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Editting Thread 2 - Proof-reading

Discussion in 'The cRPG Player's Handbook' started by felipepepe, May 22, 2014.

  1. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Defender's Quest-
    Show Spoiler
    Defender’s Quest is simply a great game. This is definitely not the type of game I would normally play. In fact, I had never played a tower defense game before, or since. What really appealed to me about the game were the RPG elements, and it didn’t fail to deliver. The story combines with the combat and character development to make a surprisingly inspired game.

    There is an actual story to this game that drives everything forward. The main character, Azra, is infected by a plague and thrown into a pit, from where she must escape. As the story unfolds you’ll discover the driving force behind the plague and seek to put an end to it. I really enjoyed the writing and while the humor was a bit offbeat, there were several occasions where I literally laughed out loud. There’s the clichéd, somewhat dumb warrior (who has some priceless lines), a sarcastic archer, a noble knight, and a greedy egotistical dragon. It’s a great mixture that allows for all kinds of comedic interactions.

    The game is fairly straightforward; you have to protect your main character and defeat all the waves of attacking enemy forces. This is achieved through carefully positioning your characters at choke points on the map. Adding some tactical depth to the gameplay are the class system and magic spells. There are six different classes, which all have unique skills with varying areas of effect, so careful positioning is the key to victory. As characters level up, you spend points in their skill tree to unlock new abilities or improve existing ones. Azra is immobile during battles, but can spend mana to summon allies, or on various spells to assist in eliminating the hostile hordes. Coming up with strategies to leverage your army’s abilities towards victory, preferably flawless ones, is the real beauty of the combat system.

    All the maps have four levels of difficulty to choose from (with the harder tiers obviously netting better rewards), there’s a NG+ mode that adds a new type of currency for the best items, and the game is also surprisingly long, clocking around 20 hours.

    Believe me; even if this isn’t something you’d normally play, it is very capable of engulfing you with its charm. I loved it so much I didn’t even hesitate to pre-order Defender’s Quest II.
     
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  2. Servo Arcane

    Servo
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    "I had never played a tower defense game before, or since." s/b "and haven't since."

    "I really enjoyed the writing and, while the humor was a bit offbeat, there were several occasions where I literally laughed out loud."

    "As characters level up, you spend points in their skill trees to unlock new abilities or improve existing ones." Eh, maybe excise "in their skill tree" bit altogether.

    "there’s a NG+ mode that adds a new type of currency for the best items, and. The game is also surprisingly long, clocking around 20 hours." New thought.

    "Believe me; even" Is that really the proper use of a semicolon? I've always sucked at those. I would think a comma would suffice.
     
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  3. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Yeah, comma would definitely suffice.
     
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  4. Ninjerk Arcane

    Ninjerk
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    The problem isn't that a comma would suffice; the semicolon is used incorrectly. Semicolons can basically be used in place of ", [conjunction]." It is used to join two independent clauses that are closely related--enough that the writer feels that the clauses should be considered together.

    Relevant: http://theoatmeal.com/tag/grammar
     
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  5. HiddenX The Elder Spy Patron

    HiddenX
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    What about 1 new thread for each game-review we discuss?

    Otherwise: total chaos.
     
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  6. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
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    yeah man, chess is so repetitive

    I honestly don't think we should do content edits like these. I for one am not going to write a review if my points get nixed by the content-police :)
     
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  7. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
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    250 threads sounds chaotic as well... we'll do them in small batches, so they don't take too much time from the team and remain somewhat easy to debate.

    Yeah, I'm against content edit as well. If is something important, like "he didn't mention game X main feature!" they I'll run it back to the writer, but other wise we should keep it the author's view.
     
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  8. Jagged Appliance Arbiter

    Jagged Appliance
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    Yeah I'm wary about doing content edits. If some people think vital information is missing it might be better to just inform the reviewer and let them deal with it. If we decide to allow some content edits they should be agreed between 2 or 3 people, reverting to the original if there isn't a concensus.
    Edit: Felipe beat me to it

    What about American vs British English? Will we standardise the whole book or just make sure each review is internally consistent?
     
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  9. J_C One Bit Studio Patron Developer

    J_C
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    I don't think we will use just one of them (correct me Felipe if you think otherwise). I guess Felipepepe will be happy if he gets some decent english at all, be it american or british.
     
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  10. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
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    Exactly. Think about this more as a documentary and less as an essay or whatever. We should correct grammar mistakes, but big changes in style would damage the diversity of authors.

    My english is a mess, partially self-taught playing games with a dictionary on my lap, and there will be various non-native speakers as well, that can't really be converted into british or american english. So let's leave that as it is.
     
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  11. Jagged Appliance Arbiter

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    I really just meant in terms of spelling i.e. colour vs color or standardise vs standardize. I guess internal consistency for each review is the way to do it.
     
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  12. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
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    Yup.

    I'm glad we're having this talk. Now I can re-read my review and post it here without sounding like a complete retard and making you guys lose faith on the project. :)
     
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  13. Ninjerk Arcane

    Ninjerk
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    Can we call this the final pass and update the OP?
    Show Spoiler

    Purely from a writing standpoint, this is one of the most overlooked gems in the RPG genre. If you love story driven RPGs, I highly suggest considering this game. Tons of games talk about “Mature Themes," but this one really hits the nail on the head--not just from the adult language (which there’s a lot of, but it fits the game’s themes well). The story covers racism, slavery, political ambition, violence, and betrayal. This is not the clichéd story of a hero setting out to stop a great evil that threatens the world. The war between Orcs and Humans has been decidedly one-sided and, in a desperate bid to prevent the enslavement of all Orcs, an elite Orc military unit receives orders for a suicide mission: kill the Human emperor.

    The plot also contains a few unexpected and well developed twists, which turns the original plan into something much greater. I feel that both of the main characters are well-written and that it is interesting to see how their interactions with each other change as the story progresses. They are a very interesting matchup, a berserking Orc and a stealthy/smartass rogue.

    The developers also have done a good job connecting the characters' personality to their fighting style. In combat you can switch back and forth between characters at-will, but before it begins you have the opportunity to go into stealth with Styx, the goblin, and attempt to sneak up behind an enemy for an assassination. The Orc, Arkail, is a great embodiment of the berserker type warrior, and not just in the writing. The combat system actually contains a rage meter that fills when he takes damage. Once full, he literally goes into an uncontrollable rage. It can turn the tide of a battle in your favor due to the damage boost, but can also cost you a battle thanks to the lack of defense and potential to KO the Goblin, making this unique mechanic both interesting and potentially frustrating. On the other hand, it fits the character profile perfectly.

    Sadly, the game is really linear and there is almost no exploration. The maps are very railroaded with minimal detours to find an occasional loot. There are a handful of side quests, but they need to be done right then and there. And there’s pretty much no choice & consequence--the game is going to play out a certain way no matter what option you pick.

    Of Orcs and Men is definitely not for everyone, but if you enjoy story-driven RPGs there’s a very good chance you’ll find yourself sucked in wanting more of the amazing characters and world.
     
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  14. Jagged Appliance Arbiter

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    "The developers also have done a good job ..." I would change to "The developers have also done a good job ..."

    I agree with what servo said earlier:
    "They are a very interesting matchup, the berserking Orc and a stealthy/smartass rogue." should probably be "A berserking orc and a stealthy, smartass rogue make a very interesting duo." or similar.

    I'm not sure "an occasional loot" is correct.
     
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  15. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    gems of the Rpg genre?
    with the adult language?
     
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  16. Servo Arcane

    Servo
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    I'm still not sure why we're capitalizing Orc/Human/Goblin but I guess we're mostly just concerned with consistency. So change "Styx, the goblin" to "Styx, the Goblin."

    "The developers also have done a good job connecting the characters' personality to their fighting style." s/b "The developers also have done a good job connecting the characters' personalities to their fighting styles."

    I can live with either. The former sounds disjointed but I'm not sure it's wrong.

    I assumed this was some kind of British thing? Can't into Britishisms...

    Edit: This makes sense...

    "They are a very interesting matchup, the berserking Orc and the stealthy/smartass rogue."

    Or this...

    "A berserking Orc and a stealthy/smartass rogue make a very interesting pair."
     
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  17. Scruffy The janitor Patron

    Scruffy
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    Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
    it's "editing" in this thread's title btw

    yay, i contributed!
     
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  18. muds_animal_friend Arcane Patron

    muds_animal_friend
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    My highly anal, comma obsessed, proof-read of The Banner Saga. I'm working bitching about commas on the other two at the moment.
    Show Spoiler

    The Banner Saga is a planned episodic game with beautiful hand-drawn artwork. The game is heavily story driven with a nice smattering of choice & consequence and turn based combat.

    While the story is fairly linear, you will end up in the same place no matter what, 1. who is still alive when you get there will vary wildly from person to person. The Banner Saga is built on the concept of an apocalypse 2. and the developers had no problems 3. bringing the harsh choices such an event would bring. The game gives a good 4. frame work of the events and then allows the player to tailor how their individual journey plays out. Major plot points will be the same, but the pieces that will fill in the blanks will be customized 5., and are often memorable. The map is also crammed full of lore information for people who really want to dig into the world 6., without it being imposed on players who don’t.

    The story is told from the perspective of two different groups who 7. start on opposite ends of the country. The story jumps between 8. them and some people complain about issues following the plot, but if you can follow Game of Thrones 9., this shouldn't be an issue. 10. Since the world is ending, supplies are in short supply and required to keep your caravan from starving, which can result in NPCs leaving and morale plummeting, making battles more difficult. You can buy supplies with renown, gained from battles, but it is also needed to upgrade troops or buy items. You will not be swimming in renown, or supplies, so careful management of resources can make a big difference.

    The combat is turn based 11. and there’s a variety of classes with specialized skills creating opportunities for a 12. multitude of various tactics. You can also move 13. characters stat points around between 6 different attributes 14., allowing for true customization of roles and play style. For example, you can move points into a unit to make them a specialized armor breaker, or boost the number of times they can sprint/use their special ability. One of the attributes units have is called Will Power 15., which dictates a unit’s ability to go above and beyond their typical limits. These points can be spent on moving further than normal, 16. or to boost an attack and do not naturally refill. As you kill units, you begin to fill up your war horn. These charges can be expended to refill a unit’s Will Power and can provide the boost needed to push through a tough encounter. 17. How much Will Power a unit can use in one turn is determined by Exertion, so the mechanic generally prevents large one time boosts unless a unit is specifically built to fulfill that role.

    The unique mechanic that separates The Banner Saga’s combat from other games is the shared health/strength pool on units. Damaging an enemy reduces the damage they can do to you. However, outright killing a unit might not be in your best interest 18. since the game uses an “I go, you go system” 19., allowing for full strength units to act more quickly. Therefore, it can be valuable to leave heavily 20. damaged units alive, who do little damage, to prevent full strength units from getting more turns 21., quickly turning the tables against your army. All units also have an armor value which reduces incoming damage, as well as chance to be hit, so sometimes it’s better to knock this down before attempting to damage a unit. The only drawback of the combat system is the limited number of enemy types, many of which lack special abilities, which does erode the tactical depth from the AI a bit. Each member of your party can equip an item that will also influence approaches to battle. The size difference between the jarls and humans is also clearly evident in combat with the giants taking up sections of 2x2, making them useful for blocking approaches for enemies, especially larger ones.

    Despite these minor complaints, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and the base mechanics are in place and work fine. If the remaining episodes continue the 22. dark, but engrossing story, and Stoic builds on the foundations of the combat system 23., this series could easily turn into an epic masterpiece fans of story driven games won’t want to miss.

    1. Subject/object confusion “who”, “you” and “person to person”. I suggest changing “who” to “which characters” and “person to person” to “player to player”.

    2. Needs a comma before “and” because “the developers had...” is and independent clause.

    3. Verb repetition/confusion. I suggest “the developers had no problems presenting the harsh choices that such an event would entail“.

    4. Typo: “frame work” should be “framework”. Consider “Framework of events” rather than “framework of the events”.

    5. & 6. Redundant comma.

    7. “Start on” is temporal “start at” is positional. Should be “start at”.

    8. Slightly confusing (for me) pronoun usage with “them and some people” because I cants into redding. I suggest “jumps between the two groups and some people have issues...”.

    9. Redundant comma.

    10. Awkward noun and idiom pairing: “supplies are in short supply”. I suggest “supplies are limited”. Problematic comma usage/determiner placement. I suggest “Because the world is ending supplies are limited and required to prevent your caravan from starving, NPCs from leaving, morale plummeting, and battles becoming more difficult as a result.”

    11. Independent clause requires a comma here.

    12. Redundancy of adjectives. I suggest “creating opportunities for a variety of tactics”.

    13. Typo. Should be “character's”.

    14. & 15. Redundant comma.

    16. I suggest making “or to boost an attack” parenthetical to avoid subject-verb separation between “points” and “refill”: “normal, or to boost an attack, and”.

    17. Potential subject-object confusion. Exertion is the subject, Will Power is the object, and “the mechanic”, which references the subject, could be confused with the object.. I suggest active voice: “Exertion determines how much Will Power a unit can use in one turn preventing a large one time boost unless of unit is specifically built to fufill that role.”

    18. “Since” is temporal; “because” is preferable here.

    19. Redundant comma.

    20. The parenthetical clause should follow the noun it's describing. The phrase “who do little damage” is describing “heavily damaged units” so the fragment should read “... heavily damaged units, who do little damage, alive to prevent ...”

    21. Replace comma with “and”.

    22. The modified noun “story” is trapped in a parenthetical phrase and you, the adventurer, must reunite it with its true love “dark” like so: “dark, but engrossing, story”.

    23. Where's muh adverb? If … then: “If the remaining episodes ... then this series....”

     
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  19. Ninjerk Arcane

    Ninjerk
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    Can't edit for some reason
    Show Spoiler
    Purely from a writing standpoint, this is one of the most overlooked gems of the RPG genre. If you love story driven RPGs, I highly suggest considering this game. Tons of games talk about “Mature Themes," but this one really hits the nail on the head--not just with the adult language (which there’s a lot of, but it fits the game’s themes well). The story covers racism, slavery, political ambition, violence, and betrayal. This is not the clichéd story of a hero setting out to stop a great evil that threatens the world. The war between Orcs and Humans has been decidedly one-sided and, in a desperate bid to prevent the enslavement of all Orcs, an elite Orc military unit receives orders for a suicide mission: kill the Human emperor.

    The plot also contains a few unexpected and well developed twists, which turns the original plan into something much greater. I feel that both of the main characters are well-written and that it is interesting to see how their interactions with each other change as the story progresses. A berserking Orc and a stealthy, smartass rogue make for a very intersting duo.

    The developers have also done a good job connecting the characters' personalities to their fighting styles. In combat you can switch back and forth between characters at-will, but before it begins you have the opportunity to go into stealth with Styx, the Goblin, and attempt to sneak up behind an enemy for an assassination. The Orc, Arkail, is a great embodiment of the berserker type warrior, and not just in the writing. The combat system actually contains a rage meter that fills when he takes damage. Once full, he literally goes into an uncontrollable rage. It can turn the tide of a battle in your favor due to the damage boost, but can also cost you a battle thanks to the lack of defense and potential to KO the Goblin, making this unique mechanic both interesting and potentially frustrating. On the other hand, it fits the character profile perfectly.

    Sadly, the game is really linear and there is almost no exploration. The maps are very railroaded with minimal detours to occasionally find some loot. There are a handful of side quests, but they need to be done right then and there. And there’s pretty much no choice & consequence--the game is going to play out a certain way no matter what option you pick.

    Of Orcs and Men is definitely not for everyone, but if you enjoy story-driven RPGs there’s a very good chance you’ll find yourself sucked in wanting more of the amazing characters and world.


    Made corrections according to all criticisms. So are we nuking these things from orbit?

    EDIT: muds_animal_friend God bless your soul, that's the only other review I took a look at. I got to the sentence that starts, "While something something linear..." and started raging.
     
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  20. Servo Arcane

    Servo
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    Plz, this is hardly nuking. I could go to town on this writing so hard.

    Looks good btw. SHIP IT

    As for Banner Saga, you mean you were raging at the quality of the writing or the content?

    Edit: muds_animal_friend it would be much more iteration friendly if you would just edit the things instead of putting suggestions in footnotes.
     
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  21. Ninjerk Arcane

    Ninjerk
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    Quality of the writing of that sentence in particular. I assume the rest of the review read similarly. The use of "while..." indicates that he is going to point out an exception, but as I recall he reinforces the point and uses some really awkward comma splicing.

    BTW: SHIP IT felipepepe. The less time we have to look at individual reviews the better.
     
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  22. Jagged Appliance Arbiter

    Jagged Appliance
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    muds_animal_friend:

    For the first sentence of the second paragraph I suggest "Although the story is fairly linear and you will end up in the same place no matter what, which characters are still alive at that point will vary wildly from player to player." I hope that comma is correct :P
     
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  23. HiddenX The Elder Spy Patron

    HiddenX
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    Grunker - sometimes I think you want to understand me wrong. Banner saga combat is repetive. You have only a few different moves per class (like in chess) that lead unfortunately too much less interesting and less different combat situations.
    I WILL NOT edit any content. I'll submit my opinion in this thread for discussion only. The best thing would be to discuss the critique with the author himself.

    I will write a few reviews myself and I want critique from / discussions with others before I say to felipepepe the article is good for release.
     
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  24. Servo Arcane

    Servo
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    I think Grunker meant "combat is chess like and becomes repetitive" could be interpreted as "chess-like combat is inherently repetitive."

    I realize this is a weirdness in our language, but maybe if you don't pick up on such things you shouldn't edit them (not meaning to be rude).
     
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  25. HiddenX The Elder Spy Patron

    HiddenX
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    Maybe he could just asked me friendly how I meant it, instead of indirectly calling me content-police. :)

    I know the author Greywolf00 long enough from the Watch and we respect each others opinion.
    I encouraged him to write the review.
    -> All I want are fair reviews. I try to help with my knowledge about CRPGs. That's all, Servo.
     
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