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Encounter design is king

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Zanzoken, May 10, 2016.

  1. Lhynn Arcane

    Lhynn
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    Lurker king is a sawyertard, he wouldnt recognize good rpg design if it hit him in the face like a brick. New generation of clueless bastards that ruin the genre with misguided notions. Would tell him to lurk more, but hes not a learning animal, so there would be no point.
     
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  2. Space Insect Arcane

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    So what would you say are cheese tactics if using stuff before an enemy spawns to instakill it is okay? You might as well just ctrl-y it at that point.
     
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  3. ZagorTeNej Arcane

    ZagorTeNej
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    If a legendary item isn't powerful then why should it be considered legendary in the first place? History and weapon art have to go hand in hand with effectiveness in battle. Having such items be rare, very expensive and/or having tough obstacles to get them is one thing but you neuter them too much and they become indistinguishable from junk some street vendor sells. How much could you nerf Crom Faeyr and still make it worth the trouble of collecting (and giving up) 3 powerful items needed to create it? Not to mention that the first time player is very likely to miss out on it in the first place.

    And let's be honest here, AoD has quite a few game changers as well that can absolutely decimate almost any opposition such as Power Armor (can switch between different stat bonuses and combat regeneration), Crafting (powerful gear, sharpening stones and many checks throughout the game) and Alchemy (that can easily turn Joe Average into an Arena Champion with some Poison and Bombs).
     
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  4. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    Well, yes, sleeping after every fight and using traps when enemies don't agro is to take advantage of design flaws so, yes, cheese tactics, if the engine supports or not it is not important. You can play Thief kocking out the entire level or exploit the shitty ai of hitman to make a trap and a plie of bodies, all games have exploits that make them ultra easy. About Lilarcor, it isn't overpowered, immunity to charm and confusion is useful but most of the time the enemies that use those types of effects are mages and Lilarcor only protects one dude and there 5 other dudes to be charmed and confused. I would argue that the ring of free action is much more powerful than it.
     
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  5. Lurker King Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    octavius My point is that meele fighters are gods of destruction in BG2, well, now that I’m thinking about it mages are also gods of destruction, but never mind that… what I’m saying is that the only thing that is effective against them is mental domination spells. That It’s way Lilarcor is so overpowered. You get the item very early on. It's +3! Never mind that.

    ZagorTeNej The difference between AoD super items and BG2 items is that the first one don’t make you invincible. The power armor requires a lot of tubes to activate and lore to unlock its final stage. It has lower than DR than most heavy armors. You still can be hit a lot. It has a shield you can’t remove, so you can’t use a dodger with a two handed weapon. These are all disadvantages. Craftings and stuff is all very nice, but they don’t make you immortal.
     
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  6. Lhynn Arcane

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    Its shit, never saw the need to use of it. Very few enemies used domination spells, and it was seldom a problem unless you failed the ST, which was already very low at those levels. To use it effectively you needed proficiency with the weapon, and it only protected 1 member of your party.

    No item in BG2 makes you immortal. Most enemies could still easily kill you even with all the shinny shit you got.
     
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  7. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    So what if the weapons and magic were overpowered? WTF is the point of these discussions? Why is this guy trying to compare AoD with a game that was made 20 years ago? BG2 was great fun from beginning to end, sure it has it's problems like most games, but what other CRPG's that were released in the past 20 years even compare's to the size, scope and content that BG2 provided?

    I'm fucking sick and tired of this word 'Balance' being discussed in games these days, yes it has it's place in multiplayer games, but keep your godamn 'balance' bullshit out of my single player games.

    "Yea bruh, the game is so sick, but it's not balanced so it's shit"
     
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  8. Thal Augur

    Thal
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    I'd also like to add that you have to work for the really good stuff.

    Crom Faeyr and Silver Sword cannot be gained until you come back from Underdark. So for 85% the game you didn't have these OP items.. The rest is ok. Lirarcor OP? Hardly. It's a +3 Two Handed Sword that saves you one Chaotic Commands. It's a solid sword and one tactical tool for you to consider when you're facing Umber Hulks. But it doesn't stop Mincs from getting killed by one Sunfire.
    Carsomyr is ridiculously powerful, namely because of the dispel magic power, but only two NPCs can wield it: Keldorn, who's the weakest melee fighter out of all NPCs and Paladin Charname, which is not an OP class by any means.
    You also have to kill a dragon for it.

    I'll concede Celestial Brand, you get it too early. And some of the Bonus Merchant Items. Namely Vhailor's helm that allows you to cheese with quick slots. However, only Fighter/Mages and Fighter/Mage/Thiefs can take full advantage of it.

    However, what people fail to understand is that you're not expected to find all of the good stuff unless you scrounge every nook and cranny or read the walkthroughs. To get Crom Faeyr, you have to remember that one secret door in the sewers that you couldn't open after you get the key from Tazok. You also have to give up 2 strength items to get it (need to find them too), which weakens two of your party members. How many of you did get that on your first playthrough or for that matter knew how to game the system completely? Most likely you found couple of the good items early, which boosted some of your NPCS. Now, after 15 years you also have to expect that the game has become somewhat easier.

    Also this:
    It's pretty amazing how well the game stilll holds up today. You still can't play on autopilot. Even if you have all the best stuff, the best party combination and have tuned your Charname to godhood, you can still be stomped by Mages, Mind Flayers or Beholders unless you're paying attention.
    The rest mechanics make the game easier that's for sure. However, even if you have a full spellbook, only the first couple spells in an encounter really matter. By the time you're done casting them, the encounter is mostly over.
    Personally, I don't rest spam because the ambushes are annoying. So for me they work as an excellent deterrent, even if the restriction could be overcome by reloading.
     
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  9. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Lilarcor can be very useful on a non Rage-enabled CHARNAME, especially if you play Iron Man, but that's about it.
     
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  10. Lurker King Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    I don't know, probably due to the same reason we have this fucking thread. To discuss the adequacy of game design we have to compare cRPGs, you dumbfuck. I'm sorry to break it to you, but your point of view is not sacrosanct. Never mind AoD. We have other games that also to this well, like Battle Brothers and JA2.

    Let's call things by their right name, shall we? The balance that it is important it is precisely the opposite of what Sawyer thinks it is important. The more balanced a game is, the more exclusive and unforgiving it is.
     
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  11. Lhynn Arcane

    Lhynn
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    What the fuck am i reading?
     
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  12. Lurker King Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    It is simple. A game like BG2 is easy, unbalanced. A game like Battle Brothers, it’s harder, it’s balanced. When Sawyer talks about the importance of “balance” he is actually talking about the importance of rewarding every player choice, no matter how stupid it is. Do you want to make a muscled wizard that kick ass and throw awesum spells? No problems, let’s include your nonsense whims, because we have to be inclusive! Of course, “balance” in this sense makes the game more unbalanced in the strict sense. Obsidian is not only ruining your hopes of receiving better games in the future, it’s also ruining your view of things. In a weird and unexpected turn of events, Sawyer’s sperging about game design is hijacking the most important word from your vocabulary, the only word that you can use against agents of decline and popamolism. Well done, Sawyer. Now some players can believe in good conscience that popamole games like BG2 are hardcore because they are unbalanced.
     
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  13. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    lol. Get off your high horse and put the thesaurus away, you're not fooling anyone with that smug prick attitude. Your logic is flawed, I don't think you understand what balance and challenge is in a single player game. It's pointless to argue with someone like you cause you have your mind set in your ways and it's clear you're never going to budge, just like those ultra left wing SJW nutbars. Retards like you are a cancer on the gaming industry.


    [​IMG]


    Edit 1: FFS, fucked up the quoting. IDK how to fix this.
    Edit 2: NVM figured it out.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
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  14. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    :retarded:

    Another scrubby BG2 fanboy ready for my ignore list. Chapter 2-3 Athkatla was good, but from Spellhold to Suldanessellar we're talking LINEAR ROMP. Throne of Bhaal is one of the most munchkinny expansions ever made, and a total snoozefest.

    Oh, fuck off you lil' faggot. I bet your voice cracks whenever you speak. The original BG is the more impressive feat, by far. Have you even played it (and not in the BG2 engine)? Read my in-depth retrospective (see sig), and lrnsmth.
     
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  15. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    What is the dungeon strategy like, though? Resource management? That was my question. I don't give a rat's ass about tactical encounters, if you can just "rest rinse repeat", after each one (like in BG2). I want to play an RPG with tactical encounters AND an overall dungeon/area strategy (i.e, enforced resource management).
     
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  16. Neanderthal Arcane

    Neanderthal
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    Personally I thought Lilarcor were a dumbarse sword for a dumbarse, Minsc, make up for his shit INT an WIS an stop im gettin charmed an confused all time. Useful but that were about it, soon replaced wi Korgan usin Stonefire whose Berserk made im immune to loadsa shit anyway.
     
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  17. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    Yes i'm a fan of the game, but like i said in my previous post it has it's problems. I don't want to get in to these problems because they have already been discussed to death on these forums over the years, and for the most part i agree.

    mmhmm.

    Yes you are right, but why is this a bad thing? Chapters 2-3 is 40 hours (give or take) worth of pure open side quest content and sure you don't have to do it all, but it has little to do with the plot. (plot/story being one of the problems i have with BG2 as i mentioned above). By the time all that shit is done, all the characters are decked out and i'm in the 'it's time to end the game mode'. I can understand if there was shit that you didn't like between Spellhold to Suldanessellar cause i wasn't to crazy about it all myself, but if it's the linearity, and not the content that gets under your skin the most than idk what else to say.

    It is disappointing, but it has it's moments, not many but some. Honestly it's hard to argue with you on this cause i pretty much agree, but i wouldn't call it a snoozefest.

    A tranny calling me a faggot? oh that's grand. You pre-op or post-op? Or are you one of those wierd degenerates who pretends to be a chic online? Either way...lol

    Stop projecting.

    Yes, i own both the original box cd sets, bought them a year or so after they came out. I enjoyed BG 1 for what it is (yes in the original engine), a nice low lvl adventure romp. The story/plot is miles ahead of BG2 imo. But on the whole, BG2 is just a superior product through and through.

    Not wasting my time reading your try hard shit blog. you reek of a millennial, and i don't give 2 fucks of what some dumb butt-hurt millennial has to say about anything. Tell me your age and maybe i might be more inclined.
    Your whole post can just be summed up in Cartman voice: "Wahhh Wahh, mommy mommy, people like BG2 and i don't cause i think it's sheeeet and they don't know what's :incline: but i dooo! wahhhhh why are these retards sooo dumb wahhhhh!"

    Now go wipe those but-hurt tears off your face with a pine cone.
     
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  18. BBMorti Arcane

    BBMorti
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    98% of BG can be dominated by a wand of sleep (With or without SCS mod), an item any class can use. Point being that for a metagamer it doesn't offer anything remotely more challenging than a rest spamming BG2-player. All encounters can also be made trivial in BG2 (SCS mod, or not) but not with one item.
     
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  19. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    That's what you came up with? Look, if you're gonna list OP shit do so, pls.

    Robe of Vecna: insane casting time reduction, stacks with the ammy: get your spells off long before anyone else. A munchkin's dream.
    Celestial Fury +3: Stuns almost anything, even MR-immunes. Best one-handed wield in SoA. Also the best backstabbing weapon until Staff of the Ram.
    Flail of Ages +5: Slows almost anything, even MR-immunes. Elemental damage penetrates stoneskin to disrupt spellcasting. This weapon slays any foe, excepting magical golems (an extremely rare enemy that is immune to magical weapons). Best one-handed wield in BG2, ToB included.
    Belm/Kundane: off-hand wields that bestow +1 ApR. This is how you get 10 ApR even before GWW HLA. Tuigan is a bow that gives +1 ApR.
    Crom Faeyr: 25 Strength, turns anyone into a Titan. Dual-wield with Crom and solo BG2 with a warrior.
    Defender of Easthaven: 20% DR, stacks with Hardiness and innate DR for 80% total DR.
    Foebane +5: Demon-killer. heal 4d4 HP per round. dual-wield with purifier. 'nuff said.
    Blackrazor +3: stacking on-hit level drain, plus heals/hastes wielder.
    Vhailor Helm: self-simulacrum, you munchkin faggot!
    Staff of the Magi +5: at-will invis, hits as +5, lvl 30 on-hit dispel, lots of other bullshit abilities.
    Staff of the Ram +6: A kensai/thief dual chunks almost anything with this.
    Mace of Disruption +2: Vamp-vanquisher. Bypasses Lich's mantle because it hits as +5. Bane of Demi-Lich, Kangaxx.
    Shield of Balduran +3: Eats Beholders for brekky.
    Shield of Harmony +2: Laugh in the face of common negative statuses.
    Carsomyr +6: 1d12 +6, +6 vs. chaotic evil. on-hit Dispel, and wieldable by pallys and UAI thieves.
    Gram the Sword of Grief +5: drain bosses 10lvls/rnd.
    Psion's Blade +5: anti-illithid wield.
    Ixil's Spike +6: capable of impaling bosses, very dmging wield.
    Spear +3: Impaler: this is what you wield b4 you get Ixil's, +10 piercing dmg for romping SoA.
    Axe of the Unyielding +5: 10% vorpal, its 3 HP/round regen stacks with Gaxx.
    Ravager +6: 1d10 +6 +3d6. In addition, Sarevok has 15% vorpal on any non-boss wielding this.

    List is not exhaustive, not by a long shot. Not to mention all the Str girdles, magic protection items, OP armors, perma-haste items (whole party has perma-haste) etc.
     
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  20. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    98%? Why do you lie?

    Solo sorc poverty run. No items needed, dumbfuck.

    Anyway, Durlag's Tower, all by itself, makes BG superior to BG2. There isn't anything comparable to its encounter design, itemization and resource management in BG2. In fact, DT is the only TRU meat-grinder the IE RPGs ever offered; in no small part thanks to its remoteness/depth, non-trivial on-rest spawns, timed respawns, stingy itemization, and BG engine "resting only heals 1 HP". Apart from the Aurora toolset, it represents the best of BioWare.
     
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  21. Lhynn Arcane

    Lhynn
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    Whats so wrong with this?
     
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  22. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    I dislike heavy narrative drive interspersed with cutscenes. It's one reason I've slacked off on my Siege of Dragonspear walkthrough, despite getting lots of cheap hits on my blog. Nothing is wrong with linearity, per se; though it's clear the campaign drops off after Spellhold, and falls apart in ToB.

    My blog may be shit, but there is nothing tryhard about what I wrote. I criticize BG pretty heavily, and some ppl thought unfairly! But if you can find a better write-up - especially one that covers DT in its entirety - show me.
     
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  23. BBMorti Arcane

    BBMorti
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    Lie? Don't waste my time with idiotic questions just because you can't play the game. Unless you wish to fight a few selected encounters you will wipe the floor with them by using the wand of sleep. You pick up the evermemory ring near the friendly arm, you go south and sell it to the mage, you pick up his wand of sleep (Usable by any class, as I said) Then the game is pretty much won, for any competent player. You calling me a liar is just making evident you are a bad enough player you even warrant the need for creating a scrubby "guide" for the game, which speaks volumes.

    For BG2 I was talking about a single item used by any class to make the game trivial, not a single most powerful class you imbecile.

    Durlags tower is far better designed than most anything else in BG2, true, but for a combat fag that doesn't matter when the encounters are trivial. The tower as a whole is mostly dangerous because of traps, when you know the puzzles and trap locations it is as easy as anything and with SCS most of the tower is still beaten by the use of sleep charge spam, the greater doppelgangers you might want to throw in a greater malison first, if you don't have that spell, use a few more charges. I hardly ever take any damage playing BG, so if we are talking metagamers the 1hp rest is a none-factor to me, no matter how much it seemingly impresses you.

    I played both the games a lot, I liked them mainly because of the combat and prep-work for certain encounters. IF you prepare, the game can't touch you, like a little game of chess. Go to friendly arm, pick up the ring (for selling) + Jaheiras invis potion, keep the potion in case you get the archer ambush, instantly drink it and leave, sell the ring to the mage, buy the core items (wand + few scrolls of invis and some potions) and you are untouchable from there, if you are competent.
     
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  24. Trash Player Scholar

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    On topic of AoD, there is next to none attrition. You can patch to full health every fight with nominal investment. Stat debuffs can only be addressed by npc healers but such occasions are rare.
    There is no dungeoneering in the game, even ruin exploration is consisted of just CYOAs and set-piece fights. Consumables are however limited in quantities by campaign, it is generous enough if you know
    where to look and money is not a issue in this game but the limits are there. AoD is most similar to those Eastern European RPGs influenced by Fallout 1/2, i.e. metagaming heavy, ambiguous line between exploits and designs, start hard but easy later with a few bumps, erratical designs but oddly charming to the right crowd.
    On UR, attrition exists in some short segments and the end game area. This issue is either non-existent for some builds or significant for others. Seriously, as even the most severe ones can be overcame by
    annoying shopping sprees and inventory management. Consumable usages are limited by cooldowns and AP instead of limited quantities, they are not really a part of meaningful Campaign-wide resource management but a set of cool-down driven abilities. UR is like an IE game with turn-based combat, reminiscing BG1 the most. I think you can see that already.
    TL;DR: Forget about these games. They have little resource-managing dungeoneering in them.
    Do you play blobbers? This thread is worth digging. Imo, you just cannot enjoy most IE games and its derivatives/descendants anymore, may as well just move on to another sub-genre.
     
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  25. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Why are you being such a pathetic liar still? Evermemory is a needle in a haystack, that NO ONE is gonna find short of using a walkthrough, pixel hunting, or playing BG in the BG2 engine to take advantage of Tab-key highlighting.

    Sleep only works on low HD foes aka mooks. Yes, there are lots of mooks in the early going but they don't constitute 98% of the encounter design. So, why did you lie?

    It's not a guide: it's an in-depth retrospective on the original incarnation; one that, to my knowledge, is unequaled. If you disagree, pls show me a write-up that is superior. I'm srs, I'd like to read it.

    But the Wand of Sleep doesn't make the game trivial, you liar. Literally nobody is gonna agree with you. Nobody.

    How are you putting to sleep higher HD foes and MR foes (golems, skeleton warriors). Enlighten me, lil' liar. Remember, you said the campaign can be owned with ONE item (the Wand of Sleep). You've already compromised on your assertion with a scroll of Greater Malison. What other items are you pretending you don't need? :lol:

    Are you trying to impress me with your meta? If so, it's pretty pathetic and pales in comparison to the aspie meta gracing my retrospective. Srsly read what you just wrote. Are you a Metal Hurlant alt, btw?
     
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