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Eternal Crusade (WH40K MMO)

Mangoose

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Mangoose said:
They don't, because:
Tacticals Marines are identical to Traitor Marines in every aspect except for horns...The Nurgle class does not have extra abilities. It has more health. That is the only "ability" it has.


so besides 'horns' there are some quantitative differences, the very same we have been talking about all along, noting when you now say:


I can repeat this ad nauseum if you want.


you have since changed from "every aspect" to "same abilities", and I've tried to avoid prolonging any further conversation that is only going to exacerbate needless misunderstandings
That's because Tactical Marines are the name of a specific class. Traitor Marines are the name of a specific class. The Nurgle class actually has the specific name, "Traitor Assault."

I mean this was kinda implied when I married Tactical to Traitor, Assault to Raptor, and Devastator to Havoc...

Now out of pedanticism, the support class mirrors are:

Ground Assault (Stormshield) - Traitor Assault (Nurgle)
Apothecary - Sorcerer

So:

Tactical Marines are identical to Traitor Marines

Traitor Marines are NOT identical to Traitor Assaults
(and Tactical Marines are also not identical to Traitor Assaults)

---

there are other points relevant to this discussion, although I've also decided to limit those, but for the sake of offering a peaceful gesture it has appeared (from my limited perspective) to me that you are susceptible to stress having a catalytic effect (which is fine, stress can be 'good' for some of us if properly managed), and this may account for tunnel-like vision and awareness, perhaps behaving (increasingly) erratically during times of experiencing stress, whilst this is a complex phenomenon in its own right I would suggest including a reasonable amount of olives, which are also very complementary with cheese and can serve numerous other health benefits

olives ideally should be a part of any Western (modern) diet, at least every so often, and the usual supermarket variety is as good as any other, they are also make for very simple but sincere gifts to give to parents and friends since it is a meaningful gesture that can significantly assist personal health and well-being in a number of ways (please remember to include olives every so often)
Saw hidden insult while skimming. Thanks though.
 
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So the melta gun is pretty nice... and the optimization this patch brought is even more welcome. I kind of wish that lag wasn't an issue but... it is what it is for now.

Good patch, all in all.
 

Mangoose

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So the melta gun is pretty nice... and the optimization this patch brought is even more welcome. I kind of wish that lag wasn't an issue but... it is what it is for now.

Good patch, all in all.
Cool, I haven't tested it yet. Optimization is super nice, subjectively, because I have fucking AMD chipset and CPU.

Funny thing is I already have dealt with keybinds with my G13 and autohotkey for my mouse.
 

Mangoose

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I hope they fix the reaaally open lane on that one map. Set up a Predator and it basically makes infantry unable to move from capture point to capture point via ground.
 

Mangoose

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- Fixed a bug that increased the force of a heavy weapon melee attack if it hit characters in the back.
WHAT THE FUCK. Man it was awesome to fucking one hit backstab enemies with a fully powered combat knife.

- If you're boosting with a Jump Pack character and you press the melee button while close to the ground, you'll now perform an Evade Attack instead of an Air Charge. In the future we will adjust the ground-target to make this clearer.
Interesting.

- Adjusted the guarding checks for the Stormshield, so that explosions that happen between the player and shield will properly damage the player.
Yay, now my Pred can actually kill Ground Assault running perpendicularly, LOL.

- Tweaked the surfaces that you can wall-cling to, as a Jump Packer. This was done to prevent clinging onto capture points and similar objects.
Not even sure how to do wall-clinging. Do you guys know?

Melta gun:
  • Technically the Meltagun does no damage itself, instead it adds the Heat ailment to a target.
  • Heat does little damage at first, and a huge amount of damage when built up. Thus it is more efficient to use a boltgun against standard infantry.
Thank fucking god, the Meltagun was so OP in Space Marine.

- A “Mute All” feature has been added to the Settings menu. Silence those Heretics and/or Loyalists who just don’t know when to shut it :D
Which would be me. I wish people would voice chat more, though. It makes things fun.

Welp, wish there were more changes, but the changes themselves are good.
 
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TedNugent

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Now I shall actually be serious and pedantic about table top rules.

  • Eldar speed comes from vehicles, not units. What happens is that because transports move fast and that you can strike on deployment, you can cover a lot of ground and then drop your units quicker across a larger ground.
    • That does not mean the infantry itself are terribly faster than in tabletop. Infantry simply have Fleet, which means they are less hindered by terrain.
(Okay, all of this is from 5th edition)

Um, in 7th edition, all Eldar infantry have Fleet and battle focus.

Fleet lets you reroll one die on any run or charge roll, which is D6" and 2D6" respectively.

Battle focus lets you run and shoot in the same turn, in the order of your choosing, e.g. run and then shoot, or shoot and then run.

This allows basic infantry to move 6", shoot an 18" weapon, then roll a re-rollable D6 and add that to their movement range. So you could kite infantry by staying just outside of charge range, or just outside of their maximum shooting range by shooting and then running every turn to keep a margin of distance.

Also, swooping hawks move 18" now and they have fleet and battle focus, and Eldar Jetbikes can turbo boost 36 fucking inches, plus move after they shoot or deep strike.
 

Mangoose

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Now I shall actually be serious and pedantic about table top rules.

  • Eldar speed comes from vehicles, not units. What happens is that because transports move fast and that you can strike on deployment, you can cover a lot of ground and then drop your units quicker across a larger ground.
    • That does not mean the infantry itself are terribly faster than in tabletop. Infantry simply have Fleet, which means they are less hindered by terrain.
(Okay, all of this is from 5th edition)

Um, in 7th edition, all Eldar infantry have Fleet and battle focus.

Fleet lets you reroll one die on any run or charge roll, which is D6" and 2D6" respectively.

Battle focus lets you run and shoot in the same turn, in the order of your choosing, e.g. run and then shoot, or shoot and then run.

This allows basic infantry to move 6", shoot an 18" weapon, then roll a re-rollable D6 and add that to their movement range. So you could kite infantry by staying just outside of charge range, or just outside of their maximum shooting range by shooting and then running every turn to keep a margin of distance.

Also, swooping hawks move 18" now and they have fleet and battle focus, and Eldar Jetbikes can turbo boost 36 fucking inches, plus move after they shoot or deep strike.
Damn.

Was cooler when Dire Avengers could pop out of their transport and shuriken spam.

So are Dark Eldar even faster now? I mean they were the epitome of glass cannons.
 

TedNugent

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No, I don't think Dark Eldar got any faster. I think they actually fell on the power ladder overall while their movement remained about the same. Assault has really been crippled in 7th ed.

Eldar really shot ahead in 6th edition tournament rankings such that the phrase "Taudar" entered into the lexicon.

But yeah, Eldar are really fast. There's still some debate over whether they're truly dominant as far as tournament lists, but there was a lot of hair catching fire when the codex launched. They have heavy infantry units that can fire miniature Destroyer (basically apocalypse) weapons.

Now, albeit, I do think you're right that they're probably going to end up being class-mirrors of the Space Marine class archetypes - infantry, jump, assault and support. They may have some differences, like for instance ground assault - they really have no analog for this in their book. I can't see them having a ground assault class because there is nothing like it in the codex.

What I'm actually interested in seeing is the Ork ground assault - Meganobz preease.
 

Mangoose

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No, I don't think Dark Eldar got any faster. I think they actually fell on the power ladder overall while their movement remained about the same. Assault has really been crippled in 7th ed.

Eldar really shot ahead in 6th edition tournament rankings such that the phrase "Taudar" entered into the lexicon.

But yeah, Eldar are really fast. There's still some debate over whether they're truly dominant as far as tournament lists, but there was a lot of hair catching fire when the codex launched. They have heavy infantry units that can fire miniature Destroyer (basically apocalypse) weapons.

Now, albeit, I do think you're right that they're probably going to end up being class-mirrors of the Space Marine class archetypes - infantry, jump, assault and support. They may have some differences, like for instance ground assault - they really have no analog for this in their book. I can't see them having a ground assault class because there is nothing like it in the codex.

What I'm actually interested in seeing is the Ork ground assault - Meganobz preease.
That's quite interesting about Eldar. Back "in the day" they were able to things like that, but only if their Exarchs(Sergeant?) or Farseer cast a spell.

And yes, "Tau" is what exactly I thought of when I read what you read earlier. Haha.

It seems like they lessened the specialist and magic aspect in return for a general "Elf-y" feel for all their units. For example, Striking Scorpions would have the advantage of combining sneaking (scouting), 6"(?) mandible shots, and decent toe-to-toe melee. Banshees I can understand having fleet and charge bonuses. Dire Avengers would become powerful from their Autarch/Sergeant's one turn spells. Warp Spiders would be able to ignore walls, terrains, etc. and then do a good amount of alpha damage in a 12"(?) range. Dark Reapers were just... pretty damn powerful especially with their Exarch spells and IIRC they didn't have any speed bonuses. Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears sucked, lol.

But anyway any speed and other bonuses Eldar used to come from spells, from their Farseers/Autarchs commanders, and the Exarchs/Sergeants of each unit.

I guess they changed all of that to make it easier for new players to not get confused that the Eldar did not play like the typical Elves they expected.

---

Eldar "Ground Assault" brainstorming... Striking Scorpion Exarch?

Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons all have heavier plate armour for improved protection when compared to Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees and Swooping Hawks, each one needing the extra manoeuvrability lost when using heavier armour.

...

While the extra weights means Scorpions are not as swift as their Howling Banshee sisters,[3a] the protection they provide is such that even Bolters are virtually useless against them, requiring concentrated fire from multiple weapons in order to bring down Striking Scorpions.[4]
BTW ^ that is reading for faggots who think Eldar = speedy fragile weeaboos.

Well, I mean before 6th and 7th edition ;_;

---

Meganobz are more like Terminator equivalents aren't they? Mm, will be nice when those heavy armored generalist types come in (some time after release). Termies, Wraithguard(? or Wraithguard/Wraithblade hybrid?), Meganobz... and Chaos Termies.

Maybe just Nobz as Ground Assault? They'll probably have Sluggas/Shootas as Tacticals, Rokkit jumpers as Jump Assualt, Lootas for Heavy.

---

BTW I want to be a Death Jester.

---

Also:

No, I don't think Dark Eldar got any faster. I think they actually fell on the power ladder overall while their movement remained about the same. Assault has really been crippled in 7th ed.
Wat. Fucking GW.
 

TedNugent

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Just came up with a Ground assault class for Eldar - Wraithblades. They're T6, S5, WS4, with a 3+ armor save. They're clearly dedicated heavy assault units, like terminators (PS, why is ground assault not just a terminator? huge lost opp).

Eldar psykers are still extremely powerful. They have master level 3 psykers (eldrad is one of very few ML 4), and access to their own psychic discipline table, and they're the one of very few races that can modify their warp charge rolls with a relic.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/08/29/tactica-eldar-seer-council-on-jetbikes/

Warlocks in Guardian squads can generate powers from sanctic daemonology and the eldar disciplines. I looked at the chart, and it doesn't look that amazing, although it's cute in that you can choose to use blessings or debuffs for each spell. Aspect warrior exarchs don't seem to generate spells. I think the big thing is seer council and Farseers with Runes of Fate discipline. The primaris power is basically prescience, the best power or maybe second best from divination, plus they get Doom (reroll wounds) and the biggest one fortune which lets you reroll saving throws and deny the witch. They also get to ignore perils with the ghost helm.
 

Mangoose

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Because they're adding in Termies later, IIRC. 27 ? That's why I mentioned Meganobz for later also.

Well I mean they have to add Terminators. The fanbase would ditch the game if they didn't.

After that they're gonna add the walkers, Dreadnoughts, Wraithlords, etc. Though I'm not sure how they'd do both Deff Dreads and Killa-kans.

Man I almost made an Ork army once* I gave my Killa-Kans sunglasses and shit.

*Well, I almost made a 40k army.. it was low points because of $$ but even then I got too tired of painting. I did make an Infinity "army" (squad) though, and would've done Warmachine if I didn't get tired of gaming.

Infinity was/is great btw. Just need 10-15 models or so. Plays very much like a non-gridless squad combat video game, like Silent Storm or Jagged Alliance (<- which is pretty non-gridless). Weapons have range bands, going into an opponent's FOV will trigger an attack which you can respond to in multiple ways (both can intentionally attack with initiative based on reflex rolls, or you can try to dodge, etc.), different levels of cover, 3-dimensional maps with indoor and outdoor areas. Units have special abilities but it's mild futuristic sci-fi, so some werewolves, some mech-suits (not mechs), invisibility, etc. Only unorthodox thing is you can assign all your 'moves' to one unit. That can be really useful or it can backfire, of course.

So in general, very tactical. And the only tabletop game I've ever played. I honestly would not have stopped playing if not for, as above, I got burnt out and personal stuff came up.

Vaarna_Aarne If you wanna add to my love for Infinity lol.
 
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Mangoose

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On the latest patch, now, they apparently didn't mention that they modified one of the maps. The one I was complaining about with the open lane. Granted, they didn't take away the big open lane, but they added more ways to travel above-ground with good cover, too. Nice tweak, not a huge deal, but I don't believe they mentioned it.

One thing I'm concerned about, actually, is map size. Right now they have Rhinos and Preds, which are fine for the current maps because they're of utility and thus don't require the use of fast speed. But they are adding bikers and speeders, which you can already see in their Pay2Thingie, and those obviously are combat units... With the map sizes right now, I don't see how you'd be able to speed around constantly.

Melta gun is weird and OP right now. The way it works is that it starts out with low damage and then builds up to high damage. Like a very weird version of a flamethrower. But way too effective against infantry mostly because range is too long (granted it won't stand up to a melee unit). Kinda makes the Stormbolter useless. And while it damages armor well, it takes too long. Good chance they'll tweak it though. I should add feedback to the forums.

Oh yeah, they also dropped map population back to 16v16 instead of 20v20 which partly cleverly tricks you into thinking the optimization is really good. I'm joking, here, though, because it really does run much better now compared to when I played back during 16v16. Melee is finally well playable (for me) because of better fps as well as lower frame drop.

In general I feel like they know what they're doing, and they know 40k quite well. Which is actually very ironic because all of their previous games are either super casual console games or iOS/android games, lol. I have a sneaky feeling that Relic employees got into the team (the fact that the Marines play exactly like how they played in Space Marines is a hint for my conspiracy theory). Actually the map design is not terrible at all given I played so many hours of Battlefield Vietnam through 2142. I have seriously no idea how they went from SpongeBob HeroPants to even attempting a "real" game.

What else... Well really they're making moderate modifications rather than big things right now, so I'm actually TLDRing stuff just to thoroughly report on current news. Nothing set in stone so I'm not providing criticism nor praise on the actual game.

---

Well I will comment on this because it makes me :smug:

Now, albeit, I do think you're right that they're probably going to end up being class-mirrors of the Space Marine class archetypes - infantry, jump, assault and support. They may have some differences, like for instance ground assault - they really have no analog for this in their book.
That's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of game design. If the designers are smart, they're going to prioritize balance via mirroring over being faithful to fluff or tabletop. It's completely silly to start out mainly thinking about about making Eldar very different. It'll ruin the game and even the 40k fanboys will hate that manner of designing. And that is why I'm not bothering to read those Eldar preview articles - because that shit is just hype to make people interested. What I will care about are the EXACT MECHANICS implemented in game, because those "fluff differences" are not going to be as significant as previewed.

In fact, right now, I have seen almost no complaints about mechanics that do not represent fluff/tabletop. All complaints are about making the game play well.

And that's how it should be. We - even fanboys - want a good game first and foremost.
 
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Swooping hawks are going to be interesting on the Eldar side... mostly because unlike the Ork, CSM and CS forces, they use long-range laser cannons and medium range fast-firing laser guns. That ought to be interesting.
 
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I guess teleportation wouldn't be that difficult to add... a short range jump to the side, forward or backwards, increasing in length by how long you hold down space bar. I doubt they'll add it though, cool as it would be.
 

Mangoose

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I guess teleportation wouldn't be that difficult to add... a short range jump to the side, forward or backwards, increasing in length by how long you hold down space bar. I doubt they'll add it though, cool as it would be.
Yeah, that's probably wayyy too much maneuverability.

---
Anyways I finally read the Eldar article and it looks like I was on spot with the classes :smug:

Notice that they don't have jump melee, which means Eldar has less melee maneuverability :smug:

Also Swooping Hawks most likely are going to be "slower" because they'll need to stay in the air longer to shoot (because you're not gonna hit shit if you're just in the air for half a second), which means easier pickins with my Stalker, as it's pretty much impossible to do more than glance off a jumping Assault Marine. Thus Eldar air troops have less maneuverability :smug:

---

On the serious side, Swooping Hawks probably will have good ranged foot capability also, as Assault Marines use their jump to travel from point to point, not just to lay an immediate smackdown.

So it looks like the main difference with the Eldar will be that they limit their melee to foot troops whereas the Marines limit their ranged to foot troops.

Their Ground Assault will also probably be "opposites" of the tanky Marine footmen in that they'll either be glass cannons (Howling Banshees) or what might be limited cloaking for Striking Scorpions a la Planetside/Battlefield 2142. So Howling Banshees actually might be an analogue to Assault Marines, where both probably use alpha striking for benefits. However, they'll also be "opposites" in that Banshees are better off using their "alpha strike" indoors whereas Assaults are better off using theirs outdoors.

---

So I reckon Eldar will more-so be "opposite-maneuverable" than being the entire race being more maneuverable, with Dire Avengers being as equal to the Tacticals as possible. If that makes any sense.

Also, Striking Scorpions will be cool if their Mandiblasters do more damage than Bolt Pistols.
 
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Well that's the nature of warhammer: You have to sift through the space marine stuff to get to the gunk that you like. Daemonifuge wasn't bad though.
 

Mangoose

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Best one is when they're piloting "fighters."

Deff Skwadron is the best.

Actually Stereotypical Villain 27 TedNugent are you guys playing Alpha much? We should group up. Currently I hunt down joining clan squads like crazy.

I play a lot but mostly dick around soloing and sniping because nobody plays as a team, or even an organized squad. Or even go after capture points strategically (I mean, c'mon, one person capture or interrupt the point while the rest keep him protected/distract the enemy. But nope, I'm the only guy that ever ninjas points like that) Or they'll just fight one-on-one in god knows where to pump their e-peens. It's a class based game,

And then there are people that complain and what to take friendly fire out of the game :roll: Is it not obvious that shooting into a melee is going to result in friendly fire? (Or at least use bursts/single shot) Unless you're as awesome as me and use my Stalker to assist my teammate in melee from afar with a bit of plinking.

Me and another guy were fighting a two-man team of Melta Tactical and Assault Marine, they were nuts to fight against. No idea if they were communicating verbally, but they coordinated for sure. And it's quite fun to fight as Nurgle (well, post-patch) vs. a good Assault Marine who knows how to use his jump pack indoors. Congratulated a lot of folks for good melee fights, which included some Tactical on Tactical knife fights.

I feel like knife might be a bit too "powerful" though. Not in terms of damage but in terms of having a rather long reach. And I'm the one using the knife a lot so this is coming from someone who one-hits people decently with a powered heavy knife attack (as I usually play Tactical). It seems like the main benefits of the "true" melee weapons are their stronger fast attacks, and their wider arc allowing them to sometimes smack a clustered group indoors, which I did once. Again I'm critiquing from my usage of the weapons... as I am too busy concentrating on the fight to notice what the enemy is doing.

I'm not sure about the Clang system. In terms of being an actual direct damage component... at least right now it seems every weapon is equal to others in terms of Clanging (I mean, it was intended that stronger/heavier weapons would win a clang, right?). But Knife on Chainsword will Clang, Chainsword on Power stuff will Clang.

On the other hand, it's actually a nice way to deter people from spamming fast attack at each other. I may clang once or twice and then do a defensive bash. Or I might roll and if they continue their fast attack too long I can power up a heavy attack <- of course if they are reactive enough to end their fast attack spam then they can dodge away. Had a few nice battles with circling and the such.

Bad nonsequitor: The speed of the units (and the indoor areas) don't really allow for much circle strafing, with dodge-rolling being the "replacement." And hopefully Dire Avengers are not going to be circle strafers because that will (A) be an annoyance to balance and (B) goddamn it I don't want to play Eldar - give me some Chaos specialists.

On one hand I miss circle strafing yet on the other hand I don't. The former is because I used to play Quake 3 a lot, which obviously is fast and all about out-maneuvering the opponent simply with WASD. For the latter, I don't miss it, because I played so much Battlefield that positioning, surprise, initiative, etc. mattered a lot more. I kinda wish Marines could move a bit faster side to side, but it's not a huge deal because the game works fine right now, with a good amount of ways to outsmart the enemy in terms of being where the enemy doesn't not expect (the maps are quite well done with that).

---

BTW what do you guys think, in terms of balance/quality/design, about the mechanics of the Apothecary vs the mechanics of the Sorcerer? I ask because I feel like that level of difference in classes will be the baseline level of difference in "unique" factional classes. I also ask because I never play either. Is the main difference something like Apoths can instantly res but must be in melee, but Sorcs res slower but can do it from range? I'm considering their ranged abilities to be "equal" in terms of utility now that the Apoth has a Bolter.

---

Completely off topic but man I wish weapons had more recoil and less spread. Because recoil gives one a more predictable path of bullet path, which is greatly useful for bursts (a la the typical aim at torso, bullet hits torso, second goes higher, and third should land around a headshot). But it's so annoying right now to see everybody spray and pray with Bolters. I can understand that with Stormbolters but that's not how a regular assault rifle should be. That being said, that's also why I said less spread, since (in my idea) recoil would be more of an issue than spread.

I mean honestly I rarely see headshots. It's all about spamming at the enemy's torso and it's so fucking annoying. Any good soldier ain't gonna do that.

I'm sorry, but I really hate spray and pray with anything but a Storm Bolter. If they're gonna keep that shit, then they better put in a shotgun so I can pick off those faggots.

---

Also, I'm getting better at sticking melta bombs on people, and it's fuuuuucking hilarious. My Stalker/Melta is so useful because it'll smack vehicles (in two hits, so hopefully there's a supply crate nearby), I can shoot from afar, and if anyone wants to melee they either get a sticky bomb or I use my (OP reach) Combat Knife skills. Actually I've also learned/realized to use the Stalker unscoped in close range, it's rather nice - never thought it would be useful in that way. It may not always kill, but it's a great way for assisting.

And goddamn it I wish people would assist instead of one-on-oneing.
 
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