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Dragon Age: Origins combat is better than Baldur's Gate 2

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Vatnik Wumao
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Like I said, the writing is mediocre at best and it doesn't go anywhere. DA2 has better writing.
:prosper:

Though to answer on a serious note, Origins simply makes use of traditional fantasy archetypes (or 'tropes' if you prefer). It being simple and traditionalist doesn't make it bad. The characters make sense within the context of the setting and they do have hidden depth - Loghain being a tragic figure, a war traumatized veteran and a true Fereldan patriot who abandons Maric's son not out of malice or of a difference in goals, but out of pragmatism (and probably regretfully, given his respect for Cailan not as an idealist man, but as his king and as the son of Maric). Likewise with Alistair being an idealist akin to Cailan who is nonetheless resigned to his fate due to his respect and feelings of indebtedness towards his uncle, with Duncan being the one to pull him out of that life and to challenge his fatalistic outlook (followed by a potential arc of him becoming true to his nature rather than just exchanging the Templar cloister for the Grey Wardens due to his feelings of indebtedness to Duncan which now co-exist alongside those towards his uncle). And I could go on as well, with examples ranging from Oghren and Sten to Morrigan and Leliana.

Besides Varric and the Arishok (plus maybe Merrill and Sebastian), DA2 really doesn't have much going for it. A plot is only as good as the characters around which it is built.
 

Lacrymas

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That's hyperinterpretation. Loghain could've been interesting, but all his decisions have bad consequences and are framed as kooky and unreasonable. Alistair isn't in any way, shape or form affected by his experiences with the Templars, a better Templar is Gregoir (with a funky spelling I can't remember). Alistair is, despite his militaristic training and church upbringing, a good-natured and kind knight who rejects all of that cultural and personal baggage and goes SJW on us by not showing at least suspicion towards our mage MC. He's also hot but doesn't know it and comes off child-like, he's a gender swapped version of a 19th century depiction of the ideal woman. Outside of that, the companions lack agency and all of their decisions depend on yours, which makes them feel artificial and just there.

DA2 has actual themes which go somewhere, political tensions (which were caused by Isabella) with the Qunari which lead to a war within the city, the over-vigilance of Meredith leading to a witch hunt, despite the criticism I like how Anders blew up the church, it showed that not everything revolves around us and the companions have their own view of the world, etc. DA:O has the usual merry band of adventurers going against the invading orcs and the real victory was the friends we made along the way.
 
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Vatnik Wumao
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That's hyperinterpretation. Loghain could've been interesting, but all his decisions have bad consequences and are framed as kooky and unreasonable.
I think that the characterization of Loghain can go either way, it's just a matter of different interpretations. You see what you want to see in him.
Alistair isn't in any way, shape or formed by his experienced with the Templars, a better Templar is Gregoir (with a funky spelling I can't remember). Alistair is, despite his militaristic training and church upbringing, a good-natured and kind knight who rejects all of that cultural and personal baggage and goes SJW on us by not showing at least suspicion towards our mage MC. He's also hot but doesn't know it and comes off child-like, he's a gender swapped version of a 19th century depiction of the ideal woman.
He is not shaped by it, but resigned to it. It is only by being set free from both the Templars and the Grey Wardens in their form as a total institution before the Battle of Ostagar that he is free to manifest his natural tendencies and develop as a character. And there's plenty of depth there with his self-demeaning, jokester attitude which hide his lingering doubts about fully embracing his idealism. The fact that you interpret the latter as him being 'hot but doesn't know it and comes off child-like' says more about you than about the design of the character as far as I'm concerned.
Outside of that, the companions lack agency and all of their decisions depend on yours, which makes them feel artificial and just there.
Or rather their personal arcs are interwoven with the greater plot, particularly in terms of the locations you get to visit such as with Shale getting to meet Caridin in the Deep Roads, Sten finding his sword at Redcliffe, Oghren getting the chance to stop by to his former love in that town near Lake Calenhad and so on. Might be a bit contrived? Sure, but it doesn't seem to ruin most players' suspension of disbelief. As for the fact that 'their decisions depend on yours' in terms of the impact of dialogue in the resolution of their arcs, that's simply a consequence of the sort of story which Origins is portraying. With the companions having joined together with the MC on his (literal) journey, it is only normal that - if respected - his words and actions will carry more weight for the companions in lack of other social influences. Pretty standard hero story as far as I'm concerned. If you don't like this narrative (sub)genre in CRPGs, that's purely a matter of taste.

DA2 has actual themes which go somewhere, political tensions (which were caused by Isabella) with the Qunari which lead to a war within the city, the over-vigilance of Meredith leading to a witch hunt, despite the criticism I like how Anders blew up the church, it showed that not everything revolves around us and the companions have their own view of the world, etc. DA:O has the usual merry band of adventurers going against the invading orcs and the real victory was the friends we made along the way.
I see where you are coming from, so I can't really argue against it. I just put higher emphasis on characters rather than elaborate themes (though games such as The Witcher 2 contain the best of both worlds).
 

Nano

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Probably not enough agency for Lacrymas, but most of the companions can leave or even outright attack you if you do something they really don't like. Sten can also attack you out of nowhere if he thinks your leadership is questionable.

DA2 has actual themes which go somewhere, political tensions (which were caused by Isabella) with the Qunari which lead to a war within the city, the over-vigilance of Meredith leading to a witch hunt, despite the criticism I like how Anders blew up the church, it showed that not everything revolves around us and the companions have their own view of the world, etc.
I kind of agree with your points here, but DA2's shoddy execution unfortunately leaves a lot to be desired.
 

Silly Germans

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What were the worst things about DA II ? I recall the bullet sponge enemies and the area
recycling. Also the surprise butts sex if you talked to Anders.
 

Lacrymas

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I think that the characterization of Loghain can go either way, it's just a matter of different interpretations. You see what you want to see in him.
That's not true. You might agree with him on his first decision to desert the battlefield due to a perceived threat from Orlais, but after that everything points to him being wrong. He is framed as paranoid and *all* his decisions lead to bad outcomes, especially since the threat of the darkspawn was very real. He isn't given depth because the game robs him of it by depicting him like this. I'll never forget his face when they were discussing the battle plan at Ostagar, he looked like a caricature villain smirking directly at the camera that he's gonna betray us all. If Orlais had actually attacked during this crisis, this narrative would've been ramped up at least 2-3 notches. As for Alistair, what you are describing honestly sounds like a Disney character to me, casting off the shackles of society/upbringing/expectations to be true to himself. This is not a bad thing necessarily, just ...Disney.
 

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What were the worst things about DA II ?

The wave-style encounter design.

DA 1 was already terrible with its copypasted mobs, but DA 2 took it to a whole new level. Holy shit. Whoever designed those encounters clearly was one of those people at Bioware who don't like the gameplay, because it shows utter lack of understanding towards what makes gameplay fun. They just slapped mobs into the maps that would attack in waves, so all the trash encounters took especially long to go through. What an uninteresting waste of time.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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I think that the characterization of Loghain can go either way, it's just a matter of different interpretations. You see what you want to see in him.
That's not true. You might agree with him on his first decision to desert the battlefield due to a perceived threat from Orlais, but after that everything points to him being wrong. He is framed as paranoid and *all* his decisions lead to bad outcomes, especially since the threat of the darkspawn was very real.
He is paranoid, that's the whole point of it. He is a tragic figure precisely because of the fact that while he used to be a Fereldan hero in both thought and deed during his time alongside Maric, his war trauma makes him unable to fulfill the same role during the Blight even though all that he desires is still the protection of Ferelden from all threats, both real and imagined.

As for Alistair, what you are describing honestly sounds like a Disney character to me, casting off the shackles of society/upbringing/expectations to be true to himself. This is not a bad thing necessarily, just ...Disney.
Eh, I can see the similarities, but I have no issues with it as long as its done tastefully. Though I prefer grimdark, I don't mind more idealistic and/or innocent stuff. Old Disney didn't lack complexity in its portrayal of archetypal characters either:
 

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EA honestly did a lot to drag down DAO. There was the overpowered DLC gear and also just a lot of bad cuts and simplifications that occurred in the last year when EA took over Bioware.
Bioware did that all on their own.
No, the Stone Prisoner shit was definitely an EA move. So was the DLC salesmen. Probably pre-order exclusive items as well. Bioware also suddenly changed the marketing and look of the game after EA took over, to make it edgier. There was also a lot of casualization and dumbing down of the original design vision that happened in the last year. While a good part of it is certainly on Bioware, I suspect there was executive meddling to make the game more "accessible" as well.

I don't think this game could've been significantly better even if they didn't cut corners or introduce op DLC gear (which you can disable anyway). The writing and lack of encounter design, mob variety and build diversity are what drag it down. Those things are mediocre at best from the very beginning, so it's not about budget or cut corners.
Encounter design I'd certainly fault Bioware for. But the writing was not so mediocre from the start. Originally it was planned out that Cailan was frankly conducting an affair and planning to divorce his wife Anora (who was yet to bear him a child) in favor of Empress Celene of Orlais, with Arl Eamon (who never approved of Loghain or his daughter as proper nobles, since Loghain came from peasant roots) being the intermediary for Cailan and Celene's affair who encouraged Cailan to set aside Anora for Celene. And marrying Celene would only have given Orlais Fereldan back by marriage after a hard-won rebellion to regain their freedom. Loghain found out about this, and this is what caused him to have to kill Cailan and probably contributed to his motives for poisoning Eamon. This entire angle got cut and it dragged down the story with it, making Loghain into a retarded backstabbing power-hungry and paranoid villain with a terrible sense of timing. Dalish Elves vs Werewolves was originally also intended to be handled in a less hamfisted way, where you don't get autopiloted to the ideal solution (they had to dumb that one down, you see) but instead get two different sides of the story, with heavy grudges and a choice between them, and need to find the ideal solution (lifting the curse) yourself. Dwarf Noble was blatantly intended to have a follow-up route in the Orzammar main quest, but they completely gutted it because it would be unfair to non-DN origins... Oh and originally you would've had to choose between Arl Eamon and the Cult of Andraste for your army, but instead now you get to cure Arl Eamon no matter what. And originally you were going to recruit your party members into the grey wardens and darkspawn corruption (as well as lyrium poisoning) were going to be mechanics. Persuasion and Intimidation used to be separate skills too, in the demo the year before DAO came out (back then Rogues had access to the shield & sword and two-handed weapon talent lines too). There has definitely been a push to make DAO more casual in the last year before release. And we know EA was responsible for DAO's sudden rebranding and DLC practices. I think a lot of the shit that went south was indeed on Bioware, but EA also played a considerable role in dragging down the game to mediocrity.

The least they could've done is expand the specializations to affect how a character plays, i.e. more specializations like the Arcane Warrior, which I find the most successful out of all of them. I feel DA:O is lacking in effort in pretty much everything except map design and world building, and maybe companions (in terms of content and banter) but they suffer from the overall Disney-esque approach to the writing.
Arcane Warrior was pretty shit though. It had zero offensive moves and was nothing but a spellcaster running around in a giant suit of armor. The NPC Arcane Warriors typically have some Warrior talents to go along with them, but not the player characters. Shapeshifter was also handled poorly. You only got 2 or 3 moves in each form and were mostly sitting on your ass not doing shit. They really needed to improve that spec to make it actually feel like a proper shapeshifter. Not a lot of in-world recognition of specializations either, such as if you were a blood mage for instance. There was also a depressing lack of spec-specific gear. Arcane Warriors got 1 sword and Templars got some templar armor (where arbitrarily only some of them actually require the specialization) and that was about it. The Arcane Warrior sword also says it can be used to cast spells like a staff, but it doesn't affect Arcane Warrior spellcasting in the slightest. AW was a bad case of cut corners, and there was no good reason why it didn't have access to basic warrior talents like the weapon trees. NPCs get that, but not player characters.

That reminds me, there's a deleted scene where Wynne turns you in to the templars if you are Blood Mage spec, but they cut that scene out because they didn't want to punish you for playing a Blood Mage or shit. They even allowed you to make Wynne herself into a Blood Mage now.
 
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Nano

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That reminds me, there's a deleted scene where Wynne turns you in to the templars if you are Blood Mage spec, but they cut that scene out because they didn't want to punish you for playing a Blood Mage or shit.
It was cut because it breaks the game if you fail the Persuade check. You need either the Mages or the Templars for Arl Eamon to start the Landsmeet, and you can't progress if you don't have either.

The scene also contains a plot hole, Wynne says something about "Gray Wardens can only have one mage at a time", but in the final game that piece of lore applies only to the Dalish, not the Wardens.
 

NJClaw

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That's hyperinterpretation. Loghain could've been interesting, but all his decisions have bad consequences and are framed as kooky and unreasonable. Alistair isn't in any way, shape or form affected by his experiences with the Templars, a better Templar is Gregoir (with a funky spelling I can't remember). Alistair is, despite his militaristic training and church upbringing, a good-natured and kind knight who rejects all of that cultural and personal baggage and goes SJW on us by not showing at least suspicion towards our mage MC. He's also hot but doesn't know it and comes off child-like, he's a gender swapped version of a 19th century depiction of the ideal woman. Outside of that, the companions lack agency and all of their decisions depend on yours, which makes them feel artificial and just there.

DA2 has actual themes which go somewhere, political tensions (which were caused by Isabella) with the Qunari which lead to a war within the city, the over-vigilance of Meredith leading to a witch hunt, despite the criticism I like how Anders blew up the church, it showed that not everything revolves around us and the companions have their own view of the world, etc. DA:O has the usual merry band of adventurers going against the invading orcs and the real victory was the friends we made along the way.
I don't agree with the companions' lack of agency:
- Alistair accepts under a light-hearted mask everything you do and ask of him, but, when you try to impose on him a life he doesn't see himself fit for (becoming king and marrying Anora or giving a child to Morrigan), he strongly refuses if you didn't build a strong enough relationship with him (if he trusts you to death and see you as a real friend, however, he follows your lead). If you decide to forgive the man who bretrayed his king, he abandons you;
- Morrigan in the end reveals her plan and if you don't trust her enough to do as she asks, she disappears;
- if you use blood magic, Wynne sides against you in the final fight during the Mages vs Templars quest (after that she no longer care and she can even become a blood mage, so yeah, that's weird);
- if he doesn't trust you, Zevran, being a paid assassin, tries to kill you at the first chance he has.

While they follow you, they (usually) have a good reason for doing so. At least, I can't think of a character who's following you only because you are the MC, without any motives of his own.
 

Lacrymas

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Arcane Warrior was pretty shit though. It had zero offensive moves and was nothing but a spellcaster running around in a giant suit of armor.
I'm not talking about mechanical effectiveness (although you could solo the game with an AW) but the way it changed how you play your class. Imagine Bard completely redesigning the Rogue and it playing more like a D&D Bard. This is what I mean. As for the original writing intent, it sounds a bajillion times better and more interesting, but we know what we got at the end.
 

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I'm so confused by Absinthe's disjointed complaints about DAO. One moment he complains about how OP mages are, and now he's complaining about how Arcane Warriors just aren't crazy OP enough or whatever. Sounds like you're just looking for excuses to shit on this game.
 

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No, the Stone Prisoner shit was definitely an EA move.

There was a whole story about how Shale was cut and how she was brought in as free DLC (they initially made her too big to fit through the doors).

So was the DLC salesmen. Probably pre-order exclusive items as well.

Bioware had exclusive items before EA, Baldur's Gate II being the first with its special merchants.

Bioware also suddenly changed the marketing and look of the game after EA took over, to make it edgier. There was also a lot of casualization and dumbing down of the original design vision that happened in the last year. While a good part of it is certainly on Bioware, I suspect there was executive meddling to make the game more "accessible" as well.

All decisions were on Bioware. It's likely some of them were made in intention of selling more copies to recoup EA's big investment, but the decisions were theirs to make. Additionally, chasing a wider audience was always a goal of theirs; the Biodocs once talked about their goal of 10 million.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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All decisions were on Bioware. It's likely some of them were made in intention of selling more copies to recoup EA's big investment, but the decisions were theirs to make. Additionally, chasing a wider audience was always a goal of theirs; the Biodocs once talked about their goal of 10 million.
Shit like this makes me want to avoid knowing about the behind the scenes of game development. Even if I appreciate Origins for what it is, it could've been much, much better had they not placed their bets on the wrong horse.
 

Absinthe

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It was cut because it breaks the game if you fail the Persuade check. You need either the Mages or the Templars for Arl Eamon to start the Landsmeet, and you can't progress if you don't have either.
Actually you just need to complete the quest, which you will have completed either way. Having the army itself is not as necessary (Bioware underdelivered on the utility of those). Similarly it's possible to have golems or no golems. But IIRC Bioware was on the record saying they cut that for fairness reasons. Because it would be too punishing to your choice of specialization if they kept that in, is what they said.

The scene also contains a plot hole, Wynne says something about "Gray Wardens can only have one mage at a time", but in the final game that piece of lore applies only to the Dalish, not the Wardens.
Actually the Dalish have at least two mages, a Keeper and his First, but it's possible there were more as well (Aneirin the healer comes to mind). In DAI they inserted some absurd lore about Dalish ditching any mages over two in order to make them seem more like unsympathetic backwards savages though. There was never any real lore established about how many mages a Grey Warden group has and if that was the problem, they would only need to redo 1 line.

I'm so confused by Absinthe's disjointed complaints about DAO. One moment he complains about how OP mages are, and now he's complaining about how Arcane Warriors just aren't crazy OP enough or whatever. Sounds like you're just looking for excuses to shit on this game.
I'm not really surprised you're so confused. You rated a lot of my posts with autism so it's pretty clear you're not a man that handles details well. Anyway, on AW, I am not complaining AWs aren't OP enough. If anything investing points into Warrior talents instead of Mage spells makes you less overpowered. And casting with a weapon in hand instead of a staff also results in distinctly less powerful spells. The half-assed state of weapons-equipped casting (which is not written anywhere in any official manual, tooltip, or codex entry) just necessitates even further that your Arcane Warrior run around with a goddamn staff and be a full spellcaster in armor. And I'd honestly want them to take out the absurd Shimmering Shield since like this the Arcane Warrior is not a warrior spec in any sensible sense. It's just a tank mage spec. It's a design failure, is what it is.

There was a whole story about how Shale was cut and how she was brought in as free DLC (they initially made her too big to fit through the doors).
Aye, you can see the original model in the Mage tower fade sequence with Shale. I don't think the solution necessitated cutting Shale out of Redcliffe village though. That was very obviously part of EA's Project Ten Dollar, as mentioned before.

Bioware had exclusive items before EA, Baldur's Gate II being the first with its special merchants.
Huh. At any rate the DLC salesmen ridiculousness was most likely EA's brilliant idea.

All decisions were on Bioware. It's likely some of them were made in intention of selling more copies to recoup EA's big investment, but the decisions were theirs to make. Additionally, chasing a wider audience was always a goal of theirs; the Biodocs once talked about their goal of 10 million.
That doesn't surprise me, but the design plans headed in a very different direction until sudden cuts and changes in the last year. I'm inclined to associate a portion of them with EA's direction being at the helm of DAO, even if most of it was hands-off.
 
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Silly Germans

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What were the worst things about DA II ?

The wave-style encounter design.

DA 1 was already terrible with its copypasted mobs, but DA 2 took it to a whole new level. Holy shit. Whoever designed those encounters clearly was one of those people at Bioware who don't like the gameplay, because it shows utter lack of understanding towards what makes gameplay fun. They just slapped mobs into the maps that would attack in waves, so all the trash encounters took especially long to go through. What an uninteresting waste of time.

Was it DA II with those ninja enemies that jumped in from everywhere once you had cleared the first batch ?
 

NJClaw

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Was it DA II with those ninja enemies that jumped in from everywhere once you had cleared the first batch ?

Yes, as well as being complete shit in general.
Companions are cool (to me, that's the most important thing in these games) and the plot can be interesting sometimes, far more than in Inquisition, where it's really hard for me to care about the whole "woooooo the world is ending stuff is happening".

But yeah, everything else is complete shit.
 

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DA2 is the best writing Bioware have ever produced. They limited themselves to what they do best - relationship between characters. The plot is moved by characters and their motivations, something almost unheard of in video game writing. I even like some of the characters as people, like Isabella, Varric, Anders to an extent. The others aren't so bad either, the worst is perhaps Fenris, followed by Sebastian.
 

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What were the worst things about DA II ?

The wave-style encounter design.

DA 1 was already terrible with its copypasted mobs, but DA 2 took it to a whole new level. Holy shit. Whoever designed those encounters clearly was one of those people at Bioware who don't like the gameplay, because it shows utter lack of understanding towards what makes gameplay fun. They just slapped mobs into the maps that would attack in waves, so all the trash encounters took especially long to go through. What an uninteresting waste of time.

Did you play the actual game (and not just the demo)? Because the trash in DA2 is a lot faster to clean up than in DA.
 

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What were the worst things about DA II ?

The wave-style encounter design.

DA 1 was already terrible with its copypasted mobs, but DA 2 took it to a whole new level. Holy shit. Whoever designed those encounters clearly was one of those people at Bioware who don't like the gameplay, because it shows utter lack of understanding towards what makes gameplay fun. They just slapped mobs into the maps that would attack in waves, so all the trash encounters took especially long to go through. What an uninteresting waste of time.

Did you play the actual game (and not just the demo)? Because the trash in DA2 is a lot faster to clean up than in DA.

The combat is faster in DA2, but you get more waves of enemies so that evens things out. I agree the encounter design is worse in DA2.
 

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What were the worst things about DA II ?

The wave-style encounter design.

DA 1 was already terrible with its copypasted mobs, but DA 2 took it to a whole new level. Holy shit. Whoever designed those encounters clearly was one of those people at Bioware who don't like the gameplay, because it shows utter lack of understanding towards what makes gameplay fun. They just slapped mobs into the maps that would attack in waves, so all the trash encounters took especially long to go through. What an uninteresting waste of time.

Did you play the actual game (and not just the demo)? Because the trash in DA2 is a lot faster to clean up than in DA.

The combat is faster in DA2, but you get more waves of enemies so that evens things out. I agree the encounter design is worse in DA2.

Neither game had any encounter design aside from a handful of bosses.
 

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