Encounter design is king

[Lilura]

Age of Decadence has one of the best encounter designs in any RPG I know and it's certainly better combat-wise than Underrail. Almost all fights are challenging and are interestingly set up. In AoD you have 8 pure combat skills and each one makes your run different (playing as a spearman and playing as an axeman is quite different, it requires using different tactics and you get unique attack types, the same goes for a bowman/crossbowman and a throwing master). Also, there are always opponents that force you to change your tactics, e.g. if you fight Mack The Knife it's better to use a lighter weapon because even though your hits won't be as devastating you will make more damage due to higher chance of hitting a dodge master.
In UR you can use the same tactic for every opponent, there is no one that will force you to do things differently. The very first build I made was a gunslinger and I played a bit with it during EA. I knew what my mistake was when making this build so I took it into account and created my 2nd build once the game was released in 1.0 state and what do you know, every single encounter looked basically the same. And somewhere in the middle of the game I could one-shot any opponent (and I didn't even know that sniper would be so powerful). It's similar with other builds.

What's more in AoD the initiative, your positioning and the sequence of your actions matters more than in UR. Often moving away is the most optimal move because it's a proper turn-based game and the sequence of your actions do matter. Let's check this fight for example: http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/28482212341397668/EF4B7336AD21FCFA4B24174AD42449CF2C8EEA40/
Firstly, it matters who you kill first. Killing the wrong guy might make it easier for others to flank you (plus you can lose more HP because you left someone with high THC and damage per turn alive). Secondly, it matters what initiative your opponents have and in the case of the screenshot above if I go to the right square I can get rid of one opponent for a while because he has to take the long way since his comrades who had higher initiative blocked him passage so they could attack me. No such thing in UR. Sure, there are opponents that you should get rid off first (e.g. a sniper that can one-shot you or a psi-master that can make you think you're a vegetable) but these things aren't as important as in AoD.

Furthermore in UR there are way too many trashmobs or very annoying set-ups that aren't challenging but are tedious. Also, what's the point of having many different builds available if in the end every encounter looks basically the same? Every build is using traps, grenades and energy shield (if you don't you're either stupid or you want the challenge), these things make everything much much easier and you can use them at ANY level. Alchemy, crafting and nets/bolas make fights easier in AoD too but not every build can use them to their advantage due to limited amount of skill points (and in the case of alchemy, bolas and nets limited amount of them). In UR you can spam your enemy with traps and watch how retarded the AI is. But the thing that makes AoD much more enjoyable to me is that they're dynamic and fast contrary to UR ones where everything is in slow motion.

Good encounter design force the player to change tactics from time to time. Not every single fights NEEDS to be unique or clever but the designers should think the most obvious tactics the player will use and throw something that disrupt that at frequent intervals: (...)

And this is where Underrail fails. It has still better combat than most RPGsbut not as good as AoD.

Gah, if what you say is true I will never play Underrail. I'm not sold on AoD, either. Does it have strict resource management and rest restrictions; f.e:

How hard is it to heal after a fight?
How hard is it to amass wealth and splurge on vendor items?
How necessary is the use of consumables?
How EZ is it to just walk out of a dungeon midway through, and restock?

I compare everything to Swordflight because it holds to its restrictions, campaign-wide. Oh, and it's free (assuming one already owns NWN).

 

[Goral]

Lilura
Just try demos yourself (for AoD it's available on Steam only AFAIK), you might have different impression than me. As for your questions regarding AoD:

1) Healing is easy, you either go to a healer or use a healing salve (can't be used during combat). You can't always go to a healer though (for obvious reasons). And the higher your alchemy skill the better healing salve you can make. There are also other ways to heal if your Lore is high enough.
2) Amassing wealth is easy if you're a fighter and harder if you're not (as a merchant you get quite a few coins though), although everything depends on your build (some useful items can be expensive).
3) Using consumables is not necessary but it does make things easier.
4) It depends on what location you're in. There are some locations where going in is easy but getting out is not but for the most part you can go back and restock/heal. There are sometimes consequences for that though, e.g. a camp might become harder to get into if you won't deal the finishing blow during your first escapade.

For UR:
1) Very easy, there are stimpack equivalents here and doctors and you can use them even during the fights.
2) Also easy but it requires going back and forth many, many times which is very annoying.
3) More important than in AoD I would say.
4) You can always go back (with maybe one or two exceptions) with no consequences.

 

[Wayward Son]

What - in your mind - makes an RPG?

What makes you a troll?

BTW, great thread besides when it was derailed.

 

[orcinator]

Like I said, I don't think it's the encounter that is bad

And I don't think you should be posting in an encounter design thread when you find battles where you watch the AI fight each other for >90% of it to be acceptable. Especially when the only positive thing you said about it (how it ties into not being a special snowflake, when the game most definitely lets you become one, even in that very battle if the RNG decides to kill all the romans and you have an optimized enough build) doesn't even apply.

 

[Abu Antar]

Encounter design is the most important aspect of combat. Not how you gain exp, skills, abilities or whatever. They matter, but they are only there to further improve upon your design. I will always consider games that I personally think have better encounter design to be more fun to fight in even if they don't always have my favorite rule set or whatnot.

I don't think the average player really thinks about actual encounter design, though.

 

[Lilura]

Lilura
Just try demos yourself (for AoD it's available on Steam only AFAIK), you might have different impression than me. As for your questions regarding AoD:

1) Healing is easy, you either go to a healer or use a healing salve (can't be used during combat). You can't always go to a healer though (for obvious reasons). And the higher your alchemy skill the better healing salve you can make. There are also other ways to heal if your Lore is high enough.
2) Amassing wealth is easy if you're a fighter and harder if you're not (as a merchant you get quite a few coins though), although everything depends on your build (some useful items can be expensive).
3) Using consumables is not necessary but it does make things easier.
4) It depends on what location you're in. There are some locations where going in is easy but getting out is not but for the most part you can go back and restock/heal. There are sometimes consequences for that though, e.g. a camp might become harder to get into if you won't deal the finishing blow during your first escapade.

Points one, two and three concern me in regards to AoD. Healing and wealth accumulation should be very hard regardless of build; and there is no point having consumables like potions and scrolls if the player is not made dead meat by their refusal to use them. I tried a demo years ago: got bored, didn't like the perspective, uninstalled. It DOES sound decent, now, but I doubt it's on par with Swordflight; which, while only two chapters, atm - the second chapter is large enough to be a campaign in itself, the third is coming late June, and the author projects six chapters, all told. Plus, it's D&D 3.x ruleset in the greatest role-playing engine ever made (Aurora).

Anyway, I'm pretty much over RPGs where the devs don't have the spine to DM and enforce against lazy, cheesy and otherwise decadent players.

For UR:
1) Very easy, there are stimpack equivalents here and doctors and you can use them even during the fights.
2) Also easy but it requires going back and forth many, many times which is very annoying.
3) More important than in AoD I would say.
4) You can always go back (with maybe one or two exceptions) with no consequences.

Point three aside, it sounds like the Codex has overrated Underrail.

 

[Lhynn]

Point three aside, it sounds like the Codex has overrated Underrail.

Every question you asked has the same answer in the case of fallout.

 

[Serious_Business]

Agreed - diversity is the key. My brain is rotting on Dark Souls 3 right now, and the main reason I cannot get tired of this fucking thing is what I see as great encounter design. Every enemy is unique and forces you to adapt to their pattern. Not to mention, their aesthestics are also pretty good : I can't think of any game that does monsters this well. I can't get over the long-haired vagina monsters in the sewers, they remember me of my sex life, nightmarish stuff. The monsters in themselves aren't so tough, but getting wailed on in the mud by these things is quite the experience. Makes me limp just thinking about it, and you know how much I like being limp.

 

[Wayward Son]

Agreed - diversity is the key. My brain is rotting on Dark Souls 3 right now, and the main reason I cannot get tired of this fucking thing is what I see as great encounter design. Every enemy is unique and forces you to adapt to their pattern. Not to mention, their aesthestics are also pretty good : I can't think of any game that does monsters this well. I can't get over the long-haired vagina monsters in the sewers, they remember me of my sex life, nightmarish stuff. The monsters in themselves aren't so tough, but getting wailed on in the mud by these things is quite the experience. Makes me limp just thinking about it, and you know how much I like being limp.

If giant sewer vaginas remind you of your sex life, you need to get a new girlfriend. Also, giggity.

 

[Serious_Business]

If giant sewer vaginas remind you of your sex life, you need to get a new girlfriend. Also, giggity.

Stick to the subject asshole, we're not here to have fun

 

[Wayward Son]

If giant sewer vaginas remind you of your sex life, you need to get a new girlfriend. Also, giggity.

Stick to the subject asshole, we're not here to have fun

Sorry, that was my teenage impulses speaking. All in all, I agree with the point of your previous post, not specifically in Dark Souls as I haven't played them yet, but the general idea.

 

[Lilura]

Point three aside, it sounds like the Codex has overrated Underrail.

Every question you asked has the same answer in the case of fallout.

Fuck, you're an idiot sometimes... No shit, Fallout fails in these respects as well. Practically every RPG does.

 

[Lilura]

My brain is rotting on Dark Souls 3 right now, and the main reason I cannot get tired of this fucking thing is what I see as great encounter design.

This is true since Demon Souls, yeah. But still, it's a popamole.

What do ppl think of SitS' encounter design? And are there rest restrictions and resource management, or is it just another faceroll?

 

[Lhynn]

Fuck, you're an idiot sometimes... No shit, Fallout fails in these respects as well. Practically every RPG does.

So how are these aspects relevant? Your questions are all wrong.
Listen, underrail is a combat based game. It has great a combat and character system and an interesting world to explore. The reactivity is not nearly as good as fallouts one but its there. Its an ambitious game and very fun for what it is.
If you like single character turn based combat, you really cant do any better. If not, then its not for you.

 

[Lilura]

So how are these aspects relevant? Your questions are all wrong.

You want me to return to base one because you are too lazy to read the thread? Ok, they are relevant to ppl who value not just tactical combat, but an overall dungeon strategy.

I recall that SoZ restricts resting in its dungeons, too... problem is, they are so small and EZ to stroll out of to set up camp on the overworld.

 

[Lhynn]

You want me to return to base one because you are too lazy to read the thread? Ok, they are relevant to ppl who value not just tactical combat, but an overall dungeon strategy.

You are asking if the game has specific features that no other game seems to have, then saying it sucks for those reasons. Its really strange.
Theres no fast travel and the game features a sound propagation system, plus some enemies patrol. So if you get in too deep, get lost and dont have enough supplies, you may run into a close to unwinnable scenario. Some of the cuckdexers here have been stupid enough to manage just that.
It does feature plenty of quality encounter design.

I recall that SoZ restricts resting in its dungeons, too... problem is, they are so small and EZ to stroll out of to set up camp on the overworld.

SoZ wasnt hard enough to even make you care, and there were no consequences for backtracking.

 

[Lilura]

You are asking if the game has specific features that no other game seems to have, then saying it sucks for those reasons. Its really strange.

I tire of your banal, shoulder-shrugging responses, but it's fine by me if you wanna stay in that state and keep holding BG2 up as some kind of exemplar, which it isn't with regard to anything.

SoZ wasnt hard enough to even make you care, and there were no consequences for backtracking.

Yeah, it's about on par with the IE RPGs in that respect; i.e, a thoughtless doddle (Durlag's Tower being the only exception).

 

[Lhynn]

holding BG2 up as some kind of exemplar.

It is when it comes to encounter design, high level D&D combat (and just combat), itemization and consistent quality content. Its also a fairly decent piece of fantasy writing for teenagers.
You may be fine pretending the standard of the industry is so high it allows you to set new rules and expectations for games released today. I live in the real world and at most i expect games to excels at something at the cost of something else.

 

[Lilura]

It is when it comes to encounter design, high level D&D combat (and just combat), itemization and consistent quality content.

An exemplar is a perfect example or model, one to be imitated.

Encounter design: It's unfortunate that most of it is ruined by non-existent rest restrictions, non-existent resource management, OP kits and OP itemization.

Itemization: An unlikely-to-be-missed ring that sets your Charisma to 18 at the beginning of Chapter One; the Robe of Vecna, Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, Bracers of Defense AC 3, Shield of Balduran and Girdle of Hill Giant Strength purchasable early in the campaign from the Adventurer's Mart; weapons like the Flail of Ages and Celestial Fury that ignore enemy saving throws and spell resistance (they are slowed and stunned no matter what); Carsomyr and Crom Faeyr -- and that's just a few examples from Shadows of Amn. Throne of Bhaal goes full retard. In fact, BG2's itemization is so grotesquely generous, it can carry a solo Fighter/Mage to the Throne at 161,000 Exp points (i.e, without leveling up after TotSC).

High Level D&D combat: Throne of Bhaal and its HLAs?

Consistent quality of content: The campaign falls apart after Athkatla. It never recovers, and devolves further in ToB.

None of that stuff is to be imitated.

You may be fine pretending the standard of the industry is so high it allows you to set new rules and expectations for games released today.

I'm doing nothing of the sort; these are just MY expectations, which are realistic (it's been done). That's why I asked a few lil' Qs about AoD, SitS and UR: to see if they are right for me, to see if I should make the purchases an invest lots of time in them, and maybe do write-ups for them. I'm not sure why that offends you to the point of pulling things out of your ass about me ("pretending", "not living in the real world").

i expect games to excels at something at the cost of something else.

That's fine, but these things are important to me. I don't wanna play any more RPGs of this kind that don't uphold such things on a fundamental level. Again, sorry if that offends you.

 

[octavius]

As long as a game's flaws can be fixed with mods the flaws are mostly academic. For me at least...
Using mods, and even self imposed rules, is more productive than either not playing the game at all, or going on and on about the flaws.

 

[Lilura]

As long as a game's flaws can be fixed with mods the flaws are mostly academic. For me at least... Using mods, and even self imposed rules, is more productive than either not playing the game at all, or going on and on about the flaws.

I think it's productive to criticize RPGs, even the beloved ones; I mean, isn't this the Codex, where some ppl go as far to say that "everything is shit"? Didn't the Codex have a whole topic shitting all over Fallout, one that didn't even go retardoland?

SCS is flawed because it only deals in AI and doesn't fix the fundamental issues that make BG2 a doddle. Worst of all, there is no SCS for BG: you have to run Tutu, BGT or EE to receive its benefits (DavidW refuses to learn BG because he started with BG2, and "that's that"). And, as we all know, the BG2 engine fucks up the deadly waylays, timed spawns, and myriad other things that make BG more difficult than BG2.

Self-imposed rules as regards resting doesn't cut the mustard for me, for the reason I gave earlier.

 

[octavius]

Well, the BG games aren't that hard to mod yourself. I even modded parts of it myself, although not enough to make it a bona fide mod that I would upload.

 

[Lhynn]

An exemplar is a perfect example or model, one to be imitated.

And no one has managed to do get to BG2 level, and you demand more?

Encounter design: It's unfortunate that most of it is ruined by non-existent rest restrictions, non-existent resource management, OP kits and OP itemization.

If you think BG2 is an easy game you are delusional. It isnt exactly a very hard game but its hard enough to warrant a somewhat high skill floor. No average rpg gamer nowadays could hope to beat it without troubles. This before taking into account tactics mod.

Itemization: An unlikely-to-be-missed ring that sets your Charisma to 18 at the beginning of Chapter One;

They really went off the deep end with that one, whole game became easy after setting my CHA to 18.

the Robe of Vecna, Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, Bracers of Defense AC 3, Shield of Balduran and Girdle of Hill Giant Strength purchasable early in the campaign from the Adventurer's Mart; weapons like the Flail of Ages and Celestial Fury that ignore enemy saving throws and spell resistance (they are slowed and stunned no matter what); Carsomyr and Crom Faeyr -- and that's just a few examples from Shadows of Amn. Throne of Bhaal goes full retard. In fact, BG2's itemization is so grotesquely generous, it can carry a solo Fighter/Mage to the Throne at 161,000 Exp points (i.e, without leveling up after TotSC).

I dont see a problem with this, not only do you need different classes and and specializations to take advantajes of them, but they are gamechangers, which automatically makes them a thousand times better than anything nowadays. Jesus fuck, the fact that you can name them from memory and that i actually remember what they are and where you get them makes BG2 itemization p. legendarily good.

High Level D&D combat: Throne of Bhaal and its HLAs?

They were p. fun to use, and kept non casters on the level, instead of merely increasing 3 hp per level.

Consistent quality of content: The campaign falls apart after Athkatla. It never recovers, and devolves further in ToB.

This is nonsense, underdark is great, elven city is fairly good, and abyss trials is interesting. And then theres ToB, which is basically a gauntlet full of high level enemies and challenges to kill stuff, and it works as that. If you were expecting highly innovative gameplay and tons of optional content, then you didnt understand how expacs worked on the 90s/2000s. I had a blast beating the other bhaalspawns and found it fairly challenging, cant think of a bhaalspawn fight i didnt have to redo other than the first one. Sure, with full knowledge of every class, item and tactic the game is a cake walk, but so is every other rpg on existence, that or they are far too restrictive and not enjoyable to me.

None of that stuff is to be imitated.

Sure it is, expansions giving you more gameplay and little else is whats expected, and most DLCs nowadays cant even manage that.

I'm doing nothing of the sort; these are just MY expectations, which are realistic (it's been done). That's why I asked a few lil' Qs about AoD, SitS and UR: to see if they are right for me, to see if I should make the purchases an invest lots of time in them, and maybe do write-ups for them. I'm not sure why that offends you to the point of pulling things out of your ass about me ("pretending", "not living in the real world").

Do play AoD if you like reactivity and CYOAs, do play underrail if you like turn based combat and char building, do play SitS for its uniqueness in setting, character system and overall gameplay. Before spending money get a demo, if you want. I own all 3 and dont regret getting them. And the only thing that bothered me is that you asked for 4 arbitrary things that no RPG has and immediately discarded one of them when it didnt fulfill them. Like what? how does that even make sense?
Do try battle brothers tho, its actually better than AoD, SitS and underrail at this point.

That's fine, but these things are important to me.

And i respect that, more than you know.

I don't wanna play any more RPGs of this kind that don't uphold such things on a fundamental level.

Then you probably should quit the genre. As of right now the only game i can think of that could satisfy you is copper dreams, and at this point its little more than an idea.

Again, sorry if that offends you.

It doesnt, just trying to keep it real.

 

[octavius]

IMO BG2 did deteriate quite a bit after Athkatla, especially if you used an umodded version of the Shield of Balduran, which makes the Beholder lair a cake walk.

 

[Lhynn]

IMO BG2 did deteriate quite a bit after Athkatla, especially if you used an umodded version of the Shield of Balduran, which makes the Beholder lair a cake walk.

Oh boy, you never used the cloak of mirroring against them? its p. hilarious.
Anyway, there was still a lot of challenge, illithid lair for example.

Any RPG is a series of choices, make enough correct ones and theres a snowball effect. Same if you make enough bad ones. Its just how RPG works, the only answes to this come from either having someone tailor making encounters for your party (a DM) or level scaling shit that makes all your past choices moot, which is awful.

I do not see this as a problem, just a characteristic of the genre.