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Europa Universalis IV

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by dbx, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    Admin isn't so important early on because you're exclusively forming states, not territories, so annexing vassals is exploited instead. I like innovative --> influence --> administrative for the best mix of present and future growth. And 2200 dev by 1620 is only bad if you started out as France or Ottomans or something, but who wants to do that? Might as well pick Ming. Or Mughals. ;)

    Quantity starts to get good when you can use it as bulk mass to "threaten war" across every charter company you bought, or to become a military hegemony early if you run out of rivals too soon, but early on nah.

    And reducing mana costs by 7% is great if the cost is slightly delaying conquering 2% of the world's development. The context of mana is what matters, not just bean counting, but innovativeness naively helps the most with the latter too.
     
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  2. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    For reference Florryworry did a WC three mountains on VH speedrun (measured in IRL time) where he did in fact just sit on speed 5 doing nothing until absolutism after he conquered Ming. According to you this should be the best way to use innovativeness. Major spoilers ahead:

    Show Spoiler
    He went Admin->Diplomatic->Humanist->Offensive because you didn't need quantity back then since mercs were OP. You absolutely need quantity nowadays to conquer shit well. Threaten war is nigh useless, I don't think you've really played EU4 have you?


    No, reducing mana cost earns you literally nothing if admin mana isn't your bottleneck on conquest. Which it isn't late game.

    Even if it was, the solution is to do some of the tag switches that can earn you multiple permanent +5% admin efficiency bonuses. Because Admin Efficiency is just better. Admin Efficiency lets you annex more total land in a war and stay under 100% OE, while -coring cost lets you both core land cheaper AND faster (meaning less time before you can annex more land). And both of those modifiers are bigger than innovativeness's discount.

    Just go here and form the nations that give permanent +admin efficiency and aren't end-game tags, then form mughals https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Overextension#Administrative_efficiency
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  3. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    Threaten war is the best way to chip away at the HRE without slamming into the hardest coalition wall in the game. And before nationalism, using charter company is how you spread out in the world, and threaten war in those areas is basically free real estate when the opportunity presents itself. The highest developed province I took with threaten war had 50 development, some place in Bohemia. It's easily worth over 1000 free development over a game. And it doesn't require nearly as much muscle as you think if you manage your vassals well. Threatening war for vassal core provinces while warring for exclusive provinces is straight based play.

    Innovative is worth using until it isn't, and then switching to religion later when the blog gets going is best. And I don't see why humanism is so good when quantity gives you plenty of manpower to stomp all the rebels you need to. It's good after religion, yeah, when you can combine religion, humanism, military hegemony, and trade company use to virtually eliminate rebellions in that late game sprint.

    And yes I know it's silly to avoid tag switching abuse when on a world conquest but such is my honor. :obviously:
     
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  4. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Should be ignored and let it be a back thingy. It builds up throughout the game and by absolutism,most of the time it ends up around 80-100. Innovation group is pretty shit,i never use it,most of the bonuses are pretty shit and fluff. The best opening is always admin ideas then fallowed by dip/aristocratic depending on the country you play.

    Is pretty good player and chill dude,but he plays very cheesy and it gets old after some time. His WCs always end up with a shitty rebel spammed country.
     
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  5. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    Threaten war gives +50% AE, so it's actually the worst way to chip away at anywhere without a coalition. You also can't see who will coalition you after you do it, so unless you are some savant neo who can read the code you'll have no idea if you are going to have half the HRE coalition you as soon as you do it.

    There's no reason to use religious later on, you have nationalism and imperialism CBs. If you aren't taking religious in the first 3 or 4 idea groups there's practically no point. Humanism practically stops all rebellions as soon as you finish it, and since you don't really need to go past the first 2 ideas of admin you can take it right after admin without much trouble. Of course, quantity is good, but running 30k stack around the world to stop rebellions while also wanting those 30k stacks to use in wars gets computationally complex.

    Listen, I've seen this several times before. "innovation is good, look at my long-term mana-based argument and this youtube video" is practically the mating call for players who have theory crafted a lot without actually playing it out.
     
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  6. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    Context matters though. That extra AE is worth accepting if it means softening them up for 40-50 years before jumping in. It ultimately helps spread out AE.

    Religious can be delayed if you aim for Mecca, Jerusalem, etc early on, but later on it becomes necessary. The point is stopping "separatist sentiment" rebellions and you need all the unrest reduction you can get for that. Religious first, then humanism once you go from regular 150+ overextension to 250+ or worse.

    And the governing capacity bonus of admin is boss sauce.
     
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  7. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    HRE is literally pussies, if you can demand their provinces you can effortlessly kill them and take more for less AE. If you want to dismantle the HRE over time with less AE then you want to vassalize and feed them vassal cores anyway.

    At no time do you need religious. Not taking humanist as your first or second admin idea group is just stupid.
     
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  8. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
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    religious is pretty mandatory if you want the 1001 provinces achievement. other than that, please don't scoff at the guilty pleasure of being able to go allahuackbar on heathens.
    i haven't played eu4 in... let me check... holy crap 3 years and a half! has it improved in the meantime?
    oh, yes, noob question i always forget to ask: about giving land to clergy, nobles and that other stuff, you know what i mean. does it make any difference what i give to whom? do they give a bonus or stuff or is it fine to just randomly give this and that to satisfy the minimum percentage and be done with it?
     
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  9. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    Saving strength to wrestle with the great powers makes more sense because HRE is so easy to trim down over time without war, but it's not a cakewalk like Africa or America. They're a perfect fit for using war threats, and Italy usually is too.

    Missionary strength is the one thing I am always thirsty for, more than money or manpower or mana. It's the Big M. There are simply so many provinces to convert and the payoff is so great that I don't see how religious ideas aren't always top tier. You can delay the idea group if you always roll with an inquisitor, enforced unity of faith, beelining key provinces, releasing the right vassals for conversions, etc, but at some point it's just begging to be picked. And it offers some very nice policies...

    Humanist is a late game policy when you want lots of unrest reduction to offset lots of overextension, and calming down massive aggressive expansion. It's just not needed before nationalism.
     
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  10. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    You don't need to convert anything at all in a WC. 3 tolerance = 100% unity.

    Literally everyone who is doing lots of conquest will tell you that humanist is a top tier idea group. Find me a single person who isn't using it.
     
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  11. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    You need a conversion and assignment to a trade company (or culture conversion/acceptance) to shut down rebellions for good, and with more overextension you need wine, incense, policies, a theologian, etc. That +15 unrest from separatist sentiment and 300% rebel progression is just brutal on top of the overextension penalty.
     
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  12. Zariusz Learned

    Zariusz
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    • nice nice x 1
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  13. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    Glorious will Silesia be. :obviously:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Hopefully I can maintain my Emperorship, push for the decentralized imperial reform path and maintain the Catholic faith throughout the Empire (+ integrate the Papacy as an electorate).
     
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    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
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