Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by deuxhero, May 16, 2014.

  1. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Yes, level is very important. No, increasing the number of rolls is NOT a good thing. As this would mean that you need to beat an enemy Reistance (for example 80%.... or 99% in extreme cases) up to 4 times to capture the enemy!

    You want to be 10+ levels above the enemy to roll "only" twice...
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I think Don Mag was 80%? Or am I mismembering it?
    In general I also mostly went with "reasonable" odds. But did try some 80% to capture a Nue (really awesome Samurai), Tempest Efreet (neat Brawler with godly Status Resists) or Don Mag (really destructive mage with neat resists... meh).
    Eventually also captured Gaia, who basically carried me trough better half of the post game.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    I am wrapping up my Troubleshooter-playthrough and am considering if this breakage of my traditional NO WEEABOO ALLOWED-rules should result in me playing this in the last couple of vacation days.

    What's your basic newbie package here? What do I need to be aware off before venturing forth?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  4. Ventidius Savant

    Ventidius
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    497
    This little guide is useful enough to cover the barest basics: https://elminage-gothic.fandom.com/wiki/Inventory_Management

    It mentions the Underground Goblin Map, which I'd recommend you get as soon as you can. Random number of uses instead of unlimited, but it can be cheaply repaired. You can do that or cheat in order to activate unlimited map uses (depending on how comfortable you are with that, rushing the Goblin Map is a bit metagamey, FWIW). Unlimited map uses are not obligatory (and some people would argue it makes for a diluted experience), but the point is ultimately to have fun, so it's up to you.

    I wouldn't call the first dungeon well-designed, but it seems to be more of a filter than anything. I'd recommend enduring past it, as the game gets better. The Tree dungeon is the first 'serious' dungeon, but the game arguably doesn't really kick into gear until the Igdra Underground Church. The post-game is the real meat, however (especially Ibag Tower).

    Party-wise, multi-classing is very powerful, as it was in so many of the old Wizardry games. Collecting spellsets is useful. For example, a Lord naturally has access to Cleric spells, so creating him as an Alchemist before multiclassing and settling into Lord is a nifty trick (though he'll only have 3 spells from each rank from the previous class). Humans are great for multiclassing, for obvious reasons.

    The Wizard spell Diomente is a teleport spell, and very useful. It's one of the last spells learned by Wizards, but it's a good idea to rush it early on. Though later areas in the game have anti-teleport areas (along other nasty tricks).

    It's a good idea to have an Alchemist and a Bishop at all times, despite any apparent immediate drawbacks. Researching the EX Skills is also rewarding, some of them are strong like Magic Essence, which causes spells to ignore magic resistance.

    Summoners are fun and can make dealing with the difficulty curve easier, as you can capture/form pacts with strong monsters that can join your party and carry you for entire chunks of the game. Their mechanics are a bit involved, but it's worth looking into it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Thanks :salute: Though I'm unsure if I understood half your post beyond the Wizardry 8 words I recognized :D
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Ventidius Savant

    Ventidius
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    497
    EX Skills are new to Wizardry-likes and they are skills that you pick at creation. Some of them are useful to most classes, others are perfect complements to a specific class and not much else. That's why I recommended looking them up.

    What I referred to as 'ranks' is basically the Spell Level. There are 7 Spell Levels for each magic type. Alchemist, Wizard, and Cleric spell lines - what I referred to as 'spellsets' above - are quite different, but they all have their uses.

    Multiclassing is really more like class changing than Infinite Engine multiclassing. You can't have a character that is a Lord/Alchemist, but rather one that was first an Alchemist and then a Lord. You get to keep some spells.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    So dual classing? Got it. Does it work like AD&D dual classing - as in, you stop leveling in the class you switched from and from then on only level in the new class?
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Ventidius Savant

    Ventidius
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    497
    It mostly works exactly like dual classing, except you can do it more times. IIRC it's probably closer to Wizardry 7 where you could go through an absurd amount of classes. However, I don't really know the cap, since I rarely (if ever) changed classes more than twice. I dislike doing Wizardry 7-style merry-go-rounds, and I'd say it's a relief that this game doesn't really require it. You can use the feature exactly like BG dual classing and you wouldn't lose much of value.

    EDIT: Also, unlike dual classing, you can change into the equivalent of this game's 'kits', e.g. the advanced classes like Lord, Valkyrie, Samurai, etc.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    I generally really enjoy multiclassing but I do not enjoy the AD&D-style having to wait until your old classes become active again.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Ventidius Savant

    Ventidius
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    497
    IIRC, you won't ever get a previous class's skills back (like Thief utilities, for example). So it's not like dual classing in that sense. Perhaps someone who knows the system better can correct me on this, but I think that you only ever inherit spells, and you get those immediately (but with reduced uses). Class changing is mostly useful for HP gains (having a character be a Fighter first) and collecting spell lines. Having a full party of people that have access to at least two spell schools is very useful, both for combat and resource management/dungeon survival purposes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. TigerKnee Arcane

    TigerKnee
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,886
    Hasn't Jap Wizardry's class changing been unchanged since Wiz1?

    When you multiclass, you return to the minimum stats for the class (incentivizing changing to Advanced Classes, although you might as well create them on chargen so you can have better stats still unless you have other aims), and you keep nothing from the previous class except HP and spells.

    There are two caveats to inheriting those - first off, because of the way HP is calculated, don't think you can simply stack on a Fighter HP to a Mage for a massive end-game pool. You'll end up simply gaining 1 HP per level until you reach "Mage average HP", which is sort of similar to what happens to your HP in dual-classing but not quite.

    Second, your spellslots per spell level is capped to 3, so in terms of that you should just play the Hybrid class if it's a combo that's already possible.

    So I really wouldn't multi for HP because it's a pretty short term gain, but it can be very useful to add utility magic to several one-dimensional classes, such as Thief. It isn't remotely the "power-gaming" option IMO so don't feel compelled to do it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I agree with rushing the teleport spell - Diomente. With that in mind, I consider a mage almost obligatory in the "first revision" of the party - at least till level 13 - provided that he DOES learn Diomente at that level (its random whether the character will learn spells each level - and which).

    But I absolutely disagree about bringing the Bishop along. He levels SO slow and is generally mostly useless, that IMO its FAR better to have one character complete his basic training as a mage or cleric (reach minimum level 13), then level 13 in the other class and only then switch to Bishop. That will still cost HALF the xp needed for the Bishop to learn all spells. Optionally mix alchemist level 13 there as well (but make sure to finish with mage or cleric, as bishop will inherit ALL spellslots from mage/cleric - as opposed to 3 per level from other classes).
    Keep one in the tavern for basic item identification purposes. You can even raise him a few levels at the shrine/trainer if you feel like it/have the gold. But in general, bite the bullet and pay for identification of most valuable items. You won't earn much gold that way, but that's still vastly better then a useless party member IMO.

    Alchemist is a bit trickier. In general most parties want to have a high level alchemist for item enchanting purposes. And the value of high level enchants cannot be overstated (and they scale with alchemist level). So that's a strong argument to keep Alchemist as "main class". His spells are damn useful to. However IMO have some character train as alchemist early and multiclass him to some other caster, summoner or Hunter (exception in the rules! Hunter inherits all alchemist spellslots for some reason!). And later consider having another character finish his career as an alchemist.
    OR go my way: keep a dedicated alchemist on the tavern bench, pay for his level ups at the temple with all your spare gold and mostly substitute for the stronger bonuses he COULD provide to the party if he were a permanent member with unique features of captured monsters turned into devilish party members via spirit pact (why I mentioned "first revision" of the party).

    I've found it very fun to capture enemies with some extremely potent features and make them party members. With some caveats. Their class is preset and not really obvious. You shouldn't multiclass them or they will loose all their special features. Their EX skill is assigned randomly at creation, so if you want a specific one, you're gonna have to reload a bit.
    Red Cap, later Dragonfly ninja. Cyclops, later Tempest Efreet Brawler. Nue samurai. Plenty of other options too. But I loved those.
    So yeah, Summoner was one of my favorite characters. You should probably teach him some other spells first, I guess. But early enemies, like RedCaps, Dragonflies have low Summon resist and can be captured even by a greenhorn summoner (and you don't need spirit pact EX skill on your "main" summoner - its fine to have it on a "mule" - pact doesn't have to be made by character who captured the enemy).

    Some protips:
    1. Mostly avoid multiclassing martial characters. They benefit too much from growing AB AND "extra attacks" that brings (in practice damage just gets number of attack multipliers with each swing). Plus there's some nice "Innocent" equipment that can only be used by single class characters. And at level 26/30/32 (depending on class) characters learn "high mastery" abilities, which can be great AND most of them scales with level - another incentive to stay pure/main class. For example samurai gets increasing chance to "Swallow Return" riposte - negate enemy attack and counter (with both his swords). Valkyrie can equip offhand weapon/shield AFAIR. Summoners get blood pact and provide scaling - insane - boosts to stats of summoned monsters. Summoned Gaia with Summoner boosts carried me trough half of the final post game dungeon.
    2. In general classes which share spellbooks, inherit all spellslots when multiclassing (mage or cleric -> bishop, mage -> samurai/bard, cleric -> valkyrie/lord; also the mentioned alchemist -> hunter - although the latter doesn't normally have a spellbook). Other combos get 3 spellslots per learned spell level.
    3. I've found Valkyries the best class in general. Very good damage with reach weapons = annihilates enemy back row when in front (including casters which are sometimes hard to reach). Great utility with cleric spells too. Eventually gets to dual wield spears which is just absurd. Mine was a dwarf (good Wis for cleric spells, good Str), YMMV.
    4. Thief has low value IMO. You may still need one initially, but change him for a ninja ASAP. Ninja is worse at disarming - but with high Luck and Agility he'll do just fine (caveat - needs to earn/roll high stats first - and stats are minimal after multiclassing or making a spirit pact - there are good ninja candidates among monsters even fairly early; also a quest to find a sub-par neutral one early). And ninja 50% enemy ambush negation is just invaluable. No to mention his beheads.
    5. Brawlers make very good damage dealers. Post game they also have best AC (along with Ninjas). Early on their equipment is limited though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  
  13. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Awesome, Haplo, thx alot :love:
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. NoSoup4you Novice

    NoSoup4you
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    Messages:
    50
    Yeah, I made a town bishop for identifying, but he fails and gets fear status so often, I don't even wanna bother with his worthless ass. It's way more complicated to navigate to the cleric and cure him than it should be...
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Umm, rest in the inn instead? At least that's I think how I got rid of that. But yeah, as ID is equipment value and level-based too, eventually he WILL be worthless.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    My pleasure, Grunker :D

    Oh, and the previous advice about not getting disheartened by the first/first few dungeons is worth repeating.
    Overall, E:Gothic is pretty hardcore, but the first cave is just ridiculous/weak. And a few areas afterwards are nothing special too. Kinda... weird marketing-wise.
    I expect most players drop the game at this point.

    But eventually there's a really solid game underneath - if you're feeling masochistic and old-school, that is :P
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    23,165
    Location:
    Copenhagen
  18. Replicante Novice

    Replicante
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    I picked up the game recently. I got a lvl 10 werebeast Alchemist that I plan to multiclass to ranger. What level should be good for this? Should I wait until I get my 1st 7lvl spell? ty
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Matador Arcane

    Matador
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,020
    If I recall correctly, Rangers retain all the alchemy spell levels when class change to them. So I would wait until you have 9 casts in every alchemist spell. Any other class when you get 3 casts in every alchemy spell, because you can't retain more than that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Eh, while kinda valid, I'm not sure its worth to wait that long.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. gman42 Educated

    gman42
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    57
    Off the top of your head, are there any Innocent items that are just so good that it's almost a must to single-class to not waste it? Finally planning on taking this game up soon and wanted to do a little party planning first.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. Haplo Prophet Patron

    Haplo
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,170
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Don't remember, but I don't think many were "crutch".
    There was some nice cloak. There might have been a spear too, not sure.

    Thing is, when you consider action economy and the payoff of specialization on martial characters PLUS their High Mastery skills, IMO multi-classing them is a waste of time and actually weakens them in the long run. Of course, nothing wrong with going Alchemist->Hunter or some such.
     
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.