Dragon Age Dragon Age: Origins is ten years old today

[Wulfric Pinewood]

It was good game.

 

[Wunderbar]

It was good game.

what a rotten way to die.

 

[Cael]

The Calling sounds almost exactly like The Long Walk from Judge Dredd, where Judges of retirement age venture out into the inhospitable wasteland to dispense justice to the lawless in what is basically a form of ritualistic suicide. The similarities go further because in Dragon Age The Calling is known by another name - The Long Walk. Judge Dredd is a really bleak universe, so it could be indicative of what Bioware were originally shooting for. The series definitely lost some of that grit by Inquisition.

It lost some of its grit even before the release of the first one. The original idea for the Calling was that you succumb to it fast after joining the Wardens. They just slapped a random number as a work in progress without really thinking, but when they realized that the time frame they gave the writers (around 10 years) is too generous it was too late to change it.

The idea is still reflected in the early trailer in which young warden goes to his ritualistic suicide.

DAO explicitly said you have about 30 years before the Calling came calling.

 

[Technomancer]

DAO explicitly said you have about 30 years before the Calling came calling.

Then it is even worse. That was an unneeded mistake for the setting. Btw 30 is max, usually it happens sooner.

 

[Cael]

DAO explicitly said you have about 30 years before the Calling came calling.

Then it is even worse. That was an unneeded mistake for the setting. Btw 30 is max, usually it happens sooner.

I think Alistair specifically said "You've got 30 years, give or take."

 

[Technomancer]

I think Alistair specifically said "You've got 30 years, give or take."

WOG from Gaider:

TUK: On that note, you've said that it takes about thirty years more or less between the Joining and the Calling, ish, [DG grimaces audibly and visibly]...sorry! What can accelerate or decelerate that process if anything, or is it something you created that you now regret?

DG: It's something I put in Alistair's dialogue that I now regret! Afterwards I was like, "Wow, thirty years is a long time for that time frame." I didn't really intend when I was writing it, and only afterwards when I went back I said "Oh...I guess it does sort of implies thirty years after you take the Joining, doesn't it..." That wasn't really my intention. But it's out there now so I'm like, okay, thirty years. But the idea is also that it varies. Thirty years is the maximum that you could probably expect. It's going to vary for an individual according to their willpower and the level of their interaction with the darkspawn. During a Blight you can expect that the Grey Wardens are going to have shorter lifespans. Outside of a Blight the Grey Wardens would tend to live longer. We have instances in the game of people going on their Calling after five or ten years. Alistair's thirty year quote shouldn't be taken as gospel, that's the way I like it.

TUK: I'm really glad you said that because I took it that you wouldn't live past thirty, and it was only the fact that everybody else seemed to think it was the opposite that pulled me with them.

DG: Well, if Duncan was thirty years old, he would look pretty good for thirty. Yeah, so it's supposed to be a maximum thirty years after you take the Joining but it can vary, so I'd say the rule of thumb right now is between ten and thirty years, is the most common.

 

[Cael]

I think Alistair specifically said "You've got 30 years, give or take."

WOG from Gaider:

TUK: On that note, you've said that it takes about thirty years more or less between the Joining and the Calling, ish, [DG grimaces audibly and visibly]...sorry! What can accelerate or decelerate that process if anything, or is it something you created that you now regret?

DG: It's something I put in Alistair's dialogue that I now regret! Afterwards I was like, "Wow, thirty years is a long time for that time frame." I didn't really intend when I was writing it, and only afterwards when I went back I said "Oh...I guess it does sort of implies thirty years after you take the Joining, doesn't it..." That wasn't really my intention. But it's out there now so I'm like, okay, thirty years. But the idea is also that it varies. Thirty years is the maximum that you could probably expect. It's going to vary for an individual according to their willpower and the level of their interaction with the darkspawn. During a Blight you can expect that the Grey Wardens are going to have shorter lifespans. Outside of a Blight the Grey Wardens would tend to live longer. We have instances in the game of people going on their Calling after five or ten years. Alistair's thirty year quote shouldn't be taken as gospel, that's the way I like it.

TUK: I'm really glad you said that because I took it that you wouldn't live past thirty, and it was only the fact that everybody else seemed to think it was the opposite that pulled me with them.

DG: Well, if Duncan was thirty years old, he would look pretty good for thirty. Yeah, so it's supposed to be a maximum thirty years after you take the Joining but it can vary, so I'd say the rule of thumb right now is between ten and thirty years, is the most common.

Gaider can go suck a dick (which he would actually like). Ingame, it is 30 years give or take. Until they actually rectified that ingame, that is what it is.

 

[Apostle Hand]

leliana is such cute girl

is there some porn mod for her?

 

[Kliwer]

Dragon Age: Origins - a cRPG prophet


7 years ago I truly liked this game, but I haven't re-play it from those time. The thing is - this game, as every story-driven RPG, is not very good to re-play if you remember everything (in contrast to tactical-based RPGs like Baldur's Gate or ToEE). I could re-play BG or IWD every 1-2 years and have fun, but in case of DA:O I have firstly to forget most of content. Now is the time.


The game, as I noticed, is very popular among casuals, but in the same time is heavily criticized by hard-core cRPG players (like honorable people gathered on this Forum). This is stupid and unfounded. In fact this game should be prized mostly by real RPG fans, especially those who have PnP background. Sure - many things could be better executed. But still - the game offer many unique features which are not found elsewhere. We can agree that many of these properties should be standard. But unfortunately they are not, which makes DA:O unrivaled in many fields.


I will not write about most obvious features and faults like combat system (which is too "MMOish" but functional), too few enemy types (which is hard to forgive in a fantasy setting), too linear and trash combat-heavy dungeons (almost all longer cRPGs have this - I'm looking at You my beloved Arcanum), imbalanced character system (which means nothing if you are not a retarded munchkin). I will limit myself to describe only three features which make this game (for me) a masterpiece on par with BG, Planescape Torment and best M&M games.


1. The story and world-building.

To be honest DA:O is my favorite game from this point of view. This is classical fantasy setting with all recognizable post-Tolkien plots and themes: underground dwarven kingdom, powerful wizards, invasion of dark hordes etc. In the same time everything is a bit deeper than in a typical fantasy setting. We have more explanations and more details about lore. Ferelden itself has enough political, historical and cultural details to call it: "typical fantasy kingdom, but better, more unique and realistic". I like that this "uniqueness" has been achieved not by intrusion of super-duper magical events (like in D&D) or building something totally alien and bizarre (as in Morrowind). It's much more subtle. I enjoy reading about a role of war hounds in this society, about former occupation of this country by Orlais (what resonates in the statements of NPCs), about its monarchic-republican system. As a great lover of dwarves I admire how Orzammar is presented. Everything about dwarven kingdom is consistent with fantasy canon, but in the same time it's more then: "dwarves live underground, work in mines and like beer" (as in D&D or, for example, Divine Divinity and similar worlds). The caste system (and its consequences for dwarves without clan), the election of the monarch, unique customs and institutions (such as "noble hunters", religious approach to ancestors, worshiping "the Stone") perfectly harmonize with the typical image of "sons of Durin", while adding many unique and interesting features.

I also admire that this is a world full of mysteries. Some of them (like a riddle of golems) will be explained during our adventures. But others not ("Is the Maker real?", "What is the nature of Fade?", "Were elves really once immortal?"). Nowadays too many fantasy worlds tried to explain everything. The worst examples of such approach are D&D (Tempus is 30 level fighter/20 level cleric with god power of 5th level... and other such bullshit) or Pillars of Eternity (where we learn all rules governing the universe, gods, life and death in one game). In DA:O universe there is a place for different philosophies, for different religions etc. There is a place for mystery, which is a core of fantasy. It's great to compare some codex entries written by different people and from different perspectives (religious approach of Chantry scholars, pseudo-scientific explanations of wizards, myths of wood elves, fairytales of human commoners etc.).

Really: show me one game with an equally well-described and extensive CLASSICAL fantasy world. I find none. If someone prefers unique and original worlds, he will prefer Morrowind, Dark Sun or Planescape. But if we want to fight a dragon, drink a pint of beer with a dwarf, tease a fanatical paladin (means: "Templar"), fight a battle on behalf of a good king etc. - there is no better world than DA:O.


2. Diverse gameplay

Almost every long cRPG has one major problem - monotony. In such games, we often do exactly the same things from start to finish. Even in my favorite BG2, the gameplay practically does not change its nature: we start somewhere in a city (dialogues, shopping, quests-gathering), then we go to the "dungeon" where we clean room by room, battle after battle, collect loot, return to town and repeat all over again. The formula is the same all the time. It is even worse in games such as M&M6, where only the numbers grow from level to level. I believe that cRPG games should be long (because only then we can really enjoy, for example, character development), but at the same time the nature of the game should change, new elements and themes should be introduced. DA:O tries to do it, although not perfectly.

DA:O offers really diverse tasks (although the density of interesting themes could be greater). Let's list a few:

- Mages tower and wandering in Fade. I really like this stage (although I understand that it can be boring during 3-4 re-play). It is an exceptionally atmospheric adventure, where we wander around the world of demons, having the city of God himself on the edge of our gaze. This is one of those stages that is exceptionally good if we get into the mood and activate our imagination. It must be added that the entire mechanics of the journey in the Fade (with shape-changing and a separate map, etc.) deserves recognition. It is like a cool puzzle-level (the challenge is mainly to manipulate our forms to overcome the toughest fights). This stage would of course be better if we had more logic puzzles to solve - but it's still quite a unique adventure.

- Organizing the defense of Radcliffe. Classic of PnP RPGs - we have to defend a village by organizing its inhabitants and inventing tactical stratagems. It was done quite well. And the additional plus is that we can ignore this whole quest.

- The quest for the holy urn. A great fight with a dragon, plus "trials" in the style of Indiana Jones.

- At a later stage, a fantastically realized escape from prison (again: PnP classic).

- The Landsmeet. This is one of those great diplomatic tasks that appear in cRPGs from time to time (legation to Caladon in Arcanum, trial in NWN2, debate in the palace of the prince in Pillars of Eternity). DA:O probably did this kind of task in a best way. Although, of course, you could dream of a more reactive gameplay, here the consequences of our decisions are relatively numerous and relatively important.

- An entire final battle with its own unique ally-summoning mechanics. I like how it was conceived. We have a sense of being in command in a truly epic battle. Personally, I do not know a cRPG that would better show the player's participation in a great battle (e.g. attempts to achieve something like that in Gothic 3 or Skyrim were quite pathetic). This stage has sadly much too low difficulty level. The game should assume, that it should be very difficult to achieve victory. For example a "bad ending" should be implemented, where the battle is lost and “everyone dies” (of course it would cause a terrible pain in casual’s ass).

All of the above makes the game interesting for me from start to finish. Honestly, even those long dungeons with repeatable opponents do not bother me too much, because I have a feeling that something unique can pop up at every turn. Even such Deep Roads have their charm for me - because it's like a reminiscence of the Fellowship's journey through Moria…

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep
In hollow halls beneath the fells.


3. A unique main character.

DA:O is one of the few PC games that respect the basic principles that are the heart of PnP RPGs: our need to create a unique character and tell our own story. What is it like to play an RPG with a good game master? You start from thinking about your character. You describe his biography and physical and psychological characteristics on 4-5 A4 pages, then you try to fit him into the mechanics of the system, negotiating with the game master some bends of ruleset ("my noble warrior should have diplomacy as a class skill!"). Then the game master fits our character into the campaign, prepares personal events, side quests and biographical references, introduces your family members, friends and enemies to the main storyline. Even little things can dramatically increase the fun of the game in such campaign. Generic hunt for bandits take on color when the local constable is our cousin, the chief of the gang is our personal sworn enemy, and the robbed noblewoman is our annoying old aunt.

DA:O tries to recreate this formula. First: we can choose one from 5 starting “origins”. This “origins” in general cover most of fantasy archetypes you could imagine (a declassed nobleman, a revenge-hungry commoner, a wizard raised in a tower...). Obviously we could dream about more options (I personally feel the lack of some second origin for the wizard - e.g. an apostate apprentice or a Dalish magician - and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind), but those 5 starting biographies are still impressive. During the prologue stories we not only gain knowledge about the culture and family of our hero, but also we can define our attitude towards them (a dwarven nobleman can be a power-hungry bastard and kin-slayer, as well as a honest naive who is maneuvered into political intrigue). We'll eventually become a Gray Warden at the end of the day, but our biography plays a vital role throughout the game. It is noticed in dialogues by NPCs and gives us additional dialogue options (even if mostly only cosmetic ones). While playing DA:O, I have the impression that almost always one of the dialogue options fits my character. This is the opposite of Pillars of Eternity, where sometimes all the lines offered to me were utterly shitty. In many cRPGs, our character creation is really limited to the mechanical aspects (whether we will defeat enemies with fireballs, swords or by backstabbing). In terms of plot, we are crammed into the frame of some imposed personality ("Bhaal's child", "Watcher" etc.). DA:O tries to counter this anti-RPG logic, at least partially.

The efforts of the creators to root our character in the game world deserve recognition. In most cRPGs our character is outlander, without any local relations (again: as in Pillars of Eternity). Even in better games which recognize some features of our character in dialogs (like Arcanum) our character is just a set of tags (dialogue option for "good character", for "thief", for "elf" etc.). We are unable to tell our own consistent story, there is no location in the game world that we can call home. In the worst cases, the plot of the game does not suit our character at all. I remember my disgust in NWN2 when it turned out that my rigorous gold-dwarf, a proud cleric of Moradin was raised by a hideous forest elf in some shitty human village. What a disgrace!

DA:O achieves much better results in this field. There is one big main story quest associated with each "origin". Even if changes in the structure of these quests are small, additional dialogues and our emotional involvement in resolving a given conflict completely change the reception. My dwarven noble hero is just approaching Orzammar. I have a big dilemma which candidate to the crown is worth my support. Should I get my personal revenge on my traitorous brother? Or should I forgive him in the name of clan solidarity (It would be terrible if the Aeducans lost crown and throne)? The best part is that the game supports both approaches in dialogues. From previous playthroughs I remember that my Dalish elf had tons of unique dialogues and that my human noble rogue finished as a king of Ferelden.

===================


Conclusion

Dragon Age: Origins has invented a new formula for cRPG. A formula that truly recreates the PnP experience. Of course, many things could (and should) be improved. In future games one would expect more “origins” and their greater impact on the main storyline. There should be more situations where our calling as the Gray Warden clash with our personal problems (e.g. would a player decide to give up one of the allied armies in exchange for the life of beloved father/sister/etc.?). There should be paths to "lose" the game - eg by screwing up one or two of the main quests (in current state of the game it is impossible to not defeat the Blight).

DA:O’s formula should have become the basis for the further development of story-based cRPG games. The recipe seems easy to follow: a relatively simple but reactive storyline, with lots of choices and different endings. Dialogues and quests written with different main characters in mind. The main character deeply rooted in the game world and plot. What's not to love? However, this did not happen. The Dragon Age series itself betrayed its own assumptions, giving birth to more modern, primitive pseudo-RPGs. No other studio has attempted to imitate and develop DA:O formula. It's a pity, it is a missed opportunity to take cRPGs to a new level.

DA:O is not a perfect games. But it shows how the perfect game could be. It’s a brilliant prototype, but sadly only a prototype. This is an unheard cRPG prophet who showed the right way. A way that nobody took. Instead of games which try to recreate PnP experience, which try to develop RP aspects, we are still receiving pseudo-movies in style of Witcher 3 or hiking simulators like Skyrim.

 

[Cael]

DA:O was a good start. But that was all it was. It spent the bulk of its time world building.

And that is why the sequels failed.

Once the world building was done, the devs were lost. They don't know what to do now. They had no plans, no ideas, nothing. So, they went all out on the gimmicks. MMO game play, large numbers, woketardism, and went straight from crapsack world to "Holy Hell, how did this world survive the last 1000 years when every last inhabitant of it is this frakking dumb?"

 

[MajorMace]

Dragon Age: Origins has invented a new formula for cRPG. A formula that truly recreates the PnP experience.

 

[Technomancer]

and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind

Actually was one of the few that resisted the cutting for longest.

 

[baud]

and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind

Actually was one of the few that resisted the cutting for longest.

it was also written by local resident MRY

 

[Technomancer]

and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind

Actually was one of the few that resisted the cutting for longest.

it was also written by local resident MRY

Oh rly? Never knew he once worked with Bioware. Any links with more info on cut stuff?

 

[baud]

and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind

Actually was one of the few that resisted the cutting for longest.

it was also written by local resident MRY

Oh rly? Never knew he once worked with Bioware. Any links with more info on cut stuff?

I think I linked to his post with the most info (at least the one I could find). There's also this:

Perhaps my only meaningful contribution to the game was getting them not to name the main mountain range "the Kozarks." Oh, Canada...

You'll have to search through MRY's posting history to see if you find more

 

[Flying Dutchman]

Just popped into this thread to make sure DA wasn't getting a cash-snatch remaster like Mass Effect.

But knowing EA, it'll probably happen sometime soon once people completely forget about DA2.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The series definitely lost some of that grit by Inquisition.

It's not even close by Inquisition.
When I think of grittiness in DAO, I think of the part about the brood mothers. They're created by forcefeeding females tainted flesh and presumably raping them, the first one you encounter is a dwarf female who was forcefed her family members.

First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast.
Now you lay and wait, for their screams will haunt you in your dreams.

 

[Tyrr]

The series definitely lost some of that grit by Inquisition.

It's not even close by Inquisition.
When I think of grittiness in DAO, I think of the part about the brood mothers. They're created by forcefeeding females tainted flesh and presumably raping them, the first one you encounter is a dwarf female who was forcefed her family members.

First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast.
Now you lay and wait, for their screams will haunt you in your dreams.

I hate everything about DA:I so much.
DA2 was also bad, but more a disappointing rush-job. It could had been a good game with a few more years of development. DA:I is rotten to its core.

 

[Nano]

A thought came to me just now regarding the whole Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice. So Harrowmont is supposed to be the spineless moderate, otherwise known as a liberal. And Bhelen is supposed to be the tyrant who cares about the little people, so he's essentially an authoritarian leftist. Considering how much Bioware has made it clear that they consider Bhelen to be the "correct" choice, have they basically been writing Leninist/Marxist-Leninist propaganda?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A thought came to me just now regarding the whole Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice. So Harrowmont is supposed to be the spineless moderate, otherwise known as a liberal. And Bhelen is supposed to be the tyrant who cares about the little people, so he's essentially an authoritarian leftist. Considering how much Bioware has made it clear that they consider Bhelen to be the "correct" choice, have they basically been writing Leninist/Marxist-Leninist propaganda?

royalty being described as leftist is funny

 

[Nano]

royalty being described as leftist is funny

That's basically what the Communist leaders in the USSR were.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

A thought came to me just now regarding the whole Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice. So Harrowmont is supposed to be the spineless moderate, otherwise known as a liberal. And Bhelen is supposed to be the tyrant who cares about the little people, so he's essentially an authoritarian leftist. Considering how much Bioware has made it clear that they consider Bhelen to be the "correct" choice, have they basically been writing Leninist/Marxist-Leninist propaganda?

Wrong mode of production, chaver. Bhelen's siding with the Dwarven bourgeoisie against Orzammar's aristocracy and the traditional system from which the latter benefit in order for capitalism to develop (e.g. fostering trade with the outside world and removing some of the restrictions on the casteless which would in turn lead to more Dwarves being willing to abandon their traditional caste roles as well as shattering the artisanal monopoly on basic commodities by allowing for presumably cheaper imports).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

royalty being described as leftist is funny

That's basically what the Communist leaders in the USSR were.

I can't think of anything less leftist than supporting a monarchy.

 

[Mexi]

It is such shame that we didn't get a sequel.

Would've been a great series if they kept it non-voiced protagonist and just improved on the DA: O system instead of changing it altogether with "push a button, something awesome happens!" bullshit. I don't even know wtf happened after Origins. What I'm reading sounds like they really went a different direction altogether. DA: O really was dark as fuck, though.

The one thing I'm really interested in seeing what happens is if you cross the Fade with Morrigan... also wtf the Dark City is.

 

[Cael]

A thought came to me just now regarding the whole Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice. So Harrowmont is supposed to be the spineless moderate, otherwise known as a liberal. And Bhelen is supposed to be the tyrant who cares about the little people, so he's essentially an authoritarian leftist. Considering how much Bioware has made it clear that they consider Bhelen to be the "correct" choice, have they basically been writing Leninist/Marxist-Leninist propaganda?

Harrowmont is not a moderate. He is a traditionalist. Unfortunately, he wasn't up for the job because he couldn't handle the stress and was weak (i.e., easily swayed, couldn't make and keep a decision, etc.). Note that Harrowmont never wanted to rule. He only stepped forward because no one else could take on Bhelen with any chance of success. His motivation was purely to stop Bhelen. It is very apparent if you played a dwarven noble.

Bhelen is the totalitarian liberal. He wanted to abolish the caste system, bring the oppressed casteless into the fold, talked a lot about fairness and the need to change dwarven society to be more accepting and open, and if you questioned him, he would cancel you permanently. And he doesn't care if you are his own family or not, and is not above using criminals to do his dirty work. It is by no coincidence that he eventually abolished the Senate and ruled alone.

The entire scenario was a bad and worse choice. And the stupid part was that even if you get declared a Paragon at the end of the game, and is therefore considered a living god by the dwarves, you can't change the ending.