Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Dominions 4 announced

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
The ai is abysmal and its faults have nothing to do with the game being complex.
And the devs not giving a fuck about the ai just translates into them not giving a fuck about my 60 bucks or however high they want to price it this time.

It has a ldecently sized MP community for an indie game but the majority of people play single player (or not at all once they noticed how pointless it is) . Its fucked up that they dont give a shit about it.
And how do you know they don't give a fuck about it?

Because I've owned the game since it was released and the AI is still as braindead as back then?
The game in question is yet to be released.

When you say, "well say goodbye to the hope of a decent ai", that implies there was some hope of a decent ai at some point and it vanished due to something. Instead of it being hopeless to begin with.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
The ai is abysmal and its faults have nothing to do with the game being complex.
And the devs not giving a fuck about the ai just translates into them not giving a fuck about my 60 bucks or however high they want to price it this time.

It has a ldecently sized MP community for an indie game but the majority of people play single player (or not at all once they noticed how pointless it is) . Its fucked up that they dont give a shit about it.
And how do you know they don't give a fuck about it?

Because I've owned the game since it was released and the AI is still as braindead as back then?
The game in question is yet to be released.


The game in question has been dom3 which is completely relevant seeing that its the third in the series and made no effort to improve in the AI department, leading me to rightfully believe that this game too will have horrible and completely pointless AI
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
...
not to mention that my original post was in reply to them using the same engine as dom3. (while adding more shit)
 

Haba

Harbinger of Decline
Patron
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
1,871,786
Location
Land of Rape & Honey ❤️
Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
The game in question has been dom3 which is completely relevant seeing that its the third in the series and made no effort to improve in the AI department, leading me to rightfully believe that this game too will have horrible and completely pointless AI

Funnily enough, a large majority of the players still has problems winning the AI, no matter how poor it is.

But frankly, only a large financial success in Dom 3 sales would change things. Or Kickstarter or something. But I don't think that is really what the Illwinter guys want to do. This is a hobby for them, not an alternative day job.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
The ai is abysmal and its faults have nothing to do with the game being complex.
And the devs not giving a fuck about the ai just translates into them not giving a fuck about my 60 bucks or however high they want to price it this time.

It has a ldecently sized MP community for an indie game but the majority of people play single player (or not at all once they noticed how pointless it is) . Its fucked up that they dont give a shit about it.
And how do you know they don't give a fuck about it?

Because I've owned the game since it was released and the AI is still as braindead as back then?
The game in question is yet to be released.


The game in question has been dom3 which is completely relevant seeing that its the third in the series and made no effort to improve in the AI department, leading me to rightfully believe that this game too will have horrible and completely pointless AI
I don't see how keeping the old engine as base, and adding more shit, tells anything about their stance on SP AI. While patching Dom3 they did bugfixing and added more content, of course they'll do much more than that with the new release so I don't see how AI and improving SP in general couldn't be on the to do list too.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
The ai is abysmal and its faults have nothing to do with the game being complex.
And the devs not giving a fuck about the ai just translates into them not giving a fuck about my 60 bucks or however high they want to price it this time.

It has a ldecently sized MP community for an indie game but the majority of people play single player (or not at all once they noticed how pointless it is) . Its fucked up that they dont give a shit about it.
And how do you know they don't give a fuck about it?

Because I've owned the game since it was released and the AI is still as braindead as back then?
The game in question is yet to be released.


The game in question has been dom3 which is completely relevant seeing that its the third in the series and made no effort to improve in the AI department, leading me to rightfully believe that this game too will have horrible and completely pointless AI
I don't see how keeping the old engine as base, and adding more shit, tells anything about their stance on SP AI. While patching Dom3 they did bugfixing and added more content, of course they'll do much more than that with the new release so I don't see how AI and improving SP in general couldn't be on the to do list too.


Of course it's theoretically possible. Why in gods name are treating what i said as infallible gospel? I'm just being edgy.

Having said that: When I heard that their new game is based on the old engine, my hopes for an improved AI went pretty much out the door. Using the old engine 'most likely' means that the AI will more or less the same. My reasoning lies simply in 2 points:

a) Incorporating a new AI into an existing engine is arguably harder than starting from scratch and there is a reason to use the old engine.. it's so you don't have to rewrite code.
b) (More importantly) If they havent been able (or willing) to update the AI in any noticeable way in 6 years, using the same engine that they are planning to use for their next game, then why in gods name should i think they are going to do so now?

I'm the first person that will suck his dick if they add a decent AI. I LOVE dominions 3. The reason it pisses me off is because i have this 60 dollar amazing game that i see no point in playing.

But I'm not one of the faggots on this site that start acting like a game is good before its actually out (see xenonauts for past 4 years). You can claim im the opposite evil, but in this case I actually have no reason to think otherwise given illwinters bs to date.

I'll still pray that they do actually make the single player experience enjoyable, in which case ill buy their shitty game for over 60 bucks if need be
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
The entire series was designed with MP in mind, the amount of options/tactics available to a player for each of the 40 something nations is pretty big, making an AI that can use those tactics is probably tricky for a little studio.

All they need is read their own forums, then hardcode every nation as "create this pretender, prioritize that research and those units". All the research is already done.

Except that it would make SP as predictable as MP, since most nations are one trick ponies. SP AI might be near unexistant, but at least it entertains me by killing a large variety of crap against my one trick ponies, instead of spamming tarts for eternity.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
Of course it's theoretically possible. Why in gods name are treating what i said as infallible gospel? I'm just being edgy.
"I'm just being edgy", what a lameass copout. I'm not treating your opinion as infallible gospel, I'm just treating it like it's your actual opinion.

The entire series was designed with MP in mind, the amount of options/tactics available to a player for each of the 40 something nations is pretty big, making an AI that can use those tactics is probably tricky for a little studio.

All they need is read their own forums, then hardcode every nation as "create this pretender, prioritize that research and those units". All the research is already done.

Except that it would make SP as predictable as MP, since most nations are one trick ponies. SP AI might be near unexistant, but at least it entertains me by killing a large variety of crap against my one trick ponies, instead of spamming tarts for eternity.
MP is predictable? Most nations are not one trick ponies, and especially the ones that are (say EA Abysia as an extreme example) need to diversify eventually (and rather sooner than later) to have a chance against a good opponent who reaches a counter to your one trick. By summoning mages and troops with your pretender for example, before tarts too since next to no nations can actually reach Tarts (+GoH/Chalice) natively anyway.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
Also see those guys in the screenshot?

Kristoffer.Osterman said:
I didn't realize it was possible to deduce their origins or flavor from that single screen :)

Ur is a nation of wild men (Enkidus) and their first city. They are influenced by early Sumer, the Gilgamesh epos, Athrahasis and other mesopotamian stuff.
The enkidus also appear as slaves in the Hinnom rooster. They are ogre-sized rather than giant-sized, but larger and stronger than humans. They are a conversion from Enkidus of the aforementioned Illwinter project.

Ie. 'thals
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
MP is predictable? Most nations are not one trick ponies, and especially the ones that are (say EA Abysia as an extreme example) need to diversify eventually (and rather sooner than later) to have a chance against a good opponent who reaches a counter to your one trick.

They are predictable strategically. Like, if there is Nifelheim on the map, you can bet your arm and leg a "challenging" player will have a E9Nx pretender and will spam niefel giants like there is no tomorrow. The burritos guarantee jaguar warrior spam and fire bless, etc. Access to magic and items is also all but predefined by nation's mages and by pretender (who is originally all but predefined by nation's most cost-effective unit). Sure, they eventually diversify... to summon tarts, wish for chayots and forge the same 2-3 combinations of items. Yawn.

By summoning mages and troops with your pretender for example, before tarts too since next to no nations can actually reach Tarts (+GoH/Chalice) natively anyway.

Curiously, half the threads on patches/balance/requests on Shrapnel boards sum up to "bawww, do something so that people would occasionally field something other than tarts by the lategame". So far, nothing worked, even the ridiculous "shattered mind" (retrofitted specifically to nerf tarts) only meant you need 25% more backup tarts.

Sure, on tactical level, you can be dramatically surprised by anyone, anytime, but strategically you always know how every "good player" is planning to develop, because any other way for a given nation would be suboptimal. And when a game's main selling point (for me anyway) is having 2000 units, 800 spells and 600 artifacts, I'll take a dumb AI throwing everything and the kitchen sink at me over a smart AI spamming the 10 most cost-effective thingies ad nauseum, any time of the day. In my own little gaming world there is only enough space for one minmaxer :smug: And since it is absolutely unavoidable that 99.9% of the game's content is doomed to be suboptimal and cost-ineffective, I want someone to employ that content when I don't.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
MP is predictable? Most nations are not one trick ponies, and especially the ones that are (say EA Abysia as an extreme example) need to diversify eventually (and rather sooner than later) to have a chance against a good opponent who reaches a counter to your one trick.

They are predictable strategically. Like, if there is Nifelheim on the map, you can bet your arm and leg a "challenging" player will have a E9Nx pretender and will spam niefel giants like there is no tomorrow. The burritos guarantee jaguar warrior spam and fire bless, etc. Access to magic and items is also all but predefined by nation's mages and by pretender (who is originally all but predefined by nation's most cost-effective unit). Sure, they eventually diversify... to summon tarts, wish for chayots and forge the same 2-3 combinations of items. Yawn.

By summoning mages and troops with your pretender for example, before tarts too since next to no nations can actually reach Tarts (+GoH/Chalice) natively anyway.

Curiously, half the threads on patches/balance/requests on Shrapnel boards sum up to "bawww, do something so that people would occasionally field something other than tarts by the lategame". So far, nothing worked, even the ridiculous "shattered mind" (retrofitted specifically to nerf tarts) only meant you need 25% more backup tarts.

Sure, on tactical level, you can be dramatically surprised by anyone, anytime, but strategically you always know how every "good player" is planning to develop, because any other way for a given nation would be suboptimal. And when a game's main selling point (for me anyway) is having 2000 units, 800 spells and 600 artifacts, I'll take a dumb AI throwing everything and the kitchen sink at me over a smart AI spamming the 10 most cost-effective thingies ad nauseum, any time of the day. In my own little gaming world there is only enough space for one minmaxer :smug: And since it is absolutely unavoidable that 99.9% of the game's content is doomed to be suboptimal and cost-ineffective, I want someone to employ that content when I don't.

I take it you've never actually played the game in MP?
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
I take it you've never actually played the game in MP?

I've read all the Llamaserver Olympics nation guides, does that count? :lol:

Sure, a particularly inventive player may employ monkey PD to great effect (particularly against a weaker opponent), but we're speaking of AI here, which means the height of ambition is "take picks by the book as befits a given nation". Which means E9Nx niefel giants, F9Wx jaguar warriors et al.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
Sure, for AIs a simple bless rushes or scale builds should be sufficient if that's the scope we're talking about.

Just that the analysis of what's good and cost effective is really off, if the opposition is at all decent (for example those blessed Niefels aren't really that great). A good player doesn't always go for a set strategy but plans to have many different options available. If you know in advance how someone is planning to develop, chances are you can counter it. At least if you took a diverse enough nation/pretender combo. Tartarians are about diversity too btw, since they potentially access every magic path in the game so you're not limiting yourself to one type of offense. If it was just about getting a good cheap SC chassis and giving them a mainstay combo of items, many nations have those available right off the bat.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Of course it's theoretically possible. Why in gods name are treating what i said as infallible gospel? I'm just being edgy.
"I'm just being edgy", what a lameass copout. I'm not treating your opinion as infallible gospel, I'm just treating it like it's your actual opinion.

How exactly is it a 'copout' when I am sticking to exactly what I have been saying since the beginning, and offer a full explanation in the next paragraph you fucking idiot. Stop trying to declare superiority when you don't even address a single thing I say, other than clinging to the retarded notion that my original statement is something I'm 100% sure of which was never said. THATS a copout.

You read that and just ignore the rest of my post because it was easier to write 'lameass copout' than to actually see what my opinion was, and respond to it, because it actually brought up valid points that you didnt want to hear and didn't have the brain power to either refute or the willingness to just accept.

Idiot
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,520
Location
casting coach
Of course it's theoretically possible. Why in gods name are treating what i said as infallible gospel? I'm just being edgy.
"I'm just being edgy", what a lameass copout. I'm not treating your opinion as infallible gospel, I'm just treating it like it's your actual opinion.

How exactly is it a 'copout' when I am sticking to exactly what I have been saying since the beginning you fucking idiot. Stop trying to declare superiority when you don't even address a single thing I say, other than clinging to the retarded notion that my original statement is something I'm 100% sure of which was never said. THATS a copout.

You read that and just ignore the rest of my post because it was easier to write 'lameass copout' than to actually see what my opinion was, and respond to it, because it actually brought up valid points that you didnt want to hear and didn't have the brain power to either refute or the willingness to just accept.

Idiot
There just isn't so much to respond to in that post. We don't know how their engine is built, but I'd think that changing the AI code is not behind too much spagetti to get to it. And whether they care about AI at all, judging by Dom3 patch history you could just as well say they don't care about improving the UI which was the clear #1 request from the playerbase to improve the game by, throughout the years. As I already said it's not just another patch for Dom3 so not much sense extrapolating too much from those. You don't really have anything solid to back your argument with but your own preconception of how people you've never talked to think. You brought nothing new to the table with your points.


And I never implied that you're completely set in your stance more than you did, all I ever did was argue that you don't know shit and assume too much. When you say you "rightfully believe" instead of just "believe", "theoretically possible" instead of just "possible"... It does imply that the alternate possibility might just as well not exist. If you don't actually think it's that clear cut, maybe you shouldn't use such loaded rhetoric just to be edgy. If you say "goodbye to hope", usually that would exactly mean that there is no hope left.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
MP is predictable? Most nations are not one trick ponies, and especially the ones that are (say EA Abysia as an extreme example) need to diversify eventually (and rather sooner than later) to have a chance against a good opponent who reaches a counter to your one trick.

They are predictable strategically. Like, if there is Nifelheim on the map, you can bet your arm and leg a "challenging" player will have a E9Nx pretender and will spam niefel giants like there is no tomorrow. The burritos guarantee jaguar warrior spam and fire bless, etc. Access to magic and items is also all but predefined by nation's mages and by pretender (who is originally all but predefined by nation's most cost-effective unit). Sure, they eventually diversify... to summon tarts, wish for chayots and forge the same 2-3 combinations of items. Yawn.

By summoning mages and troops with your pretender for example, before tarts too since next to no nations can actually reach Tarts (+GoH/Chalice) natively anyway.

Curiously, half the threads on patches/balance/requests on Shrapnel boards sum up to "bawww, do something so that people would occasionally field something other than tarts by the lategame". So far, nothing worked, even the ridiculous "shattered mind" (retrofitted specifically to nerf tarts) only meant you need 25% more backup tarts.

Sure, on tactical level, you can be dramatically surprised by anyone, anytime, but strategically you always know how every "good player" is planning to develop, because any other way for a given nation would be suboptimal. And when a game's main selling point (for me anyway) is having 2000 units, 800 spells and 600 artifacts, I'll take a dumb AI throwing everything and the kitchen sink at me over a smart AI spamming the 10 most cost-effective thingies ad nauseum, any time of the day. In my own little gaming world there is only enough space for one minmaxer :smug: And since it is absolutely unavoidable that 99.9% of the game's content is doomed to be suboptimal and cost-ineffective, I want someone to employ that content when I don't.
Well first of all the CBM mod diversified the middle/late game a lot in MP. Not to mention that you can just you know play MP with house rules... not hard to set up/find a game with something like -no tarts
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,267
The main obstacle to improving the AI is the non-existent diplomacy system atm. The level of chaos in being at war with 5+ nations at once is ridiculous for both AI and players, which is why any MP game has out of game diplomacy.
 

puppyonastik

Augur
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
175
Location
Northern Illinois
The devs added a new features list to their dom4 page.


Dominions 4 improvements

Here's a short list with the most important changes compared to Dominions 3.
  • Teamplay, one pretender and one or more disciples per team.
  • Thrones of Ascension. Claim thrones to gain extra powers and to win the game eventually.
  • Many sprites have been redrawn and the 3d terrain is also improved.
  • Many user interface improvements.
  • Formations like line formation or skirmish formation.
  • Improved random map generation with wraparound maps, caves, rivers and mountain passes.
  • Rivers that can only be passed when frozen, mountain passes that can only be passed by special units and when it's warm.
  • Pierce, slash and blunt weapons have slightly different quirks. E.g. don't shoot arrows at skeletons.
  • Darkness and dark vision plays a more important role. Notably in deep seas, caves and sometimes during assassinations.
  • Range restrictions on magic rituals and items and spells that can be used to boost ritual ranges.
  • Improved network support, turns can be resumed from any computer and turns can be marked as only half finished.
  • Global random events
  • Can build castle improvements like extra towers or extra supply storage
  • Province Defence dependent on the local population and some nations have easier or harder to organize it.
  • Improvements to AI and to modding.
  • Many new monsters, spells, magic items, sites, random events and some nations too.

http://illwinter.com/dom4/index.html
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,956
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sounds great!

I still don't like that you can't influence battles directly, but having better options beforehand makes things more bearable.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
Hm, if screenshots is anything to judge by, it's just another UI reskin hardly any different from Dom3 than Dom3 was from Dom2.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom