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Epiphany about the nature of RPGs

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vivec

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So your basic argument is that theres too little shit to do outside combat? If so I can agree wi that mostly, said for ages that classes need to stop being purely combat builds. In my opinion though its devs not making worlds well simulated enough thats problem, all you've got is maps to clear, talking, as well as collecting and recycling trash loot. No imagination, no ambition, no detail and an audience who cheer em on for delivering less and less.

Exactly. To the point. The strength of an RPG is its content and integration of the skill system/abilities into that content. You prepare the charm monster spell and have silent casting? It comes up in dialogue if it available. You actually used the track feature to follow the monster? You find a hidden path to its lair. Did you kick down the door to the bandit hideout? Good job! Now everyone knows you are here. Have you "detect undead"? The magistrate is a vampire disguised as a human.
 

Neanderthal

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Why would you take BG2 as the epitome of AD&D implenmentation? There are no skills, the world is unchanging and lifeless, and there are very few ways of interacting with the world other than through combat. Even the robust spell system is gutted of almost all the classic spells that allow you to interact with the world.
By AD&D I mean 2nd edition, where the p&p way to handle skills was either to roll the skill's corresponding attribute as needed (i.e. CON for a swimming check) or to just say that your character has whatever skills and knowledges that you have. By epitome I mean that compared to the Gold Box games, it created a true rpg world within that rule system. I'm not comparing it to 3E rules games like NWN/ NWN2/ ToEE, which have explicit p&p skill rules.

I don't think you need classes or skills, just a well simulated world and methods of interacting with it by some means, whether that be attributes, skills, profession, alignment, prior knowledge found in game etc. It doesn't matter the method, just so long as the interaction is there and we have the ability to approach the game through some means other than combat. Look at Underworld and the Ultimas, interactivity was off the chart, and it used different approaches in almost every game.

I still remember using a pole the first time in Underworld to press distant objects I couldn't reach, finally a game implementing the pole 10' item that was a staple of AD&D inventory, now that was an epitome of interactivity.

I don't think you get my point. My whole point is that you do need classes, and when you have a system where skills replace character class, that system is fundamentally flawed. Your character in a RPG isn't a generic avatar like in a FPS. It's a role that through which to experience a story based on literature and history.

Why does D&D have a priest class? Because Western literature has Gods, and people who interact with the divine, whether it's Moshe, Jesus, Muhammed, Daniel, David, John the Baptist, Noah, Cassandra, Archbishop Turpin, etc. Literature defines that role. Same with Rogues- Robin Hood, Odysseus, Jean Valjean, Edmund Dantes, etc...

When FASA created Shadowrun, they certainly didn't need to make both Mages and Shamans, but they did since they understood that these class roles are central to RPGs.

That's really always been the flaw with GURPS. GURPS didn't understand that classes are central to RPGs. So while it's true that you don't need to have classes to have a good open-world game, classless rpgs miss the entire point of rpgs. On a certain level, New Vegas might as well be GTA V or Assassin's Creed. And actually both GTA and Assassin's Creed provide you with a character to play as just like Twitcher. Modern RPG design philoophy which allow you to customize your character as you want and have no class system to restrict and structure your character progression (like Wasteland 2) miss the entire point of RPGs. Open world interaction is nice but that's not the essence of RPGs. GTA V and Assassin's Creed do open world interaction just fine. Nor is customization the point of RPGs. The point of RPGs is experiencing a game from a role, i.e. class.


There are skills in both 1st (Wilderness and Dungeoneers Survival Guides) and 2nd edition (PHB.) Pool of Radiance has a lot of interactivity and simulation that BG doesn't even attempt, Phlan is an extremely well realised setting.

I get your point, I just don't think it's valid. You can craft a character and a role without a class quite easily. You are what you do.
 

Sigourn

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This applies perfectly as well to FO1, I recommend you play it if you still haven't.

Mmmm... Sort of, I guess? You are a Vault Dweller and everyone treats you like one, but Vault Dweller is not as much of an occupation ("role") as opposed to being a courier. It is more of a background.

Put this way: when you are a Courier, it makes sense you do a lot of the things you do in New Vegas. When you are a Thief, it makes sense that you do the things you do in Thief: The Dark Project. But when you are a Vault Dweller, there's no reasoning behind doing anything you are doing in Fallout, aside from "it's your specific quest to help Vault 13".
 

Jason Liang

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Again, the class vs. classless character system is a pertinent but side issue.

The main issue is still this:
a) Skills have become more and more significant to the gameplay of modern RPG design philosophy, as we desire to design RPGs to be more and more interactive outside of combat

YET

b) Thus far the skill system implemented in every modern RPG has ranged for embarrassing to shit. Name one post-NWN RPG where the skill system is actually cool and not a retarded detriment.
 
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Neanderthal

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Skill systems aren't becoming more significant in game design i'd say, folk don't want interactivity outside of combat.

Core design: Talk, kill, loot, repeat until boss talk, kill, loot. Credits.
 

Grauken

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Skills for lock-picking or in dialogues are nice too, but overall, yeah, its still mainly combat

Designing for non-combat skills is often not worth it, as you have to design stuff most folks won't see and many just don't want to do

That said, you have lots of specialized games that do other stuff just as well as combat, like stealth, but often these aren't exactly RPGs
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm a Californian stuck in the middle of China in a snowstorm. I have no fucking clue what to do. My door and windows are iced shut, I can't even leave my house. At least I have the toilet as a water supply.

The door is iced shut, eh?

My advice: role play! Specifically, try role playing as someone who’s not a disgrace to his ancestors (no offense). Pretend you’re the PLA at Chosin Reservoir in Korea, or the PLA against KMT in the ‘47 winter offensive. You think those brave commie bastards let a little ice stop them? Don’t let your western decadence defeat you.

If the door opens out, just slam into it repeatedly—easy strength check. If the door opens in, you’re going to have to work harder at it, but the ice will break as long as you’re persistent. It’s not that complicated. Worst case scenario you can take the hinges off.
 

Cael

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There is nothing wrong with a Fallout style classless system. A classless system is basically a class system without the labels.

The main thing is to have MEANINGFUL opportunity costs for whatever path you wish to focus on. In Fallout, there isn't really any opportunity costs at all because despite having a cap of, say, 300, there is really no reason to go above 100. Therefore, you can spread your skill points around without any meaningful drawbacks.

This is something that 3.x does rather well in many ways. There are classes, but your character is not stuck to one class. You can become a fighter and a mage but with reduced efficiency in both. You end up with something that is not "fighter class" nor "mage class".

Classes are just labels. A classeless system takes away those labels, but at the end of the day, what the labels represent is still there.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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So your basic argument is that theres too little shit to do outside combat? If so I can agree wi that mostly, said for ages that classes need to stop being purely combat builds. In my opinion though its devs not making worlds well simulated enough thats problem, all you've got is maps to clear, talking, as well as collecting and recycling trash loot. No imagination, no ambition, no detail and an audience who cheer em on for delivering less and less.

Exactly. To the point. The strength of an RPG is its content and integration of the skill system/abilities into that content. You prepare the charm monster spell and have silent casting? It comes up in dialogue if it available. You actually used the track feature to follow the monster? You find a hidden path to its lair. Did you kick down the door to the bandit hideout? Good job! Now everyone knows you are here. Have you "detect undead"? The magistrate is a vampire disguised as a human.

I'll not forget playing Swordflight for NWN and having my character walking around and finding content in certain houses because he had a high Detect Evil skill. And Tracking to discover which type of enemies are in the region, thus giving you a chance to prepare ahead of time. And so much more can be done here.

The issue in all of this I think comes down to money. If money was not the largest and most dominant part of the equation, we'd see more stuff like this. But until complex, earth-shattering CRPGs can be made easily with zero budget, we're going to be playing NWN modules or one-man-development niche RPGs (which is fine, I'm just saying.)
 

NotAGolfer

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One point he did make in favor of classes is that they help building a more detailed story around them instead of the usual blank slate hero character.
So it can help to give the main character or most important party members a class that's relevant for the game's plot. See Twitcher with its obligatory skills revolving around monster hunting. Doesn't mean that it has to be less of a roleplaying game with C&C and all that nice stuff, just limit these choices a little so the class stays believable enough to not destroy story development or suspension of disbelief. Playing a mage that is investigating some old arcane artifacts and the legends around them? Better force him to know at least a few spells and use them in key situations, don't let the player decide that he wants to do a "no magic" run.

Can't really make heads or tails of the rest of his ramblings though. Except for the obvious stuff that it of course would be nice to have interesting game mechanics that don't feel old and overly familiar.
Looking forward to that Furry Truce game btw, when is that coming out again?
 

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I want a blank slate character in RPGs. I don't want to role-play a Witcher, unless it's a class that I have chosen in character creation. So yes, something like The Witcher allows devs to tightly script and weave the narrative around that single class, but it's still that, a single class. I want choices and options, and then lots of interactivity based on skills and stats of my character, class, race, etc..

Recognition of my created character in the game world, basically. Scripted narrative is secondary, there should be more "emergent" narrative and gameplay with heavy use of imagination encouraged and even required.
 
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I'm a Californian stuck in the middle of China in a snowstorm. I have no fucking clue what to do. My door and windows are iced shut, I can't even leave my house. At least I have the toilet as a water supply.
if this situation you are in goes on long enough are u just going to slowly die while posting more RPG deep thoughts?
 

Brancaleone

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I'm a Californian stuck in the middle of China in a snowstorm. I have no fucking clue what to do. My door and windows are iced shut, I can't even leave my house. At least I have the toilet as a water supply.
if this situation you are in goes on long enough are u just going to slowly die while posting more RPG deep thoughts?
Please, no. We need a rescue team ASAP.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
I want a blank slate character in RPGs. I don't want to role-play a Witcher, unless it's a class that I have chosen in character creation. So yes, something like The Witcher allows devs to tightly script and weave the narrative around that single class, but it's still that, a single class. I want choices and options, and then lots of interactivity based on skills and stats of my character, class, race, etc..

Recognition of my created character in the game world, basically. Scripted narrative is secondary, there should be more "emergent" narrative and gameplay with heavy use of imagination encouraged and even required.
Congrats, you sound like a true Codexer now.
Lately I started to distance myself from all that though, because I believe that it encourages designers to be lazy so they throw in a lot of more or less balanced features and call it a day.
That attitude that you can't enjoy a story someone else created with all its restrictions and the decisions he made beforehand needs to go away. Every game needs context. And every RPG needs rules. Rules by their nature set restrictions to what you can do unless you go the modded Skyrim route and just try to simulate every fucking thing. Then I'd call you an imbecile though. Or a DraQ alt:M
And within these restrictions there are still no limits to craft nice and interesting RPG mechanics. So for example even though Geralt's class is set and there are a few skills that are preset that doesn't mean that they couldn't have written an elaborate TB RPG ruleset with lots of different skills and C&C. They didn't though, they went for the bigger action adventure audience instead.
I can appreciate original and well-developed stories with interesting characters and suspense and dramatization and twists an all that storytelling 101 stuff that most of us don't know shit about. Better than making up my own inadequate power fantasy. The sad thing is that there aren't that many good writers working in this industry though so currently less story focus indeed makes for a better game way too often.
 
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Doktor Best

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What if it wasnt an epiphany but a stroke? Go visit a doctor. Tell him of your recent findings. Have him check you up.
 
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vivec

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Seriously, guys class is a red herring. It is the worst system to come out of RPG design aside from the idea of a "level". What should instead exist is options to specialize. For example, at the start, you can choose a set of background "feats" that determine roughly where you come from, such as magical training, martial training, higher education, profession etc. From them, you create a tree spanning a lot of feats that explore which paths you can take based on these feats. No stupid classes and "class features" which only pigeon-hole you in a role. You can be a soldier and then learn the priestly craft on the side to become a battle cleric. You can be a "rogue" (wtf. This is the stupidest class in existence) and learn healing arts to become battle medic etc.
 

AdolfSatan

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But when you are a Vault Dweller, there's no reasoning behind doing anything you are doing in Fallout, aside from "it's your specific quest to help Vault 13".
But that's my point, you do being FO1 as a sort of fetch-boy, but the most important part is that nobody's forcing you to take any of the alternative paths; if you want to pretend you're a man with a well-set role and a defined mission, no-one is stopping you, you can roleplay it like that.

Therein lies the grace I think, it's up to you to decide why you were sent out there. You can always imagine that the overseer picked you because you were caught one too many times with your hands in other people's properties and he figured your thieving skills would be useful. After that it's completely up to you whether you maintain that persona or break it at the first sight of inconvenience.

If you want games that tell you what to roleplay as, then it's a matter of tastes, but calling it a design flaw when games do not shoehorn you into a class comes across as lazy.

If the door opens out, just slam into it repeatedly—easy strength check. If the door opens in, you’re going to have to work harder at it, but the ice will break as long as you’re persistent. It’s not that complicated. Worst case scenario you can take the hinges off.
He could also use salt or hot water, but I know nothing about China, perhaps they haven't discovered fire yet over there or he hasn't the required intelligence to pass the skillchecks.
 
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Sigourn

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But that's my point, you do being FO1 as a sort of fetch-boy, but the most important part is that nobody's forcing you to take any of the alternative paths; if you want to pretend you're a man with a well-set role and a defined mission, no-one is stopping you, you can roleplay it like that.

Oh, I get it now. Makes enough sense for me.
 

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I want a blank slate character in RPGs. I don't want to role-play a Witcher, unless it's a class that I have chosen in character creation. So yes, something like The Witcher allows devs to tightly script and weave the narrative around that single class, but it's still that, a single class. I want choices and options, and then lots of interactivity based on skills and stats of my character, class, race, etc..

Recognition of my created character in the game world, basically. Scripted narrative is secondary, there should be more "emergent" narrative and gameplay with heavy use of imagination encouraged and even required.
Congrats, you sound like a true Codexer now.
Lately I started to distance myself from all that though, because I believe that it encourages designers to be lazy so they throw in a lot of more or less balanced features and call it a day.
That attitude that you can't enjoy a story someone else created with all its restrictions and the decisions he made beforehand needs to go away. Every game needs context. And every RPG needs rules. Rules by their nature set restrictions to what you can do unless you go the modded Skyrim route and just try to simulate every fucking thing. Then I'd call you an imbecile though. Or a DraQ alt:M
And within these restrictions there are still no limits to craft nice and interesting RPG mechanics. So for example even though Geralt's class is set and there are a few skills that are preset that doesn't mean that they couldn't have written an elaborate TB RPG ruleset with lots of different skills and C&C. They didn't though, they went for the bigger action adventure audience instead.
I can appreciate original and well-developed stories with interesting characters and suspense and dramatization and twists an all that storytelling 101 stuff that most of us don't know shit about. Better than making up my own inadequate power fantasy. The sad thing is that there aren't that many good writers working in this industry though so currently less story focus indeed makes for a better game way too often.

Every RPG now is about story though. I want more gameplay stuff like the classic D&D games. I'm in favor of restrictions, classes and meaningful rulesets. That's why I'm still playing Baldur's, NWN, ToEE, etc. today, as well as newer RPGs like Lords of Xulima, etc.. I'm just not in favor of roleplaying dudes with their own stories. I'll put up with it if it's a game like ELEX with a high challenge level and meaningful RPG elements, but Witcher-type stuff to me is boring.

I'm fine with well-written stories and characters, but I'm just more inclined to play the classics which let me create my own dude than go through a very story-heavy, cutscene-heavy RPG. That's just me.
 

Jason Liang

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Those of you who don't understand what is fundamentally wrong with a classless character system (or a weak class system like Pillars) don't understand RPGs, just like these modern RPG designers. If you go back and read my original premise, I explain it as best I can. Class provides a role which defines a character's relationship with the story and the world. Without a class the character is just a generic avatar (and not The Avatar as in Ultima!), which misses the whole point of RPGs and the unique way with which RPGs entertain and present stories.

I don't mean every game should be like Twitcher. I also want RPGs where you can choose your characters' classes from several options. But again RPGs need to have systems that define each character's role in the story and world, the most significant of which is class, but which also can include race, alignment, gender, age, etc... A RPG needs to provide these systems and have the experience of the game change to reflect this. A great example is Bloodlines, where your vampire's clan serves as their class. One of the coolest aspects of Bloodlines is that the world reacts to you entirely different if you are Malkavian or Nosferatu or Tremere or Gangrel. That's the essential element of roleplaying, and Bloodlines is one of the best examples of how to implement that.

But like I put in the premise, the key issue - the epiphany - is NOT the class vs. classless system issue. Class vs. classless systems is a classic RPG controversy that goes all the way back to GURPS. I clearly see now that the key issue is the growing emphasis on skill system in RPG design philosophy, and how that is the actual cause of the decline in the quality of RPGs in the past 5-10 years. The reason why RPGs made in the past 5-10 years are worse than the RPGs made pre-NWN is due to a flaw in modern RPG design philosophy, which is to give greater emphasis to skill systems, and even more atrocious, to create games where skill systems completely replace class systems. The classic and greatest RPGs - BG2: EE, PST: EE, Pool of Radiance, Wizardry - didn't use skill systems like the ones now. Even Fallout 1 and 2, which have skill systems, don't make the skill system integral to gameplay - hence you can increase your skills basically for free by reading magazines. But even this early skill system is retarded if you think about it. It encourages dumb min-maxing tactics like "don't tag electronics" or "tag small arms" or "don't tag small arms" or "tag small arms and then mutate it" or whatever. That's the bigger issue.

But take for example Age of Decadence. Age of Decadence had a lot of innovative systems, but it's skill system and it's gameplay emphasis on passing skill checks nearly ruins the game completely. It encourages the player to either play by "banking" skill points until they need to burn them to pass a check, or else to use a spoiler and "metagame" their character around the skill checks. That isn't role-playing and it isn't fun gaming either. Bloodlines also has skills and skill checks and suffers from the same stupid design.

In fact I can't think of a single post-NWN RPG where gameplay emphasis on skills and skill checks make the game more fun. RPG designers have yet to solve the problem of how to implement skills in a system that isn't detrimental to the gaming experience. Yet games keep coming out with more and more emphasis on skills and skill checks. That's the issue.

RPGs where the skill system is primary to gameplay (like Wasteland 2) are fundamentally flawed. Skill systems should be at best secondary to gameplay, not primary. Modern RPG designers are making their games worse by making skills primary to gameplay.

Every skill system used in RPGs that I can think of from the past 10 years has been retarded, and makes their game more retarded as well.
 
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vivec

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So tell me exactly how a classless system can't provide for a role?

Also, blackguards implements a shallow i.e. not enough options skill system really well. The skill system is tied to the game content. If you provide content that matches the skill system you can make any combination meaningful.

Your example of aod or vmtb is particularly dumb btw. The solution isn't a class but rather providing multiple routes and limited skill points so each build does things differently and not providing a build that can do *all* things.
 

Jason Liang

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Imagine if BG2: EE had a stupid skill system like Pillars, where you had to manage and balance the skill progression for every character of your party every time you level up. Sounds fun, right?
 
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vivec

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Actually it does. Character creation and customization vis selection of feats and skills is generally considered a core feature of RPGs.

I see your problem now. You are trying to define a good RPG as a game that does things like BG/2.

I suggest playing table tops as a medicine.
 

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