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Durrr, Jagged Alliance 2 combat is HARD

Pliskin

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The Genius said:
Zhuangzi said:
They're both outstanding games, neither of which have ever been equalled. But I will say that after playing JA2 a lot, the combat in XCOM becomes tedious (all that moving around the map looking for enemies - which JA2 does in realtime) and faceless (without unique mercs). I am still waiting for a XCOM type game with the combat mechanics and wit of JA2. Looks like I'll be waiting a long time. :?

Exactly the post I was going to make. I still don't know why this hasn't been implemented in some form. Both games have large fanbases.

Exactly the same question I've been asking for the last 10 years.
 

Annonchinil

Scholar
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Mar 12, 2007
Messages
844
All right guys I am stuck at the game settings screen, what are some good options for a 1st play through as a person who never played this style of game before?
 
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Motherfuckerville
Annonchinil said:
All right guys I am stuck at the game settings screen, what are some good options for a 1st play through as a person who never played this style of game before?

Probably go on Novice (trust me, it's not "easy mode" in the traditional sense), don't turn on "Tons O' Guns", keep it on Realistic (Sci-Fi adds a lot of complication), and non-ironman.

When you make your IMP merc, crank wisdom like there's no tomorrow, get a good agility, some decent strength,and a good markmanship. Answer the quiz carefully too, as it determines personality traits and gives you a skill bonus.

Have fun.
 

The_scorpion

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
1,056
Pliskin said:
The Genius said:
Zhuangzi said:
They're both outstanding games, neither of which have ever been equalled. But I will say that after playing JA2 a lot, the combat in XCOM becomes tedious (all that moving around the map looking for enemies - which JA2 does in realtime) and faceless (without unique mercs). I am still waiting for a XCOM type game with the combat mechanics and wit of JA2. Looks like I'll be waiting a long time. :?

Exactly the post I was going to make. I still don't know why this hasn't been implemented in some form. Both games have large fanbases.

Exactly the same question I've been asking for the last 10 years.

just out of curiosity, what would an "x-com type game" look like if you replace what is in x-com with ja2's combat and wit?
what particuliar elements would be preserved and why?
storyline? setting? else?
also, maybe the x-com fanbase would disagree at having more unique mercs (i think someone stated that before in the thread)
 

Lightknight

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Messages
705
I am still waiting for a XCOM type game with the combat mechanics and wit of JA2. Looks like I'll be waiting a long time.
Hey, i'm still waiting for XCom type game with the combat mechanics of XCom. And here you come along with another idea to distort original gameplay. Thanks, man ! Its because of ideas like yours that we get all this UFO:After crap and still no decent successor to the XCom IP.
 

Balor

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Dec 29, 2004
Messages
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Russia
What, 5 pages of JA2 combat discussion, and not a single mention of Brigade E5/7.62?!
I'm about to fix that!

While not technically TB (unless you really buy into the explanation that SPM is really TB, but with REALLY small turns... which might be true technically, but gameplay is definetely RTwP), they have THE BEST tactical combat ever.
Much more realistic then Ja2, too.

Of course, they lack the wit of Ja2, great voice acting, stability (well, not that Ja2 was a shining example of buglessness) and strategic element not as fun, but still: when it comes to combat, it's a pure winner.

Cannot be assed to repeat myself, search any Brigade E5 related-thread for my replies and see for yourself.

Only thing that is really missing is 'acrobatics' and destructible enviroments... and now that is mostly compared to SS, not Ja2.
 

Lightknight

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
705
What, 5 pages of JA2 combat discussion, and not a single mention of Brigade E5/7.62?!
Thanks, but no thanks. Squad level tactics in real-time ? Ahahaha.
 

The_scorpion

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many people were very excited by the idea of Be5 while it was developed and when they saw the product... the usual letdown :-D

Admittedly, we may have been misguided by the horrible Demo :-/
 

Zhuangzi

Scholar
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Sep 11, 2008
Messages
307
I heard Brigade E5 was bugged to hell, so I left it.

I am given to understand that 7.62 is somewhat better. I don't think it's available in the West yet? At least, Gamersgate are yet to release it. Is it worth paying US $40 or thereabouts for?
 

The_scorpion

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Messages
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the sad thing about 7.62 is, that the russian version might actually be a lot of fun for russian players, while localized english or german versions might end up as parodies of itself. :-/
 

spectre

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Messages
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Thanks, but no thanks. Squad level tactics in real-time ? Ahahaha.

With smart pause and time compression. Makes a difference.

Personally, I like the system used in Brigade E5 (Just as I liked the combat system in Ufo Afterlight), even though the game(s) have a full truckload of design flavs. It is a bit like the best of the two worlds - doesn't require having four hands and two monitors like your typical rts, and at the same time looks more lifelike than your regular turns.

However, it's bugged (I noticed few gamebreaking things, more like annoyances), but patchnig helps. Also, it's designed in a weird way, that unless you play it in a fairly specific way, you're either in for a rough ride, or you'll totally break the game for yourself.

That's actually a feeling I get from many other Russian games.

Another bummer is the pooor AI - most skirmishes devolve into - two groups meet half-way across the map, all guys drop to the ground and whoever has more accuracy and longer range wins. It's a little bit better if there are a few trees to hide behind, but overall, I feel there might have been more cover.
Aaaand, the final coffin nail - random battles popping up as you travel (reminds me of Final Fantasy 7, blargh), what's worse, you cannot see tham coming, and the popup allowing you to aviod combat pops up only occiasionally. But the terminal flav is that all these fights happen on something like 5 different maps (while travelling from one city to another you'll be attacked AT LEAST once, so see where it's going?).

However, I must say I had a deal of fun with Brigade, once you patch it, save often, and play in a certain way - take your time, don't pick up and complete 5 qests at once, slowly train your merc on road bandits while earning money from loot and bank account interest. When you'll feel comfortable with your finances, buy yourself an Mp5 (makes combat a pleasure until long arms arrive) and find yourself a travelling companion or two.
 

Balor

Arcane
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Dec 29, 2004
Messages
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AI is great, in fact. However, most of the enemies you'll be meeting are bandits - and they actually have simplified AI routines - I've read it on the offcial forums somewhere. Also, like it's mentioned, there is usually very little cover in random encounters (yea, en unfortunate design flaw).
However, the game really starts to shine when you battle in a city.

Enemies encircling you, showering with greandes, camping, and (unless it was added in 7.62, not sure) - they WILL notice 'corners of death' (once you've got covered) and attempt to quietly ambush the campers from behind.
I was caught a few times like that untill I began utilizing other mercs to keep lookout for wannabe ambushers while you are ambushing other ones, hah.

And btw, worth repeating - it's a game where no weapon (unless it's shitty weapon indeed) is useless.
Handguns are very important right to the end of the game due to the fact that they have very quick preparation time - which can buy you a vitally important split second - think cowboy showdown, but in a more down-to-life terms, like you are opening a door and being confronted by an enemy who also was unprepared.
One with quickest reflexes (character reflexes, players reflexes are irrelevant due to autopause), most experience and quickest weapon will win.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Yep. That's pecisely what I like about real time with pause - you get two hip-shots out of a handgun while the guy is juuust rising his shotgun.

And hmm. Seems I need to battle in the cities a bit more.
 

denizsi

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bosphorus
Codex might be elitist, but we don't need any further encampments within over trivial shit. There is a great deal of people here who like RTWP, including the implementations in IE games. Or people who don't necessarily like RTWP but like specific implementations in any specific game. Telling someone to GTFO over this, as if (s)he sucked Todd's cock, is meaningless. So, don't do that.

Anyway, I had an interesting experience, or rather, lack of experience, in JA2. I just started a new game, to try out mercs I've never played with before. It's day 3, I'm at Sam Site and,

Mike wasn't there. I've never had that happen to me before. Experienced, tons of guns, sci-fi. I took my usual route: Drassen > Alma > Cambria > Sam Site.

Any idea? I wonder if it's a bug or just that he doesn't turn out there in every play.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
I was pretty impressed with the Brigade E5 demo. Stuff like room entry does work better in that type of RTw/P (which is really more like 100-turns-a-second, with most of them automated) than in TB. There's still the usual RT problems with pathing, and any fights that get spread out tend to get incredibly annoying as you have to manage constant pauses that hop between points of focus, but it's definitely a tradeoff rather than a dumb down. Balor (among others) knows I typically shit on RTw/P at every opportunity.

As a complete game, though... I'll wait for an English 7.62mm
 

The Genius

Educated
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
38
The_scorpion said:
just out of curiosity, what would an "x-com type game" look like if you replace what is in x-com with ja2's combat and wit?
what particuliar elements would be preserved and why?
storyline? setting? else?
also, maybe the x-com fanbase would disagree at having more unique mercs (i think someone stated that before in the thread)

Not so much the unique mercs, more the combat system. I reinstalled Xcom a little while ago and found the process of tracking down aliens tedious in some areas. I like JA2 in that you don't have to move in a turn based way when you are not in combat. It just feels a lot more streamlined to me.

Both games use the interrupt system so it wouldn't be such a drastic change. That being said, there is something cool about possibly spotting an alien with only two time units to spare and realising you're dead as a doornail.

Really, if we could just have an updated version of xcom I'd be happy. Graphic update, some tech tree changes and some more aliens and craft would be enough really. Considering it's almost universally hailed as one of the best games of it's kind, I don't know why it hasn't been done. UFO Aftershock and it's ilk do not count.

EDIT - Did anyone here play UFO Extraterrestrials? Is it any good at all?
 

Zhuangzi

Scholar
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
307
The Genius said:
The_scorpion said:
just out of curiosity, what would an "x-com type game" look like if you replace what is in x-com with ja2's combat and wit?
what particuliar elements would be preserved and why?
storyline? setting? else?
also, maybe the x-com fanbase would disagree at having more unique mercs (i think someone stated that before in the thread)

Not so much the unique mercs, more the combat system. I reinstalled Xcom a little while ago and found the process of tracking down aliens tedious in some areas. I like JA2 in that you don't have to move in a turn based way when you are not in combat. It just feels a lot more streamlined to me.

Both games use the interrupt system so it wouldn't be such a drastic change. That being said, there is something cool about possibly spotting an alien with only two time units to spare and realising you're dead as a doornail.

Really, if we could just have an updated version of xcom I'd be happy. Graphic update, some tech tree changes and some more aliens and craft would be enough really. Considering it's almost universally hailed as one of the best games of it's kind, I don't know why it hasn't been done. UFO Aftershock and it's ilk do not count.

EDIT - Did anyone here play UFO Extraterrestrials? Is it any good at all?

I was about to mention UFO: Extraterrestrials, in actual fact. That was the closest thing to a direct XCOM clone. I was very excited about it in the months leading up to release, and quite active on the official forum. When the game was released, we realised it was broken in a number of ways. This was largely fixed by modders (not Chaos Concept - whose after-release support was diabolical). Bman, who lurks around various strategy game forums, even put the original XCOM aliens back into the game. Really, the modders saved this from complete disarray.

Having said that, UFO:ET is still a broken game. It isn't XCOM, though it tries to be. :cry:

just out of curiosity, what would an "x-com type game" look like if you replace what is in x-com with ja2's combat and wit?
what particuliar elements would be preserved and why?
storyline? setting? else?
also, maybe the x-com fanbase would disagree at having more unique mercs (i think someone stated that before in the thread)

I would like the JA2 engine to be used to replicate the XCOM storyline and gameplay, basically. A complete remake would be great. I don't even think the JA2 engine is really all that dated (graphics slightly). So if someone wants to make a XCOM mega-mod for JA2, that'd be swell. :P
 

Claw

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The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
spectre said:
And % to hit was a flat number, unaffected by range.
That's because it wasn't % to hit in the first place. In UFO, accuracy determines spread. I'm not sure about the exact mechanics, but I believe the % is the change of your shot being perfectly spot-on. A shot with only small deviation may still hit the target, especially at close range.
 

Zhuangzi

Scholar
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
307
The Genius said:
So with mods, UFO ET is worth playing?

You need the mods. Go to ufo-scene.com (if it's still there) and take a look in the mod forum. Game is pretty broken without the fixes bman and others provided.

EDIT: this is the link to Bman's mod:

http://ufo-scene.com/download.php?view.103

54,000 downloads on a now-comatose fan site tells you how essential this mod is.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
My dream game is now either a remake of Wasteland (not an exact remake, I mean with a more detailed game world and better implemented quests) with JA2 combat. Just imagine taking out a scorpotron... :cool:

The next closest in coolness would be a western gunslinger game with JA2 combat.
 

The_scorpion

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
1,056
denizsi said:
Anyway, I had an interesting experience, or rather, lack of experience, in JA2. I just started a new game, to try out mercs I've never played with before. It's day 3, I'm at Sam Site and,

Mike wasn't there. I've never had that happen to me before. Experienced, tons of guns, sci-fi. I took my usual route: Drassen > Alma > Cambria > Sam Site.

Any idea? I wonder if it's a bug or just that he doesn't turn out there in every play.


Mike is placed in the gameworld somewhat random. He can even be part of an enemy counterattack or an autoresolve battle. His face would be shown there, but seriously, who watches the faces at autoresolve battles

he also requires a detailed placement spot as an elite (or does he even need priority? i think not, but my memory is bad), that's why he usually appears in the same 3-4 locations in the vanilla game. But this might mean there was no active detailed elite placement during the progression level at which mike was set to appear. But more possible is that he died as part of a counterattack or other autoresolve scenarios.


Not noticing Mike happens sporadicly, whether he actually wasn't there or not is another question.

actually, he migth still turn up if you fight another map with detailed elite placements.
 

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