Interview Dungeon Siege expansion interview on PC.IGN

[Voss]

not to mention that BG didn't actually have any goblins.

and PS:T was an RPG because of all the choices, decisions, personal exploration and decisions about how the character should act.

 

[Binary]

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[Astromarine]

wheee, it's the weekly "let's argue in circles because we have different base definitions" discussion. Each person defines RPG his own way, and telling him he's wrong is fucking useless. Grow out of it, both of you.

As for DS in particular, I'll let you call it an RPG for the sake of discussion, but you have STILL not said ANYTHING about why it's *good*. For me it's the PINNACLE of crap.

I've asked you two time, here's the third. Please describe, in your own words, DS combat, and tell me why it's interesting. Please do not say again that the combat is interesting because it doesn't lag and you respawn quickly. Don't be a fucking ass. Quake 3 also follows those principles. Tell me why it's *good*, once and for all.

 

[Sol Invictus]

They're both RPGs, one story-oriented, the other combat-oriented, but they're both still RPGs. As is Diablo 2. As is Dungeon Siege, like it or not.

Just because it's marketed as an RPG does not make it so.

Never. Trust. Marketing.

Oh and good example of putting PST in that list. What makes it an RPG? The stats had little to no influence on the game, and the combats were slightly worse than its brother's Baldur's "oh no, not another goblin" Gate.

I ought to hurt you for that, but I won't. Instead, I'll resort to pointing out how wrong you are. Planescape: Torment was heavily dependent on stats - each stat allowed you access to certain dialogue options which would otherwise be unavailable to you. Having a massive amount of strength for instance allowed you to intimidate people, while having dexterity allowed you to pickpocket people in conversation or catch the hand of a thief in order to increase your pickpocketing ability. High charisma resulted in better reactions and having wisdom allowed you to spot details and remember more things about your memories. Intelligence gave access to skills and choices that would otherwise be unavailable to you - i.e. Githzerai translation.

So if DS is not a RPG, then PST is a point'n'click adventure game.

Imbecile.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Probably adding more wood to the fire, i'd like to add this.

I played a bit of Dungeon Siege. I didn't finished it (i don't think i even got to half of it :shock: ) but i didn't liked the fact that combat was automated as in NWN. Because, AFAIR, DS's combat was point, click, and wait, much like NWN. A lack of lag and quick respanws don't necessarily make the combat better, though they certainly help one's appraisal of it. True, the more you used a skill, the more it increased, but thats not always what makes an RPG. I liked the graphics alot, but it didn't help me consider the game any better. In fact, considering i'm a mute farmer who decided to save the world of Ebb with a shovel (or whatever it was) didn't helped matter much.

Now do i think its an RPG?

1. Simple FedEx quests.
2. Developing melee, ranged, nature magic and combat magic skills the more you use them... and thats all, iirc. 4 general skills that increase by use is not much fun. Given all other party NPCs act the same way in customization... meh.
3. There is no motivation whatsoever, so characterization is pretty much out the window.
4. Combat... er, its there, but unlike Diablo (and this is clearly visible), you don't have to worry that much (if at all) with it. The more people in yor party, the more you can point, click and wait. The task will be dealt with fairly shortly. I don't remember fighting one skirmish that needed my input... well, alright i toggled the camera in combat some times. Woe is me.
5. AI is... well, there, but dumbified. I clearly remember seeing enemies engaging in melee and not doing anything else. When i noticed some foes running off trying to make me follow them i thought "well this won't last", and i was right, because i switched to ranged weapons, and the minute i hit them, their possible luring of my party faded, as they approached me again for melee renegotiation.

If anything, what makes DS combat different from D2's is the removing of the constant clicking, since DS needs only one. Now, i hesitate to call it a betterment, mainly because "better" is subjective. But its understandable that one click only is better than constant clicking to some people, mind you.

But again, do i consider it an RPG? Hmmm... well i have very strange ideas about what makes or not an RPG, ideas that are not either well met by others, and they are generally being tested each time i play more and more games. When i look at Wizardry, i see a Combat-RPG. When i look at Diablo and D2 i see an Action-RPG (or Hack-n-Slash). Planescape and Arcanum are definetely RPGs, period. When i look at Morrowind i call it a cross between an Action-RPG and an Open-Ended Game (like GTA was). And when i look at DS, i would call it an Action-RPG (Hack-n-Slash), but that aspect is so high and characterization and roleplay are so staggering low that i don't properly know. I'd call it a Gauntlet type of game, at best. But then again, Gauntlet amused me more than DS, so... humm... yeah.... I'd hesitate in calling DS an RPG... Action/Adventure with customizable aspects? A 3D point'n'click figthing game with skills? Oh wait, thats not an attention-grabber, is it? And it prolly won't fit in the gamebox, too...

In essence, the dilluting of genres nowadays contributes to this mess... but then again, if it weren't for said dillution, would we get System Shock and Deus Ex? Or Anachronox? Or Thief? Or Planetside? Or others? I don't call every game with a level up and skill system an RPG, but thats one of the more important aspects in calling a game an RPG, isn't it? You tend to see more games focusing on customization of characters and handling of statistics than actual role-play and characterization of PCs and NPCs, and get away with calling them RPGs (i still remember the first time i played Diablo, and of how many times i told everyone to avoid that RPG-slandering beast of profanity, for it was a tool of devious devils of marketing... but now i call it Action-RPG and just let it be ). But even then, i don't know what to call many games, or what to think of them... what would i call Alternate Reality (which needs a damn good upgrade/revision for today's market, methinks)? What would i call Elite? What would Shadowcaster be? Even on consoles, what would we call Final Fantasy, Fable, Romancing Saga, or Shadowrun?

To summarise my intervention which will either be ignored by the vast intelligent majority, or pummeled to death by Rosh because he considers me impotent and a Bioware lackey, its fun and educational to argue about what makes/unmakes a game an RPG. But in cases like these, we could draw endless examples which won't further the discussion in anything. So its safe to ask that you don't get overhyped over debates like these. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts, and they're all subject to multiple interpretations so this conversation, unless stopped or redirected, won't go much everywhere.


Cheers.

 

[Araanor]

If anything, what makes DS combat different from D2's is the removing of the constant clicking, since DS needs only one. Now, i hesitate to call it a betterment, mainly because "better" is subjective. But its understandable that one click only is better than constant clicking to some people, mind you.

Did you notice that you can click and hold in D2? Now, the thing with this constant clicking, as you call it, is that you're actually doing something. In Dungeon Siege you're just... watching. Sometimes, you feel inclined to pull back a bit so your headless chickens won't rush into a gang of monsters.

 

[Whipporowill]

Anyone familiar with Progress Quest? Hehe. It's fitting, and quite on topic.

http://www.progressquest.com/

 

[Sol Invictus]

Diablo 2 involved actual gameplay - something that Dungeon Siege addicts can't seem to get a grasp of. Puns all intended.

 

[Voss]

Actually...I would say that WIz 1 isn't an RPG.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

And Wolfenstein 3D is not a shooter. How could I have missed it.

For me a role playing game involves adopting a role in the game world, and having real effects on your character, the events and other individuals (characters), in that world, based on choices you make while playing. With choice being paramount, and how you do something is as important as what you do. and your choices should obviously affect later choices as well.

Ah, OK. So judging from your words Ultima 7 is not a RPG. You see, there are no earlier choices or latter choices: in order to finish the game you are going to do all those tasks needed to prevent the Guardian to enter, and during the game the behaviour of the NPCs won't change.

Oh dear. I have been playing RPGs for more than a dozen years and now I find it's a lie. U7 and Wiz1 aren't RPGs.

Hell, the Sims is more of an RPG than DS is, but it isn't something I'd like to play.

:shock:

Since DS is obviously a RPG, then apparently from the sentence above Sims is an RPG too.

Maybe I should dedicate myself to strategy games like pacman, shooters like sim city or arcade games like laser squad...

I just find the key of what makes an RPG to be interaction. (And wiz1, despite its coolness at the time, lacked interaction, so to *me* it isn't an RPG)
You don't. Fine. Since neither of us have any control over how the industry defines and advertises things, it really doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Binary]

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