unparalleled and I can't but think how shallow PoE's take on godbeing looks in comparison.
:bravo:

That's exactly how I feel about Morrowind.

There are obviously more secrets there to be found outside of who killed Nerevar (and this knowledge can be acquired from the game itself, but without guidance it's shithard), but overall, yeah, you’ve got all the points.
 

Turjan

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I still barely have an idea of what shit like CHIM and et al are because whenever I expect an answer to be given I get more vague BS shoved in my face.
It's basically becoming one with the universe without losing yourself, your personality. Which is why you can then experience the universe and still have your own thoughts about it. You are one with it but still separate at the same time. It's a bit like Hindu ideas about godhood, where gods are immanent and transcendent at the same time.
 

Turjan

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TES as a franchise can be generally divided in two parts - Arena-Daggerfall era, when everything was generic, and era after Redguard-Morrowind(-Battlespire) duo(trio), which in fact created TES as we know it. This was necessary due to the nature of Daggerfall ending.
I think the Redguard-Morrowind era was the sweet spot in this regard. Then they decided to run over their setup with a steamroller in Oblivion, followed by leaving Kirkbride too much rope in Skyrim. I can't tell you who it was, but I guess Kirkbride must have had someone during the Redguard/Morrowind era who had real interest in what he wrote, but on the other hand kept the stuff grounded and wove it properly into the game story of Morrowind.
 

JarlFrank

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What makes Morrowind so special to me is how the world is rooted in its history, just like Shadenuat said. There are so many mysteries to discover, it's truly a game of exploration - every time you enter a major ruin you hope to find something interesting, and sometimes there is such a thing. It's about hearing ancient legends, vague prophecies, sketchy descriptions and following them. Some of my favourite quests were from the Imperial Cult, the ones where you had to hunt down artefacts while being given only a rough description of where they could be. This is pretty much the only game I know that works with exploration like this. There's nothing else that does such a thing.
 

Naveen

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CHIM is realizing you are playing a video game and you have amazing powers, like "save game" and "load game", and the editor. Then you become a God.

No, I guess all of that nonsense is not necessary, but thinking about the level of detailed insanity that Morrowind hides always makes me smile. I'm sure it would be possible to create a real esoteric sect based on the 36 Lessons of Vivec.

'The unity of my approach is understood by the immobile warrior. True eyes are acquired. Rejoice as my own subjects and realms. I build for you a city of swords, by which I mean laws that cut the people who live there into better shapes.'
 

Turjan

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CHIM is realizing you are playing a video game and you have amazing powers, like "save game" and "load game", and the editor. Then you become a God.
That would be the more prosaic version of it, yes :D.

I'm not sure whether I have ever seen a more convoluted version of telling the player "It's just a video game" when he thinks about inconsistencies from what happened in his Daggerfall to what happens in Morrowind. And I don't mean this in a negative way.
 

Popiel

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CHIM is not Nirvana - zero-sum is Nirvana, or closest thing to it. CHIM is actually anti-Nirvana - it's apotheosis of selfishnes, when I AM ALL but I AM STILL ME instead of zero-summing (I AM ALL I AM NOTHING). What Dagoth Ur was doing is Nega-CHIM (ALL ARE ME I AM EVERYTHING).
 

Beastro

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CHIM is realizing you are playing a video game and you have amazing powers, like "save game" and "load game", and the editor. Then you become a God.

Yeah that's the gist I got, it's just all the in-world explanation tripe that's mercurial.

That's ok for the lore, it's trying to dissect it outside of the game and coming to a place like this only to find the people who know the most about it continue to use the same BS.

What makes Morrowind so special to me is how the world is rooted in its history, just like Shadenuat said. There are so many mysteries to discover, it's truly a game of exploration - every time you enter a major ruin you hope to find something interesting, and sometimes there is such a thing. It's about hearing ancient legends, vague prophecies, sketchy descriptions and following them. Some of my favourite quests were from the Imperial Cult, the ones where you had to hunt down artefacts while being given only a rough description of where they could be. This is pretty much the only game I know that works with exploration like this. There's nothing else that does such a thing.

TBH it isn't just that, but that's the lovely after taste you enjoy later on. The main thing is how bloody different the setting is being a burnt out volcano land with only giant mushrooms as some sort of odd forestry.

First hearing about Morrowind from friends I got that you start out as a blank slate dumped off in the middle on an island to explore at your own pace and can eventually become a vampire or werewolf. Being fantasy I immediately cooked up thoughts of running around as some pseudo-Viking on a very North European looking island full of coniferous trees and small wooden Medieval villages. Pretty much Soltheim only with less snow and more trees (I was expecting what we got in TES4).

I then DL the think, load it up and get an freaky looking dark-skinned Greys face shoved at mine asking if I'm ok with only the Nords as the race to select appropriate for what the setting was in my mind. The rest being well explained, all that stood out being that the Lizardman race looked crappy to me, which is rare since i have a fondness for them, and given the Dunmer setting, I decided to go with that only to be dropped off in a small Medieval wooden village... but it was different. The mushrooms, the netch outside the village your quickly discover is a living bus, the non-European Dunmer inhabitants (and later the Indo-Chinese aesthetics), it wasn't what I was expecting, but it wasn't a turn off.

It was strangely appealing, if desolate (and that I could barely walk anywhere without tiring before getting an Assassin in my face 3rd time I rested) and was an odd mix of familiar fantasy-ness and something totally foreign. After that you discover the lore and then that is that nice after taste once you've gotten your first few bites down when you realize there's actually a weighted history to world and it isn't just some one off game. I think that's where Morrowind works when it wouldn't have as a first in a series - the previous games, years of developed lore, however generic and bland, still telegraph that this is a world that's taken years of people's time to flesh out and you appreciate it more than the sense you get in other settings, Kingdoms of Amalur stands out the most to me here from a feeling of being a thin, manufactured fantasy setting pushed with the assumption people would expect it to be taken as an old friend they'd never met.

Stepping off that dock at the beginning of the game, somehow you feel something that evokes Tolkien's world, making your first steps into a world that has layers of history overlaid.

That's where Bethesda deserves credit for Morrowind, if only for keeping the series alive until that point and providing a body for Kirkbride to drape his odd philosophical skin over. They compliment one another, and like most things I appreciate, it seems to be largely accidental, unplanned and intuited (which is why Sawyer's mathematical game design outlook drives me nuts).

The biggest evidence of that being Oblivion: "TES is languishing being a generic fantasy setting RPG. Let's throw the dice and play with some odd, slightly Oriental region in our world that is also very unOriental topography and climate and give this druggie a chance to put his ramblings into the lore! Hey!? It worked and our company is save! Ok... let's not try and repeat the same formula, let's go back to generic fantasy setting for the next two, possibly three, instalments and gut a lot of the features, however broken, that made the previous game so iconic and enjoyable for players, kk?"

The saddest thing is is that Morrowind wasn't a turn off (only those fucking Cliff Racers!), there was no need to go back to a more familiar, sickening familiar, fantasy setting. It was for this reason that I was hoping TES4 to go Akavir, you know, that strange, just as alien as Morrowind continent where I could keep seeing a different take on old fantasy.

And that's what Morrowind comes down to. It's still generic fantasy from top down, but it's a new refreshing take on it. And in a world where there's nothing new under the sun, maybe the best we can expect from most, especially the likes of Bethesda, is to put new spins on old things, what Star Wars did in their own way with fantasy.

No, I guess all of that nonsense is not necessary, but thinking about the level of detailed insanity that Morrowind hides always makes me smile.

The novelty from that is that studying the lore is a exercising in exploration itself, it's not simply running around from ruin to ruin.
 
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stray

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The only lore that matters is that the gods are crazy and your character would do well to follow suit.
 

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