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Anime Enlighten me about VR gear bros

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Prime Junta, Mar 24, 2018.

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  1. Prime Junta Self-Ejected Patron Vatnik

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    I'm going to need a new computer in the next few months and have decided I'm going to make the leap to full VR capability. I used to do some semi-serious flight simming in the late 90s to early noughties and have checked out some X-Plane 11 vids and it looks fucking awesome enough that I want to get back into it, and I also want to indulge my latent passion for driving too fast without risking life, limb, or the stern glare of the judge. Looking at Project Cars 2 and Assetto Corsa (Competizione) for that part.

    I've been doing some reading but am getting more heat than light from it. The computer itself is simple enough, but I'm a bit lost with the rest of it. I take it I'll need a general-purpose VR controller to point at things and shit, and then specific controllers for flight and driving, no?
    • Oculus Rift or HTC Vive, which is better and why? Discuss.
    • Which general-purpose VR controller should I go with? Vive seem to have those batons that you point around, and Oculus also has the things that strap to your hands and track finger movements. Pros and cons? How do these work in tandem with flight or driving controllers? Can I use a stick, yoke, or steering wheel with the Oculus thing wrapped around my hand?
    • Which is better for VR flight sims, HOTAS or yoke? While the main idea is to pretend-fly a Cessna, I might also want to do some pew-pew-pew stuff like Elite Dangerous.
    • Which HOTAS/yoke + pedal setup specifically should I go for? Back in the day I had some Thrustmasters and I quite liked them, are they still good? How about Logitech? Others?
    • Which steering wheel + pedal + gearshift setup specifically should I go for?
    Ease of setup and take-down are a concern as I probably won't be able to make this a permanent installation. Cost isn't that big a deal, I'm willing to drop a few hundred extra on the controllers if it's worth it; if we're talking over a grand extra then it would really need to be something truly special. (By "extra" I mean cost over the cheapest thing that could possibly work.)
     
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  2. Santander02 Arcane

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    Joystick, It seemed to me logitech made better racing wheels than flight sticks so I went with Saitek, but now they went and got themselves bought by logitech. I still own an x52 pro from before that aquisition and it's p. solid. No idea if they are still as good/bad post buyout. Whatever you do stay away from their cyborg series, they're junk.

    I was considering a thurstmaster too and indeed their budget hotas stick seems to be the best, but I wanted something a little more high quality than that and ended up settling for saitek in that price range at the time. Thurstmaster's higher tier offering, the warthog, was way overkill for me.

    Still, if you have money to burn and want something that doesn't break down after a few years, or months even, of use, then take look at CH Products. What they make is practical looking, none of the lights, fancy buttons, and other aesthetic crap like Saitek or TM, but man, their stuff is built to last...too bad they cost an arm a leg

    VR, Vive is going to launch a PRO version of their headset, and I'd wager oculus is going to match them with their own revision of their hardware before long, so I'm holding out for those.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  3. deama Liturgist

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    I wonder how many people on the 'dex have a VR set?
     
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  4. Jigawatt Arcane

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    For your use case I would recommend the Rift. Normally I would say the Vive because I find VR more compelling when you can get up and walk around (which is where the Vive excels) since you're mostly focussing on 'cockpit view' and will have chair bound controls you may as well get the slightly nicer optics / ergonomics that come from the Rift.

    Short answer, they won't. You'll use one or the other. Rift controls tend to work better for 'traditional' games because they have thumbsticks + analogue triggers. I like the Vive controllers for things that are VR first though, but again looks like that won't apply to you.

    Where I "work":
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Prime Junta Self-Ejected Patron Vatnik

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    Thanks. Based on my reading I've been leaning towards Oculus as well, so this pushes me a notch further that way. If the Vive Pro comes out soonish I will look at that too.

    The CH Products stuff looks good. That brand rings a very vague bell, I've definitely come across it back in the day. It's pricey but not completely outrageous, I will take a close look at what they're offering. Looks like they have a yoke as well and claim that that and their pedals also work for racing sims which would be a definite plus.

    Edit: holy shit how could I forget

    I used to have this one, amazed they still make it, or one just like it: http://www.chproducts.com/Flightstick-Pro-v13-d-723.html
     
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  6. Urthor Liturgist Patron

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    Don't get Oculus. Best option is #1 if you are buying a VR headset tomorrow get the Samsung Odyssey mixed reality headset which has a 1440*1600 resolution, #2 is get the new more expensive Vive Pro that is coming out with the same screens. Also walking around with a Vive Pro is a sick feature and is a huge amount of fun.


    The #1 thing that comes into the VR equation is the resolution of the screens you are watching. Not the total resolution, the resolution per eye which is a feature manufacturers desperately want to conceal on their spec sheet because it commodotises their product completely.

    At the end of the day a 1000*1000 screen for each eyeball functionally looks like a 1000*1000 computer monitor. And when your eyeball is exactly one inch away from said monitor the impact of the resolution is a huuugge part of the experience and any increase in resolution is as impactful as increasing monitor sizes back in the old days before 1080p monitors.

    The screen manufacture is the single, biggest, difference between the headsets and the feature you have to drill down on. The Oculus Rift and the HTC Vive original have the same screens, 1080×1200 resolution per eye and made the same manufacturer, Samsung.

    Functionally I'd absolutely say they are the same headset in many ways, iirc one of the two is much more popular with people who play games with glasses but I can't remember which because 20/20 vision master race.

    The Samsung Odyssey, which uses the Microsoft mixed reality ecosystem, has new 1440x1600 screens (from Samsung) and that has basically made it the one and only Windows mixed reality device you should give a shit about. The resultion increase is pretty huge and incredibly appreciable when you are reading text and just using the device in general.

    The Samsung is however the more complex option because the Windows Mixed reality ecosystem doesn't have all the games working for it, http://store.steampowered.com/search/?vrsupport=104 here is pretty much the list of games there are. Check what you want to play, because that list is the de facto definitive list for what you are able to play on a Windows device. But if you are willing to get your hands dirty with getting software to run I'd say this is the best choice on the market atm.

    The HTC Vive Pro is coming soon(tm) and has the same screens from the same OEM (Samsung), and will have walkaround in your room support (walkaround is pretty cool) and a better ecoystem. So depending on when that ships get that. There's also some weird company named Pimax that is making even bigger screens in its own, Kickstartered headset, but they are a) unlaunched b) potentially has framerate, compatibility and all sorts of other issues, and c) probably backordered into 2019 because nerds and VR.

    Honestly I wouldn't go for a first gen headset at this point, I'd wait for the Vive Pro or try my luck with Windows Mixed reality atm. Definitely wouldn't get a first gen headset because that's like buying a monitor with less than 1080p resolution, why would you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  7. KazikluBey Augur Patron

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    I've only tried the Creative G29, but I looked around during Christmas. Fanatec seems to be the way to go; ClubSport wheelbase for premium, or their slightly less premium CSL Elite. Especially their pedals (load cell and vibration feedback) and stick shifter put them above Thrustmaster and the like. They also seem to have good support from racing sim developers. Supposedly direct drive wheelbases are even better, and Fanatec showed off their own direct drive prototype in September, but no news since then. Most direct drive wheelbases seem to be for installation in a whole sim rig, like the Heusinkveld pedals at which point you're no longer in enthusiast but in professional territory, with prices to match.

    Assetto Corsa is nice indeed. If you'd like to pretend to be Tommi Mäkinen or Marcus Grönholm, there's Dirt: Rally, the only really decent rally game in recent years I think. Other than that, supposedly you can't beat Richard Burns Rally (particularly modded) for realism.
     
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  8. Prime Junta Self-Ejected Patron Vatnik

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    Urthor hmmm thanks, good points. Maybe it's worth it to hold off until the Vive Pro is out. I checked the Windows Mixed Reality compatibility list and the sims I'm most interested in aren't on it, so that rules it out.

    KazikluBey I've been looking at Fanatec before. They look very cool, and the price is at the outer edges of what I might be willing to invest. Thing with them though is that unless I'm mistaken, they're strictly racing, i.e. I'd need to get a second set of controllers for flight from the get-go. With the CH Products yoke + pedals I could do both, and if it proves unsatisfactory for racing, buy a wheel later.

    Dirt: Rally looks very cool, I'll have to give that a close look too.
     
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  9. Insect Hordes Scholar

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    Here's the thing. If you are the type to actually play bigass simulator games with the full set up, VR is another tool. If you like racing sims but ain't playing 'em every night. You will find this fucking VR headset collecting dust and constantly downloading updates you'll never use. They're cool party pieces but just don't have the number of games or "experiences" that make them worth having. It is cool. Make no mistake. There's just no games. Well, there are games in the same way there were games for obscure NIP CD-ROM vanity systems in th' 90s.
     
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  10. KazikluBey Augur Patron

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    Yes, Fanatec is strictly racing; I only quoted the wheel/pedal/shift bit since I've no idea about flight sims or flight sim equipment. Playing realistically in Dirt Rally career mode is nice, but sometimes it's fun to do a one-off race and just pretend it's a flight sim like this guy:
     
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  11. Kyl Von Kull The Night Tripper Patron

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    I extorted an Oculus out of some institution a couple years ago. Tried to play a platformer. Projectile vomited within minutes. Since then it’s been lying in my junk drawer, waiting for the moment when a VR game comes out that’s good enough to justify the vertigo.
     
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  12. bert Arcane

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    I own a Rift but I've only tried the Vive for a couple sessions, so here's my thoughts:

    The Rift overall has much better ergonomics than the Vive. I find the Rift controllers much more natural and intuitive to use than the Vive's, especially because of the trigger button placements. The headset is also much lighter, and I've been able to wear it for 2+ hour sessions at a time without feeling discomfort. The headsets for the Rift also comes with a built-in speaker system with really good sound stage and a microphone, whereas the Vive requires you to plug in your own headphones.

    The Rift's sensor peripherals are connected via USB 3.0 while the Vive's only need to be connected to a power outlet. It's easier to set up the Vive and it does 360 tracking just by plug and play so the Vive has that going for it. However, the Rift's sensors, with extended USB 3.0 cables, can also do 360 tracking if you put the sensors up high enough or simply mount them on the ceilings. There are a few guides on how to get 360 tracking on Oculus Rift sensors without having to buy a third sensor unit. This is assuming you have the space for it of course.

    https://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-rif...tup-guide-easiest-no-drilling-holes-cheapest/

    There are some Rift exclusive games, but I've heard pirates say that you can get them running on the Vive as well.

    I'd recommend the Rift over the Vive, but like Santander02 said, I'd wait a little bit to see if they announce an upgraded Rift to match the Vive PRO (which will come with supposedly better ergonomics and built-in audio).
     
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  13. Dexter Arcane

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    Check out this thread bro, lots of Info and Updates there about VR: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rift-vive-vr-general.109448/

    If you just want to sit down and play your Sims, Oculus Rift is probably the better deal as it was designed for a "Seated experience" (and as someone has said it has better egonomics/material and a more thought through/useable controller right now). If you are interested in other stuff and want to also be able to walk around and have enough room the Vive might be better.
    You'll get either the Oculus Touch or the Vive Wand Controllers with the VR HMD kit you buy, there's not really that much choice involved there since they're both paired and work the best with their given HMD, there's some testing being done on some prototype Controllers like the Steam Knuckles but afaik they're still some time out.

    Controllers right now (Windows MR, Oculus Touch, Vive Wand, PS Move, Steam Knuckle Prototype):
    [​IMG]
    I'm not a Sim Enthusiast, have mainly dabbled in it, but I got a Logitech G25 racing wheel and a X52 Pro HOTAS Setup, which seemed to be some of the most popular "Mainstream" gear a few years back with affordable pricing, so that might be a place to start. Elite: Dangerous used that HOTAS Setup as the Standard. It moves in game according to your actual movements in real life, when you start moving it you can see the pilot move it according to how you are and pressing buttons etc.:
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Easiest to just "pick up and play" will likely be some of the newest Windows MR headsets since they have Inside-out tracking on the HMD itself. The others use Outside-in tracking, for Oculus you will have to use two front cameras for head- and controller tracking, the Vive is the most complicated to Setup, you will need to put up the two base stations in opposite corners of a room or space you want to use as your "VR space". But again it's generally not just meant for sitting down and using a wheel/joystick, but for being able to walk around in a limited space. This is also generally a more important factor than many realize, since inclination to play is often tied to how quick and effortless you can just do it. Fortunately with both HMDs it's not that complicated. For Oculus you'll just have to have two of these sitting on a table or whatever connected via USB 3.0 and the headset itself connected via HDMI and USB 3.0:
    [​IMG]

    For Vive you can just attach the two base stations to a wall up high and don't really have to take them down. If you're thinking about a Vive, the "Vive Pro" (Standalone e.g. without Controllers and base stations till latter in Summer) with better resolution and some other features comes out in under two weeks: https://www.vive.com/us/product/vive-pro/ http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rift-vive-vr-general.109448/page-2#post-5442179
    [​IMG]

    In both cases you'll likely have more of an issue with lugging around and attaching/setting up the wheel/shift/pedals or Joystick/throttle combos every time you want to play a Sim if it ain't stationary.

    Not anytime this year, they're targeting the low-end/price "I want to experience VR but don't even have a phone" audience in 2018: https://www.oculus.com/go/
     
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  14. Santander02 Arcane

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    Oh yeah, forgot to mention, Saitek's x56 HOTAS was designed specifically to work with VR but it is a) expensive and b) it's reviews are mediocre, mostly due to durability issues. I'd keep an eye out for any improved revision of this stick though.

    Also if you decide to hold out for the next gen of VR sets but still want to play your sims in the meantime, then I recommend you get a TrackIR 5 with the clip pro attachment as a stopgap solution, as a plus, it also won't make your gpu cry so you will not need to downgrade your graphic settings when using it.
     
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  15. Prime Junta Self-Ejected Patron Vatnik

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    Thanks a lot bros, that was highly informative. The Logitech gear looks promising too. I think I'll be able to leave the VR stations and cameras in place, so it is about the wheel/yoke and other stuff as I will need my desk for other things.

    The Vive Pro seems interesting mostly because of the higher resolution. Still, I haven't heard that many people complaining about resolution with either the Oculus or the Vive, and of course that extra resolution doesn't come for free. The trouble is I honestly don't know how sensitive I am going to be to the "screen door effect;" with conventional screens or TV I honestly don't "feel" much of a difference between 1080p and 4k although of course I can see it if I'm looking for it. But I don't know what relevance that has to VR which is a completely different experience.

    So far based on this thread my list is starting to shorten --

    - Oculus or Vive Pro, however with the latter I'll have to also check the impact on the rest of the system, so probably wait for some reviews
    - Take a close look at the CH Products controllers, compare with the Logitech G25 and X52 (can the Logitech driving pedals be used as rudder pedals in a flight sim?)

    As I said earlier I'm really mostly interested in flight and racing sims, so the Vive's better spatial performance is something that at this point at least I don't know if I'd even use. You never know though, and of course it's also possible the whole thing will wear thin quickly.
     
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  16. Dexter Arcane

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    Honestly I'd just get a Rift if you don't intend to wait/use it for something else, consider the Vive or think about something like the Samsung Odyssey (although I don't have any personal experience with that one yet). It's better for your use-case, more comfortable and a lot cheaper for now anyway.

    The Vive Pro comes out in April for $800, but it's only the headset meant as an "Upgrade", they'll put together an entire Kit with LightHouse V2 and new Controllers in ~Summer 2018 at some point, but it'll likely be more expensive. You'd have to purchase 2 base-stations (2x $135) and two controllers (2x $130) for it to work and that's ~$530, which is more expensive than just buying the Original Vive for $500: https://www.vive.com/us/accessory/ https://www.vive.com/us/product/vive-virtual-reality-system/
    If you want the Vive Pro that's either ~$1300 or $1330 right now until they offer a package deal later in Summer.

    The Rift only costs $400 and includes the two Controllers and two cameras and you also get a bunch of games & demo stuff like "Robo Recall, Luckyʼs Tale, Quill, Medium, Dead and Buried, and Toybox" with it. It used to also contain a XBone Controller in the package, but they uncoupled that after they released the Touch Controllers.

    If you decide to go that way, remember that there's a difference between X52 and X52 Pro in build quality, material and a bit of other stuff.
     
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  17. Juan_Carlo Arcane

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    I have a Vive and regret it. VR will be awesome once it doesn't need cables and the video quality improves, but right now it's shit. For me, the video quality is the biggest issue. If I were you, I'd wait until the Vive Pro debuts to see if its video improves. The screen door effect with current gen VR is as bad as people say and it kills immersion.
     
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  18. Shackleton Prophet Patron

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    At least over here in Brexitland, the Vive Pro is costing £799 just for the headset, so base stations and controllers on top of that will be pushing £1200 or thereabouts. That's a lot of cash for something that's by no means certain to catch on. It seems quite likely the 'non-cockpit movement causing nausea' is impossible to solve, given how our brains and sense of balance work. There's a reason the Rift was mainly developed as a seated experience, they knew it was much more acceptable for our senses to feel like we were in a vehicle and moving rather than walking around without using our legs. The Rift is £399 here now so unless you've got more money than sense, the price must be a consideration.

    I must admit I'm tempted to shell out the cash for the Rift purely to go with my G25 wheel and racing games, but I suspect Insect Hordes is actually right and I'll use it for a while then let it gather dust.
     
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  19. Dexter Arcane

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    I disagree with this part, although to each his own, I think you pretty much forget about it if you immerse yourself in the experience and wouldn't call it anywhere near "shit". The more resolution the better obviously, but there's other more important concerns (for instance whether your GPU can even support proper FPS at said resolutions) and with the base Vive for instance the Standard "strap" it comes with that's kinda loose, which you'd either have to replace with the "Deluxe Audio Strap" they sell extra that also comes with a pair of attached headphones (also already included in the Rift) or get the Vive Pro.

    Vive Pro will already have a Wireless "Add-On", check the other thread:
    Other than that, if you intend to buy the Rift, might be better to wait a week: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/86zhhk/oculus_rift_2nd_anniversary_will_have_sales/
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  20. Santander02 Arcane

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  21. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

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    People still talk about this revolutionary useless shit?!
     
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  22. Urthor Liturgist Patron

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    Found the guy who hasn't actually used one of these headsets. Unlike the last big gimmick, 3D TV/Films, VR headsets are actually the most awesome toys ever created once you give them a go, the issue is the price/motion sickness and general immaturity of the market especially with the mainstream headsets.

    VR is undoubtedly the future, but the future really, really appreciates really high resolution screens with a huge field of view that aren't on the market atm, and thousand dollar plus NVIDIA graphics cards in SLI.
     
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  23. Prime Junta Self-Ejected Patron Vatnik

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    So let's talk computer specs. Is the GTX 1080 worth the extra price over the 1070? How about a fast i7 over a fast i5?
     
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  24. Urthor Liturgist Patron

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    Don't buy a new GPU, wait for the next generation of Intel cards to be announced at Computex in June then try and preorder one at RRP IMO. Just not worth hopping on the current GPU generation when it's overpriced due to mining and the next one is around the corner
     
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  25. Dexter Arcane

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    People keep repeating this, but like every 2nd movie runs only in 3D in the cinema nowadays, and every single one running in IMAX cinemas is 3D. Does stuff like Pacific Rim Uprising, Tomb Raider, Black Panther, Jumanji, Blade Runner 2049 etc. even still run in 2D?

    And every other Blockbuster movie I get to watch in 3D on my 4K 3D TV, latest being Thor Ragnarok and Justice League. Funny thing, 3D movies also look a lot better in VR HMDs, since they replicate natural 3D a lot easier, since there's actually a separate render for both eyes but the resolution ain't quite there yet for movie watching. A VR HMD needs 2K per eye resolution to properly display even 1080p movies at full detail.

    I think the market will grow gradually and pick up immensely once there's a killer app. So far there's no Super Mario, World of Warcraft or Call of Duty for VR yet. Ready Player One launching in 2 weeks might be able to create some cultural hype, if it turns out good it might be to VR what Jurassic Park was to dinosaurs e.g. every child wanted one and they bought everything from toys to drawing books and even encyclopedias with em.

    It's generally worth getting the best you can afford. Either a 1080/Ti or waiting for 2080 somewhere between April-July.
     
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