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Encounter design is king

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Zanzoken, May 10, 2016.

  1. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Yep, it's in ToB that everyone is potentially perma-hasted. Backtracking is trivialized by the increased movement speed, in general, and lack of narrow maze-like corridors in dungeon design, anyway.

    Yep, agree with your other reasons. I would just recommend DT to anyone who wants a good dungeon crawl, since it's a pretty extended segment and separated from the main campaign. It represents what I value most in RPGs, despite not being perfect.

    BG is LK's baby. He wrote most words you read, including Drizzt (ppl seem to think it was Salvatore). He played no small part in BG2, but there is no credited lead writer unless its Gaider. I know Gaider wrote Irenicus and LK wrote many of the companions (SoA Imoen is all LK, SoA Minsc), romances, epilogues, NPCs (e.g, Saemon). But yeah, the tone difference of the campaign, and its syntax, is pretty profound. Versatile writers, both of them.

    Thieves' Maze, Firewine Ruins and Catacombs are also superior to any dungeon in BG2 because they are meat-grinders. There are no meat-grinders in BG2.
     
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  2. Space Insect Arcane

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    While the Firewine ruins respawn machanic was pretty imaginative and worked well in a design standpoint, the narrow halls of both that and the Thieves' Maze did no favors to the pathfinding and are more or less filled with generic and not well designed encounters. I would definetely count the Firkraag dungeon and the de'Arnise Hold over those two any day. Those two featured much more varied encounters and much better design overall rather than just a maze-like layout.
     
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  3. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Wide corridors you can drive a truck through just don't do it for me: they lack claustrophobia, allow for kiting, and are unrealistic. As I said in my retrospective, I would rather wrestle with pathfinding issues than see shit like that.

    BG2 dungeons are too EZ to rest in, any on-rest spawns are trivial, there are no timed respawns at all, and trap density is non-existent. That is pathetic, to have no overall dungeon strategy. Nothing to watch out for. It's just micro fight-by-fight "tactics": three trolls here, two umber hulks here, three yuan-ti here, Oh! An otyugh in the courtyard!

    COLLECT DUH FLAYL HEADZ TO FORJ MUNCHKIN WEELD, DROP DUH DRAWBRIDGE, FEED DUH HULKZ DOGSTEW (to get the qst exp AND kill exp after!) It's fucking embarrassing; not to mention the false sense of urgency and insipid storyfag interjections by Nalia, and "Oh, we've plopped in three pathetic troll trashmobs - better put a stash at the front door filled with fire arrows!"

    I blush at how many ppl jump to the defense of BG2 over the original BG, when the latter is so obviously the more impressive achievement. They are on par with those who think Fallout 2 is greater than Fallout - THE GLOW - hello!? i.e, tasteless scrubs.
     
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  4. Wayward Son Fails to keep valuable team members alive

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    Why don't we just ask MicoSelva which one is more challenging and better designed? He'd be sure to know.
     
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  5. MicoSelva Prestigious Gentleman Don't call Abigail Patron

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    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Sorry, Wayward Son, I am not competent enough to discuss with an expert like Lilura, even if I wanted to.
     
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  6. Wayward Son Fails to keep valuable team members alive

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    Oh man.:cry:
     
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  7. Malpercio Arcane

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    Yeah, those low level dungeons filled with trash, boring mobs are truly something for the ages.

    I mean, can you believe people compare dungeons like SpellHold, with their unique design, puzzles, optional secrets with masterpieces like NASHKEL MINES!? Fucking crazy yo.
     
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  8. Lhynn Arcane

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    You do know you can edit your posts, dont you? no need to delete and repost. Been alerted like 3 times already. :M

    Guess ill dignify your post with an answer, yer trying hard enough to justify it.
    If you are going to criticize the exp values let me stop you right there. Theres a reason for the game to constantly throw experience at the player. 2nd edition had fucked up exp values, your supposedly main ways of gaining xp (treasures and magical items) wasnt there anymore, neither were the bonuses to xp per class (fighters got extra xp by killing, thiefs by stealing, etc). A third factor was that bioware wanted to tell a very high level story, involving almost every pre-epic monster on the book, and they had scrapped the interquel that would bridge the gap between BG1 and 2. This led to a situation where they HAD to give you overbloated quest XP to get you to be able to tackle those pre-epic monsters, because there simply wasnt enough content to distribute it sensibly, and because even if there were, it simply wouldnt have been up to par. Its retarded to fault them for this. Yes, its not equivalent to PnP pacing, but games dont have unlimited stories to tell to allow you to get where they want you to be, so compromises must be made. We saw this in VtMB as well.
    I found the fight against the golems at arnise to be fairly difficult for the level you could go at, so was the final fight against the troll the first time i went. As for an overall strategy, what were you expecting? traps? organization? trolls dont do that, you were attacking an already taken castle full of monsters, and small groups of evil monsters torturing people or doing fuck all is par for the course given the situation.
    Nalias interjections were p. optional, just dont take the insufferable little cunt, i didnt.
    Them putting fire arrows makes sense in a game where you simply couldnt use a torch to light them on fire. Its a stupid complain, nitpicky as hell and goes to show how little valid criticism you are able to raise.
    False sense of urgency is a genre wide problem, i will not let you use it against a game this old. Fucking retarded to even bring it up. Also any game with real urgency in the plot (Like MotB) will automatically get less sales and be criticized for it. No matter how good the system is, its simply something most players dislike. I love it, i loved that mechanic in MotB, i loved it in Mount and Blade, but i cant fault a game for not having it, unless it really tries to test my patience. As i said, nitpicky as hell, and also misguided.

    BG2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better. Better encounter design, more interesting abilities, a more rich world, better itemization, expanded character system that was fun to play around with, slightly more interesting character building, Better magic (comes with the levels, but meh), better characterization. Sure, BG1 was good, but BG2 learned a lot from BG1 and ended up being a much more focused, much more interesting experience. About the only things BG1 is better than BG2 in is sensible XP values(Compared to PnP, tho it was heavily criticized because of the extremely slow pace of character progression. I didnt midn tho), sensible magical item distribution(compared to PnP), a more adventury D&D kind of feel, better, more subtle, writing and no aerie.
    As for the challenge, both games are easy as fuck if you know what you are doing, almost impossible to beat if you dont. Fucking deal with it. Cant fault a game about mastering the system to be easy when you master the system (add to that your own meta knowledge that makes all remaining challenge go away). This is an RPG, its about testing your critical judgement and ability to make choices, if you make all the right ones its supposed to be easy.
     
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  9. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Unique puzzles/riddles? Most of that shit's recycled, and the riddles are direct rips from The Hobbit, with the wording slightly altered. Proof:

    I could quote more, but that's enough for a faggot like you.

    Unique design? It's like a massively dumbed down Durlag's Tower. It even recycled the wall trap from Durlag's Tower.
    Optional secrets? Tell me more about the mithril tokens and the munchkin rewards.

    Do you know what a trashmob is? It's something not worth swinging a sword or casting a spell at.

    Considering the party level is about 2-3 when you head into the Nashkel Mines, the kobolds and kobold commandos are hardly trashmobs.
    How are the mustard jellies and skeleton warriors trashmobs in the Thieves' Maze?
    How are respawning kobold commandos trashmobs in the Firewine Ruins?
    How are greater doppelgangers, phase spiders, basilisks and ghasts trashmobs in the Candlekeep Catabombs?

    All of these segments are littered with proximity traps and are not EZ to backtrack out of once delved, due to their maze like design. The Catacombs is cut off from the main campaign, like Spellhold, but itemization is stingier and on-rest spawns are high %. There are more traps in CC than in SH, too.
     
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  10. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Not sure what called for that digression, because I wasn't criticizing the experience point rewards, but rather the insipidity of that option and poking fun at BioWare's idiotic design that lets you have your cake and eat it, too.

    Yuan-ti are masters of traps. Haven't you played IWD? Anyway, my criticism is valid campaign-wide, with maybe one or two exceptions. There is no trap density in BG2 that rivals BG. Hence, thieves are devalued.

    Aganazzar's Scorcher, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, Fireball? Who doesn't have a mage with two or three of these in their spellbook. One of them is itemized in the early dungeon, too. Then you have infinite Fire Arrows from the Captain, just outside - and it's EZ to leave whenever you like.

    Fallout is a better example because it's older than even BG1.

    Right back at'cha. BG is ten times the achievement of BG2. All BG2 did was take its templates and expand and extend them, to little objective benefit, just like Fallout 2. Only storyfags disagree, and no one takes them srsly.

    I never argued this.
     
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  11. Malpercio Arcane

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    Yes, there is only one puzzle/riddle in all of BG2. You are a damn moron, I was speaking in general. BG2 is littered with sequences in which you have to stop and think for a second what you are doing, be it in the Sewer of Ahtkala for the Sun ritual, or Umar Hill for the correct way across the lava or what the fuck. And spellhold riddle were pretty fun for what they were, not every game has to be Silent Hill 3 hard mode puzzle.


    Edgy. Now show me on this Viconia's doll where BG2 touched you.

    Oh noes! A TRAP WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE.

    You know what we have seen before? Low-level boring ass fantasy, which basically describes BG1.

    No one needs Boots of Speed or a Bag of Holding! (among other things)

    Nashkel mines are literally littered with those mobs, by the time I was at the end I was fucking auto-pillot them. At least I think they were kobold. I'm not even sure because BG1 encounter design was so shitty that most mobs felt the Same, unless you were unlucky and OH NOES, UNDEAD or OH NOES, HIGH LEVEL WOLVES AMBUSH.

    I don't know, how is a tightly designed dungeon with traps, puzzles, nice rewards, various encounters of all kind like vampires with level drain, beholders, elementals, golem, Irenicunt bad???

    Maybe they should have filled with it with Kobolds (hey, there was a room with Kobold in Spelldhold! I bet you like that), then it would have been the best dungeon ever!
     
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  12. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Here is how to write riddles. Show me anything in BG2 comparable to these:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Each of my responses, in blue, is chosen from a pool of six options (not shown).

    I'm not gonna stoop to responding to the rest of your shitpost; you will be on ignore soon, anyway.
     
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  13. Malpercio Arcane

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    I'm happy there is a good puzzle in BG1. This doesn't make BG1 dungeons and environments design less shitty, or BG2 less good, though.

    :love:
     
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  14. SwiftCrack Arcane

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    DT probably *IS* the best designed part of the entire BG saga though.
     
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  15. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I have it on good authority that you only need a Wand of Sleep for them.
     
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  16. Krash Prophet

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    Ignoring or even threatening to ignore someone for disagreeing with you is pretty damn shameful, just fyi.
     
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  17. Wayward Son Fails to keep valuable team members alive

    Wayward Son
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    ^summer, please ban.
    Show Spoiler

    :troll:
     
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  18. Lhynn Arcane

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    Wat? As if there were no exploits in any game ever. Nipicky as fuck.

    I remember plenty of traps in BG2, but even if you had a trap every couple feet even on populated areas. Yer level 10. Unless it outright kills you its nothing more than a very minor speed bump.

    So whats your point, that because you already have 2 sources of fire you cant have a third one? Maybe you dont have a mage, maybe you are soloing a fighter type, who knows, why is this even a thing? How is this even relevant?

    Sure, but fallout still had events that wouldnt evolve no matter how much you waited. You could wait a couple months before saving killian if you wanted to. It just strikes at you grasping for anything at this point.

    Hah, combat is much better on BG2, everything else is p. much the same. Exploration was bad in BG1 and they got rid of it in 2, so i really dont see why you would think 1 is better than 2. Unless you didnt care about the story, but if thats the case you could have done a lot better than BG1, easily.

    No, yet you keep pointing your finger at BG2 being super easy when BG1 is just as easy and you keep defending that one. Its really stupid nitpicky shit like this that gets me. If you were pointing out clear flaws that really made the experience worse then i would concede, but you saying that "well the game is bad because you happen to find a stack of arrows at a high defensible place and i dont believe it should be there" then its really hard to take you seriously.
     
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  19. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

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    There is no point in arguing with Lilura. She is 100% convinced of her own intellectual superiority and will not back down. It's futile. She will just keep moving the goal posts over and over. She comes off very bitter from just the mere mention of BG2, and her reasons for hating it are beyond fucking asinine. She/he needs to get laid badly. Just nod your head at her and move on with your life. Retards like her are just not worth your time.

    Anyways, this thread was ended on the first page by Telengard imo. Time to put this thing to bed. And lol she put me on her ignore list.
     
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