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Epiphany about the nature of RPGs

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
wtf? How did this happen? Vault Dweller You need to address how this build (not the one right above) got the terminator without super-save reload.
It's an alchemist build relying on bombs, bolas, and metagaming. It's cool that you can beat most fights this way but it's not something a new player can do without a guide. Sort of an extreme challenge build when you're bored with the game, no different than Mindless' no defense build.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,089
10 years from now Jason will release his own crpg that has spells in place of skills and classes that define race sexuality and philosophical look on life and will be huge succes and praised as the second coming of black isle, and we all will bite our tongues.

Jason Liang's about to make you his bitch!
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,352
Location
Crait
10 years from now Jason will release his own crpg that has spells in place of skills and classes that define race sexuality and philosophical look on life and will be huge succes and praised as the second coming of black isle, and we all will bite our tongues.

Jason Liang's about to make you his bitch!

Just wait until I finish my conversion of Arcanum into the HBS Shadowrun engine! In TEN YEARS!
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,573
Why are you judging him during a discussion with me and then insisting that I read your debate with him?

I don't care about your personal beef with Jason Liang or your presumptions about his psychology. It doesn't change the fact that he's right about the poor implementation of class-based systems in modern CRPGs.

Also, why are you acting like the arrogance of Jason Liang's thesis is so important? This is the Codex. Being melodramatic is part of the style. He's not the first one to proclaim that his definition of CRPGs is Holy, and though his conclusions are extreme, the issues he raises are not invalid.
Dude, just do what I do and put the fool on Ignore. That puts the butthurt on him like no other to the point he will stalk you to abuse and downrate you out of pure spite, but since you don't see his shit, who cares? Better than having your blood pressure raised by some no name moron on the Internet.

God forbid someone approach your posts with a modicum of analytical rigor. Oh, the horror! Oh, the humanity!
A raving fuckwit who spammed my profile with roundabout accusations of being an alt and then arrogantly engaged in a discussion about me being an alt with his friend on my profile page as if it was his own personal chat room, and "analytical vigour" are mutually exclusive entities. It is laughable that you'd even try to pass that kind of shit off as fact.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Meanwhile, BG2 does not react to your choices outside of combat.

Sure it does. It reacts to class - class specific stronghold quest chains. It reacts to gender - romances. It reacts to race - romances again. But not only does the world react to your class, it reacts to other characters' classes. In the world of BG2, character class is a concept that actually exists and that NPCs react to and talk about. Keldorn KNOWS that Edwin is an Evil Wizard, and reacts to that. Think about those Edwin robe jokes. That only works since wizards can only wear robes. When your companions banter with each other, they're discussing topics based mostly on role - class, race, gender and alignment. Class creates roles for many characters, not just your PC
Romance and party banter, seriously? That's pretty cheap. The world reacts... It would be cool if actually the entire gameworld reacted to Edwin being an evil wizard, instead of just Keldorn saying a few lines. Isn't this an example of what youre saying, Rpgs going the easy route?
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Why are you judging him during a discussion with me and then insisting that I read your debate with him?

I don't care about your personal beef with Jason Liang or your presumptions about his psychology. It doesn't change the fact that he's right about the poor implementation of class-based systems in modern CRPGs.

Also, why are you acting like the arrogance of Jason Liang's thesis is so important? This is the Codex. Being melodramatic is part of the style. He's not the first one to proclaim that his definition of CRPGs is Holy, and though his conclusions are extreme, the issues he raises are not invalid.
Dude, just do what I do and put the fool on Ignore. That puts the butthurt on him like no other to the point he will stalk you to abuse and downrate you out of pure spite, but since you don't see his shit, who cares? Better than having your blood pressure raised by some no name moron on the Internet.

God forbid someone approach your posts with a modicum of analytical rigor. Oh, the horror! Oh, the humanity!
A raving fuckwit who spammed my profile with roundabout accusations of being an alt and then arrogantly engaged in a discussion about me being an alt with his friend on my profile page as if it was his own personal chat room, and "analytical vigour" are mutually exclusive entities. It is laughable that you'd even try to pass that kind of shit off as fact.

rigor...as in rigorous... I was referring to the above discussion.

But now that you mention it, butthurt much? Why so sensitive about being/not being an alt? Who cares?

Here is some advice: if someone gets your goat, don’t let them know! Pretend like that goat is still in the barn. Because once you freak out over it, everyone will want to pick on you. It’s like taking candy from a baby. Try LARPing as someone who doesn’t give a fuck.

Will you unlock your profile page? I’d really like to see this discussion. In order to weigh the merits of your argument, of course, not for entertainment.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,352
Location
Crait
Ok, but there are other examples as well. For instance, your companions each have their own quest chain which most often reacts to their class, race, alignment and gender. And obviously there is a lot of NPC reactivity when Viconia is in your party.

Another example is equipment restriction. A good example of this is Carsomyr. It's a weapon that only a Paladin PC or Keldorn can use (at least before a Thief's UAD feat). That's special and cool, one of the more memorable parts of BG2. Imagine playing BG2 for the first time and you choose to play a Paladin, but you have no idea if the game actually has a Holy Avenger sword. And then you find it, that's a cool moment.

And of course, if you play a Wizard, the world definitely reacts since the Cowled Wizards of Athlaka come to burinate you if you cast your spells outside.
 
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ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,368
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
10 years from now Jason will release his own crpg that has spells in place of skills and classes that define race sexuality and philosophical look on life and will be huge succes and praised as the second coming of black isle, and we all will bite our tongues.

Jason Liang's about to make you his bitch!

Just wait until I finish my conversion of Arcanum into the HBS Shadowrun engine! In TEN YEARS!
Oh right, you're that guy.
 

Citizen

Guest
10 years from now Jason will release his own crpg that has spells in place of skills and classes that define race sexuality and philosophical look on life and will be huge succes and praised as the second coming of black isle, and we all will bite our tongues.

Jason Liang's about to make you his bitch!

Just wait until I finish my conversion of Arcanum into the HBS Shadowrun engine! In TEN YEARS!

Disgusting.
I would :takemymoney: someone for arcanum conversion in ToEE engine.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Ok, but there are other examples as well. For instance, your companions each have their own quest chain which most often reacts to their class, race, alignment and gender. And obviously there is a lot of NPC reactivity when Viconia is in your party.

Another example is equipment restriction. A good example of this is Carsomyr. It's a weapon that only a Paladin PC or Keldorn can use (at least before a Thief's UAD feat). That's special and cool, one of the more memorable parts of BG2. Imagine playing BG2 for the first time and you choose to play a Paladin, but you have no idea if the game actually has a Holy Avenger sword. And then you find it, that's a cool moment.

And of course, if you play a Wizard, the world definitely reacts since the Cowled Wizards of Athlaka come to burinate you if you cast your spells outside.
Granted it had a lot of cool items. My brother wouldn't shut up about that sword. Still I don't see how that or the special questlines make BG more RPG than others. In fact isn't it the opposite, isn't all that just, larping??
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,352
Location
Crait
I would :takemymoney: someone for arcanum conversion in ToEE engine.

Combat engine, sure. But you'd have to heavily modify ToEE's character system to match Arcanum's character system (classless) and character progression (character points), whereas HBS Shadowrun is much closer, in addition to having closer native art assets. Also, HBS Shadowrun has built-in gun combat. ToEE does not.

Still, Troll characters the size of ToEE trolls would be cool.
 
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Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Coming from another angle here, I think the D&D tradition of multifunctional parties centered around dungeon delving is as rote at this point as the tolkienesque trappings that usually accompanies it. I'd like to see games with more focused premises, allowing for deeper exploration of roles. Eg: I want to see how a shinobi only party from sengoku jidai operates, or how a firefighter team from central New York does it, or how the noble companions of Charlemagne operated during their conquests, etc. No cookie-cutted "mage, thiefs or fighters" here, I would like roles that explore the actual ones that existed in the period, or a approximation of that for gaming purposes.

Sure, there are games that do it - Invisible comes to mind with its theme of stealth-oriented heists, as does Jagged Alliance and Expedition Conquistador. But I wish we had, by this time, a much wider gamut of themes and roles other than ye olde medievalesque fighter-mage-thief party raiding underground grotos. And with that, new and more theme/role coherent systems in place instead of ye olde level-stat-skills.
 
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Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Interesting, but that's sort of the problem with Wasteland 2

The characters you recruit in WL2 actually have some differentiation and the ones you make can, too, although they don’t give you much reason to make them different. I think the real problem was that inXile didn’t put much thought into the encounter design and the combat didn’t encourage you to diversify your fighters. There’s just not that much point in having different combat specializations when a sniper or two and a bunch of assault rifles will always get the job done. Maybe one or two guys with melee just for fun.


I'd like to see games with more focused premises, allowing for deeper exploration of roles. Eg: I want to see how a shinobi only party from sengoku jidai operates, or how a firefighter team from central New York does it, or how the noble companions of Charlemagne operated during their conquests, etc. No cookie-cutted "mage, thiefs or fighters" here, I would like roles that explore the actual ones that existed in the period, or a approximation of that for gaming purposes.

I see the appeal here but Jason is right; the trouble with this is that all your guys have the same skill set. Charlemagne’s comes are all Germanic warrior aristocrats with the same training, so how does Roland play any different from Oliver or Ogier the Dane? The system would need to find a new way to introduce a lot more complexity.

Wasn’t there a recent shinobi game, shadow tactics?
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Wasn’t there a recent shinobi game, shadow tactics?
Yes, and it's pretty good. But Shadow Tactics is just a real-time tactics game, I wish to see the concept used on a RPG context.

Kyl Von Kull said:
I see the appeal here but Jason is right; the trouble with this is that all your guys have the same skill set. Charlemagne’s comes are all Germanic warrior aristocrats with the same training, so how does Roland play any different from Oliver or Ogier the Dane? The system would need to find a new way to introduce a lot more complexity.
I don't think having the same skill set is a problem. Jagged Alliance 2, while not a pure RPG, manages to differentiate characters enough with the same skills base. So does Invisible Inc. Each character in these games feels unique and useful in it's own ways.

This will sound weird, but an RPG that almost does it right is Planescape Torment. The game's central themes of Identity, beliefs, etc. are clear and permeate most of it's gameplay through dialogues, exploration and quests, making it this idyossincratic and surreal experience about "What can change the nature of a man?" and "What is the nature of a man in the first place?". But then in combat it turns into this awkward D&D mini-game of "rogue-fighter-mages" that feels ass-pulled and disconected. If they also made combat funcionality an extension of that core themes the game would be much more coherent. Then you would have Morte as the "Charismatic demon swindler" instead of "fighter", Anna the "Proud, smart but insecure orphan" instead of thief, etc and the mechanical capabilities extending from those values. Notice the game already does it in part, through some NPCs special abilities like Morte Litany of Curses or Dakkon Sword abilities, that you unlock through "dialogue quests", but in the end it's a kinda timid attempt that just adds up to this eschizoprenic feeling that the game combat don't really meshes with the rest.

And that is a direction a supposed Charlemagne game could go, making the characters differentiate not only by martial qualities, but also their virtues and personality traits. How does a passionate paladin fights? How about a honored but troubled one? And a pious one? Damn, there is this tabletop RPG called Pendragon that already does it, and if it works in the tabletop environment (I've played it a couple times and our characters felt unique enough), I don't see how this couldn't work for the electronic form. But I digress. There is a lot of ways to implement this concept.

TL;DR: the more diverse each role in a party-based game, the more generic the ending experience tends to be, both thematic and mechanically. You will never have a great game of infiltration if the infiltrator has to share the spotlight with a fighter, a mage and a druid.
 
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Unwanted

Sweeper

Unwanted
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
2,394
A raving fuckwit who spammed my profile with roundabout accusations of being an alt and then arrogantly engaged in a discussion about me being an alt with his friend on my profile page as if it was his own personal chat room
Welcome to my life.
You niggers are lucky I believe in freedom of speech, otherwise half of you would end up in my iggy bin.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,573
A raving fuckwit who spammed my profile with roundabout accusations of being an alt and then arrogantly engaged in a discussion about me being an alt with his friend on my profile page as if it was his own personal chat room
Welcome to my life.
You niggers are lucky I believe in freedom of speech, otherwise half of you would end up in my iggy bin.
That is not upholding freedom of speech. That is just being a masochist :D
 

The Jester

Cipher
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
1,489
A raving fuckwit who spammed my profile with roundabout accusations of being an alt and then arrogantly engaged in a discussion about me being an alt with his friend on my profile page as if it was his own personal chat room
Welcome to my life.
You niggers are lucky I believe in freedom of speech, otherwise half of you would end up in my iggy bin.
That is not upholding freedom of speech. That is just being a masochist :D
Iggy bin is for blue hair safe spacers.
 

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