Dragon Age: Origins combat is better than Baldur's Gate 2

[DalekFlay]

Most of your cooldown comments are "MMOs since WoW have sucked and I am still hurt by it!" Which... fine, but it really has nothing to do with DA:O. Very few of the cooldown crusader comments apply to DA:O really, which has very tactical battles focused a lot on AoE placement and character movement. You're not just sitting there with a mage rotating clicks on cooldowns like you would in a shitty MMO.

 

[Absinthe]

DalekFlay No, the cooldowns in DAO are genuinely shit design. You see, under normal circumstances when you make everything so fucking bland that it all does the same shit in the same uninteractive ways, people will spam the best option, but through the lens of mentally handicapped designers cooldowns are a neat way to make sure each ability has its place even if they all basically serve the exact same fucking function with slightly different window dressing. Warrior is a major victim of this kind of bullshit design where he has too many abilities that are just "hit shit" with minute variations on hit effects. Cooldowns in DAO are done as a way to paper over the fact that you have too many abilities doing fundamentally the same shit.

And as a matter of fact you do actually sit there with a mage rotating clicks on cooldown in DAO. There is rarely a good reason to sit on an ability that is off cooldown, after all, since DAO Mage abilities trend more in the direction of "generally overpowered" than "situationally important." And DAO Warrior abilities trend in the direction of "too shit to use" and "mediocre damage source you should spam" with situational being reserved for your few stunning abilities. And when you spam abilities on cooldown you spam them in the same order too. And certain combos (like two mages forcefielding the tank) are nothing but extended cooldown rotation spam routines.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

DalekFlay No, the cooldowns in DAO are genuinely shit design. You see, under normal circumstances when you make everything so fucking bland that it all does the same shit in the same uninteractive ways, people will spam the best option, but through the lens of mentally handicapped designers cooldowns are a neat way to make sure each ability has its place even if they all basically serve the exact same fucking function with slightly different window dressing

the same argument can be made for spell slots though

 

[BarbequeMasta]

OK i thought this was some kind of a joke at first, but how is this thread still going?

 

[Nano]

Imagine complaining about the spell selection in DAO in comparison to BG. The majority of BG's spells suck balls. Good luck if you're playing a Sorcerer without a spell guide.

 

[Cryomancer]

. Good luck if you're playing a Sorcerer without a spell guide.

I did it. Is not that hard. Just read what the spell do.

Picking Wizard lv 5 spells on BG1 ( https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard_spells_(Baldur's_Gate) )

• Hold monster - Amazing to hold d4 mobs
• Domination - Amazing to turn dumb large enemies into allies.
• Feeblemind - End the life of a enemy caster
• Chaos - It can turn the ties of a outnumbered battle
• Animate dead - Do i need to explain why it is the best t5 spell?
• Cloudkill - Amazing spell.
• Cone of Cold - DPS
  
• Monster Summoning III - 16 hit dice worth os monsters helping
  
• Shadow Door - Escape dangeous situations and avoid peril.

If i an a sorerer and need to pick one, my priority would be Domination. The most situational is shadow door. Hell, i can't find a way to win the last encounter on Dark Sun Shattered lands without domination. On Baldur's Gate, there are no "better spell", there are "better spell to use in situation A". For example, on Dark Sun, i would't pick Feeblemind since casters are very rare enemies. In a campaign happening on Thay empire, where mages are relative common, i would pick feeblemind.

 

[hell bovine]

Imagine complaining about the spell selection in DAO in comparison to BG. The majority of BG's spells suck balls. Good luck if you're playing a Sorcerer without a spell guide.

I did, played a sorceress when ToB came out. Experimenting with spells was what made it fun. Oh the horror of modern gamers, playing without a guide.

 

[Nano]

Good job dodging the main point of my post.

 

[DalekFlay]

And as a matter of fact you do actually sit there with a mage rotating clicks on cooldown in DAO. There is rarely a good reason to sit on an ability that is off cooldown, after all, since DAO Mage abilities trend more in the direction of "generally overpowered" than "situationally important." And DAO Warrior abilities trend in the direction of "too shit to use" and "mediocre damage source you should spam" with situational being reserved for your few stunning abilities. And when you spam abilities on cooldown you spam them in the same order too. And certain combos (like two mages forcefielding the tank) are nothing but extended cooldown rotation spam routines.

In both setups you have a bunch of similar abilities. In both setups you choose what to use based on what's available. The main difference is that you'll have to rely on something other cone of cold while it recharges versus having to rely on something other than cone of cold because you're out of them for this battle. That decision is different, not saying it isn't, but I don't think either has objectively less value or strategy involved. It just depends on how well they're executed on.

I never played WoW but I played ToR and you basically sat there waiting to hit the ability buttons as they became available. That's shitty cooldown design. I didn't feel this way playing DA:O though, I would have to maneuver into the proper spot to use cone of cold, then get out of dodge, switch to a long range attack while cone of cold recharged, then move back in, etc. You also had a mana pool to consider. There was much more to it than a shit MMO style cooldown system.

I'm playing Pathfinder Kingmaker now and Octavia has 5 acid shot things. I basically save them for harder enemies, and when there's a hard enemy I press them and she uses them and then when she's out I rest. Same thing with hold person, emergency heals, etc. It's not really a different level of strategy at all, just a different equation to work out tactically.

 

[jackofshadows]

Warrior is a major victim of this kind of bullshit design where he has too many abilities that are just "hit shit" with minute variations on hit effects. Cooldowns in DAO are done as a way to paper over the fact that you have too many abilities doing fundamentally the same shit.

And DAO Warrior abilities trend in the direction of "too shit to use" and "mediocre damage source you should spam" with situational being reserved for your few stunning abilities.

Great, compare that now to BG2's warrior gameplay.

Seriously though, it was a true pleasure to read your critique posts ITT, however I completely disagree. While DA:O really suffer from lack of mobs variety if we put that aside somehow, I can't see how that particular cooldown system with pools of recources and combos on top of that is unreservedly inferior to the BG2's one.

Where you have a cooldown on some powerful spell in DA:O, in BG2 you have highest circle with the only one spell which you may use once per battle. Where you think you can cast 3 fireballs in a row your mage can get interrupted due to casting time every time. Cooldowns for minor spells and abilities are insignificant. And you have sustained abilities for tactical variety as a huge bonus.

As for OP DA:O spells examples... you've lost me there, it can be said about BG2 w/o any hesitation. Is that a bad design? I'd say it where the fun is.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I hope the codex lasts for at least 10 more years so that I can see revisionist threads about games like Outer Worlds and Tyranny made by people for whom they are classic crpgs. Worth sticking around just for that imo.

 

[Sharpedge]

Dragon Age was guilty of having too little monster variety. Baldur's Gate, in particular Baldur's Gate 1, was guilty of filling zones with useless crap enemies that add nothing to the game and just waste time. I advise people who think otherwise to replay Baldur's Gate 1 and walk around some of the zones, like I did recently. An easy example is going to visit Firewine Bridge. There should be a pack of skeletons+kobalds+dogs (?) there all located quite close together. Whilst Dragon Age also had trash enemies, it was nowhere near on the scale of Baldur's Gate 1. Maybe if the monster variety was used for interesting set piece fights instead of walls of 100 trash enemies, the variety would matter a bit more.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I hope the codex lasts for at least 10 more years so that I can see revisionist threads about games like Outer Worlds and Tyranny made by people for whom they are classic crpgs. Worth sticking around just for that imo.

If you treat trash like BG2 as an old-school classic, you have no right to complain about Obsidian IE inspired cash grabs.

DA:O has worse itemization, fewer spells, less variety in monsters, fewer quests, yet it is better than BG2. Why? Because it was designed with RTwP in mind. The melee feels engaging and the spell combos are more pleasurable to play with. BG2 in comparison is just a mess.

I think people have difficulty dealing with something as simple as this because BG2 has more stuff, and more stuff is associated with more complexity, which should be interpreted as proof that is inherently superior. It would be if all that complexity had a meaningful impact on the gameplay. As things stand, it doesn’t. The gamers who get any enjoyment out of this either are larping, or using the game as an excuse to spout their useless D&D erudition. Hence, the praise that BG2 receives is hypocritical. Players love the game because they love their previous experiences with D&D and their larping stories involving the game. It is not real in gameplay terms. It is made up. It is fiction inside a fiction. It is self-delusion built on a fiction motivated by cretin reasons.

If you are not satisfied with this argument, look at it this way: which game has more complexity, PoE or IWD? The first, hands down. Now, which game is better? The second. It doesn’t matter how much stuff you throw at a cRPG. You can have the most complicated list of options ever conceived by mankind. If the gameplay is not conceived with these options in mind, you have a confusing game. I have the impression that the gameplay of DA:O is better than BG2 because the developers were doing their own thing instead of copying D&D. Egotistical fans of BG2 got disappointed because they can’t brag about their useless D&D knowledge anymore.

 

[JDR13]

OK i thought this was some kind of a joke at first, but how is this thread still going?

I was wondering the same thing myself. I actually thought the OP was trolling to be honest, but now I realize he's just mentally retarded. Although it could be both.

 

[Cryomancer]

BG2 is too complex and fast for me

Fixed for you.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Fixed for you.

It is complex due to the sheer number of things, but it is not sophisticated. I played D&D too, and never had any problems with the game. So? Your answer basically reinforces my point. People think the game is special because it has tons of stuff in it. That's as dumb as saying that T:ToN is more complex than FO because it has more text. The size doesn't matter, but the way the content is tied to the design does.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

If you treat trash like BG2 as an old-school classic, you have no right to complain about Obsidian IE inspired cash grabs.

Nice strawman. Also, this sentence makes literally zero sense. You cannot just conjure up completely meaningless shit and then pretend it's a thing. That's not how life works.

DA:O has worse itemization, fewer spells, less variety in monsters, fewer quests, yet it is better than BG2. Why? Because it was designed with RTwP in mind.

The gamers who get any enjoyment out of this either are larping, or using the game as an excuse to spout their useless D&D erudition. Hence, the praise that BG2 receives is hypocritical. Players love the game because they love their previous experiences with D&D and their larping stories involving the game. It is not real in gameplay terms. It is made up. It is fiction inside a fiction. It is self-delusion built on a fiction motivated by cretin reasons.

Or people just enjoy crpgs with good quest design, exciting loot, great presentation etc. I dunno lol.

If you are not satisfied with this argument, look at it this way: which game has more complexity, PoE or IWD? The first, hands down. Now, which game is better? The second.

IWD>POE, a true statement, has next to nothing to do with "complexity". Coincidentally, it's exactly the same with BG2>DAO.

 

[Nano]

Or people just enjoy crpgs with good quest design

Citation needed. The quest design in BG2 is mediocre. It follows the philosophy of "more is better", but there's barely any depth to anything. C&C is nearly nonexistent in the BG games.

In fact, DAO's quest design is better. It has more C&C too, but BG doesn't put up much competition in that regard.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Or people just enjoy crpgs with good quest design

Citation needed. The quest design in BG2 is mediocre. It follows the philosophy of "more is better", but there's barely any depth to anything. C&C is nearly nonexistent in the BG games.

In fact, DAO's quest design is better. It has more C&C too, but BG doesn't put up much competition in that regard.

There is no comparison. The writing is better, the quests are much, much better.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Vault Dweller's review of DA:O presents a fair assessment of the game.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

All that BG2 hate fills my heart with an urge to reply it.

 

[luj1]

DAO is hot garbage. Don't put it in the same sentence as BG.

 

[Carrion]

DA:O has worse itemization, fewer spells, less variety in monsters, fewer quests, yet it is better than BG2. Why? Because it was designed with RTwP in mind. The melee feels engaging and the spell combos are more pleasurable to play with. BG2 in comparison is just a mess.

This is all too vague to even make this into a real argument. You need to provide some actual examples. Ditto for the quest design, as the only side quests I remember from DA:O are the ones where you look for the five hidden sword pieces and the particularly exciting one where you try to hunt down the seven missing journal pages.

 

[Lagole Gon]

What the fuck is going on here.
Prosperzone every person defending DA:O's single-player-MMO combat. Quarantine!

 

[NJClaw]

We all know what the real problem is.

DA:O lets you fuck human females and to a true BG fan this is utterly unacceptable.