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Incline European Commission: Games with in-app purchases shouldn't be labeled "free"

hiver

Guest
The problem is not free-to-play games or labeling them as such, the problem is misleading players into spending money by tapping into credit card data stored on the device and then offering vague messages about purchases. Tons of apps on smartphones and tablets purposely try to hide purchases and integrate them into normal behaviour so if you are not reading closely you end up buying something unwittingly.

There is a big difference between a free-to-play game with a cash shop and a free-to-play game that says "click here to revive!" without telling the player this costs money, or a game with gameplay-affecting purchases vs. one which has only cosmetic purchases like skins. In my opinion this commission does not really take that into account correctly or fairly.
Fairly? Out of thousands of such "games" how many are actually free - to play?
As in, not just free to start - but to actually play ?

And what exactly will be unfair if all these games stop using "free" - when they are not free?
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Fairly? Out of thousands of such "games" how many are actually free - to play?
As in, not just free to start - but to actually play ?

And what exactly will be unfair if all these games stop using "free" - when they are not free?
Most of the ones actually worth playing/ones that are popular have completely inoffensive business models.
 

hiver

Guest
Then they should be called inoffensive business model games, ey?
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
If we're being completely fair here, consumers are part of the problem. Nearly everyone has a cell phone (or tablet) these days, and while not everyone plays games on their phones, many do. There are mobile "gamers" from all social strata.

This huge group of consumers is almost entirely unwilling to pay a sticker price for any mobile game. A buck or two, perhaps, but free is better. Kids and teens in particular drive this phenomenon, but plenty of adults do, too.

'Course in my opinion, the monocled thing to do is to step away and let this enormous herd of retards make do with Tetris and Solitaire, and either find a different career, or develop games for PC and consoles (still better than mobile). But there is a demand for mobile games, so I can't really begrudge developers for filling it. Even so, ludicrous and shady free-to-play schemes aren't necessary to succeed.
 

Abelian

Somebody's Alt
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,289
While some of the blame is on consumers, I think they've been conditioned by expect free content. Similar to a tax breaks and online news, people get used to it and don't want to pay for something they can now get free.

Another factor is the low quality of many browser games or apps. I'm quoting a thread by HHR relating to mobile apps:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2014/02/app-pocalypse-now.html
Jeff Atwood said:
Have you ever noticed that the people complaining about apps that cost $3.99 are the same people dropping five bucks on a cup of fancy coffee without batting an eyelash? Me too, and I'm with the coffee people. $3.99 for your app? Outraaageous!

Now, contrast this with your app, Mr. Developer. I don’t know you from Adam. You’re pitching digital Instant Refresher Juice 1.0 to me in the form of a new app. The return I’m going to get is questionable at best. I already have 30 apps on my phone, some of them very good. Do I need another one? I don’t use the 30 I have. The experience I’m going to get from adding one more app is not trustable. I’m assured of nothing. Last week I bought an app for 99 cents and it was terrible. I used it once, for 15 seconds. I could be shoving $1 straight down the toilet again for all I know. Your app, good sir, is a total gamble. Sure, it’s only a $1 gamble… but it’s a gamble and that fact matters more than any price you might place on it.
For some reason I don't completely understand, mobile app review systems are frequently of questionable value, so all you really have to go on are the screenshots and a bit of text provided by the developer.

Imagine you bought your coffee, only to open the lid and find it was only half full, or that it wasn't coffee at all but lemonade. If only 1 in 5 cups of coffee you bought actually contained coffee, a $3.99 price for that coffee starts to seem unreasonably high. When you buy an app, you don't really know what you're going to get.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
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Messages
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While some of the blame is on consumers, I think they've been conditioned by expect free content. Similar to a tax breaks and online news, people get used to it and don't want to pay for something they can now get free.

How can someone be conditioned to expect something for free? Nothing is for free it has always to be paid for somehow, If I get a free coffe in my local bakery after one month of a cup on the way to work I paid for that shit. Its not free every day I buy one and its actually a few cents cheaper then advertised, theese cnts will go to my mandatory free end of the month cup. When someone builds me a game or an app or whatever and i get that without paying for it the programmer has to sustain himself somehow, somebody has to be paying for it somehow.

Im all for advertising costs as they arise, meaning tell your customer hes about to be paying for something with his credit card info he has stored somewhere, everything else is fraud, or whatever you might call it in lawspeak. But as long as the decision is up to him theres no one at fault but him. Normally people should make mistakes and learn from them or beeing intelligent enough to not make them in the first place, if you make one mistake over and over again you need help, and this kind of help should be received from family and doctors and not from a new law about labels.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
While some of the blame is on consumers, I think they've been conditioned by expect free content. Similar to a tax breaks and online news, people get used to it and don't want to pay for something they can now get free.

How can someone be conditioned to expect something for free? Nothing is for free it has always to be paid for somehow, If I get a free coffe in my local bakery after one month of a cup on the way to work I paid for that shit. Its not free every day I buy one and its actually a few cents cheaper then advertised, theese cnts will go to my mandatory free end of the month cup. When someone builds me a game or an app or whatever and i get that without paying for it the programmer has to sustain himself somehow, somebody has to be paying for it somehow.

I don't even... You don't understand where the perception that software can be free comes from? This web browser you're using to post, have you paid for it? Even better, go into your installed programs list and count how many of them you've gotten for free. Whether it's some organization paying for development, or the authors doing it in their own free time, the end result is that it's free for end users.
 

Abelian

Somebody's Alt
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,289
While some of the blame is on consumers, I think they've been conditioned by expect free content. Similar to a tax breaks and online news, people get used to it and don't want to pay for something they can now get free.

How can someone be conditioned to expect something for free? Nothing is for free it has always to be paid for somehow, If I get a free coffe in my local bakery after one month of a cup on the way to work I paid for that shit. Its not free every day I buy one and its actually a few cents cheaper then advertised, theese cnts will go to my mandatory free end of the month cup. When someone builds me a game or an app or whatever and i get that without paying for it the programmer has to sustain himself somehow, somebody has to be paying for it somehow.

Im all for advertising costs as they arise, meaning tell your customer hes about to be paying for something with his credit card info he has stored somewhere, everything else is fraud, or whatever you might call it in lawspeak. But as long as the decision is up to him theres no one at fault but him. Normally people should make mistakes and learn from them or beeing intelligent enough to not make them in the first place, if you make one mistake over and over again you need help, and this kind of help should be received from family and doctors and not from a new law about labels.
I'm well aware of the concept "there ain't nosuch thing as a free lunch." I addressed this in an earlier post on this page, where I stated that the paying customers subsidize the ones who don't way.

All I said is that people who are getting something at no cost to themselves have a tendency to complain when they have to shoulder some of the costs.

When's the last time you paid to read the news? There are still newspapers around, but that's because they either provide premium content not found in the online edition, or they were bought by someone with a lot of money.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
I don't even... You don't understand where the perception that software can be free comes from? This web browser you're using to post, have you paid for it? Even better, go into your installed programs list and count how many of them you've gotten for free. Whether it's some organization paying for development, or the authors doing it in their own free time, the end result is that it's free for end users.

Of course I understand where it comes from, what I dont understand, or better what i dont want to understand, is the idea of a customer unaware that everything has to be paid for somehow and doesnt make the effort to look how exactly and if it could bite him in the ass.

I'm well aware of the concept "there ain't nosuch thing as a free lunch." I addressed this in an earlier post on this page, where I stated that the paying customers subsidize the ones who don't way.

All I said is that people who are getting something at no cost to themselves have a tendency to complain when they have to shoulder some of the costs.

When's the last time you paid to read the news? There are still newspapers around, but that's because they either provide premium content not found in the online edition, or they were bought by someone with a lot of money.



I know but I still fault theese people for not seeing that it is not the same for them, in case of games, if its for free. Its cant be the same quality or same amount of content etc. I think people who dont see the no free lunch thing dont have to be protected when they get milked one way or another. well except shadowy purchases they arent aware of.

they should have the choice and if they do pay for something out of their own will let them.

I dont really care for a new label for theese games the problem I have is that for every fucking thing there has to be new labels and laws now because we cant expect adults to make their own decisions even if the decision is bad.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
I dont really care for a new label for theese games the problem I have is that for every fucking thing there has to be new labels and laws now because we cant expect adults to make their own decisions even if the decision is bad.

That's because for every fucking thing there's a gaggle of fuckbags eager to invent new ways to take advantage of people. The victims aren't the reason we can't have nice things, so to speak. Blame the assholes who're out to get them.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
That's because for every fucking thing there's a gaggle of fuckbags eager to invent new ways to take advantage of people. The victims aren't the reason we can't have nice things, so to speak. Blame the assholes who're out to get them.

Cant cheat an honest man.
 

Abelian

Somebody's Alt
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,289
That's because for every fucking thing there's a gaggle of fuckbags eager to invent new ways to take advantage of people. The victims aren't the reason we can't have nice things, so to speak. Blame the assholes who're out to get them.

Cant cheat an honest man.
I know that's a well known adage, but even honest people can fall prey to a scam, such as donating to a fake organization thinking it will be used for charity or backing a kickstarter scam.
A confidence artist (or con artist) is an individual, operating alone or in concert with others, who exploits characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté, or greed.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
I know that's a well known adage, but even honest people can fall prey to a scam, such as donating to a fake organization thinking it will be used for charity or backing a kickstarter scam.


yes but thats not the point here, as i said, payments which arent labeled as such should be stopped, but as long as people are informed when and how much they would have to pay it should be fine. Scams are obviously out of the question but I wouldnt call theese f2p games a scam, not even the ones designed to make you pay, since they dont give you false information.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
If we're being completely fair here, consumers are part of the problem. Nearly everyone has a cell phone (or tablet) these days, and while not everyone plays games on their phones, many do. There are mobile "gamers" from all social strata.

This huge group of consumers is almost entirely unwilling to pay a sticker price for any mobile game. A buck or two, perhaps, but free is better. Kids and teens in particular drive this phenomenon, but plenty of adults do, too.

'Course in my opinion, the monocled thing to do is to step away and let this enormous herd of retards make do with Tetris and Solitaire, and either find a different career, or develop games for PC and consoles (still better than mobile). But there is a demand for mobile games, so I can't really begrudge developers for filling it. Even so, ludicrous and shady free-to-play schemes aren't necessary to succeed.
A lot of consumer protection laws are designed to protect consumers from themselves.

"No you can't buy a car with only lap seatbelts because you think they're more comfortable"

"No you can't buy a car without proper crumple zones and made out of cheap steel because it's cheaper"

"No you can't buy meat that hasn't been inspected because it's cheaper"
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Again shitty parents trying to redirect the blame for been shitty parents.

Also the whole thing it pointless and wasteful(as the EU itself) as the games now are doing just what this "Commission" recommend

"The use of the word 'free' (or similar unequivocal terms) as such, and without any appropriate qualifications, should only be allowed for games which are indeed free in their entirety, or in other words which contain no possibility of making in-app purchases, not even on an optional basis,"

Well it's "Free to play" not "Free game",also isn't there already term for it?Freeware?
 
Last edited:

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,329
Perfect markets assume perfectly informed consumers making rational decisions based on that information.

It is beyond me why anyone advocating a market-based system would be against fraud in advertising laws and consumer protection.

Fantastic and ballsy decision by European Commission IMO. We all know how toxic this business model has been to videogames.
dungeon-keeper-mobile-rating.jpg


H.L. Mencken said:
Americans, true enough, enjoy an average of prosperity that is above that witnessed in any other country. Their land, with less labour, yields a greater usufruct than other land; they get more money for their industry; they jingle more coin in their pockets than other peoples. But it is a grievous error to mistake that superior opulence for a sign of money-hunger, for they actually hold money very lightly, and spend a great deal more of it than any other race of men and with far less thought of values. The normal French family, it is often said, could live very comfortably for a week upon what the normal American family wastes in a week. There is, among Americans, not the slightest sign of the unanimous French habit of biting every franc, of calculating the cost of every luxury to five places of decimals, of utilizing every scrap, of sleeping with the bankbook under the pillow. Whatever is showy gets their dollars, whether they need it or not, even whether they can afford it or not. They are, so to speak, constantly on a bust, their eyes alert for chances to get rid of their small change.

Consider, for example, the amazing readiness with which they succumb to the imbecile bait of advertising! An American manufacturer, finding himself with a stock of unsalable goods or encountering otherwise a demand that is less than his production, does not have to look, like his English or German colleague, for foreign dumping grounds. He simply packs his surplus in gaudy packages, sends for an advertising agent, joins an Honest-Advertising club, fills the newspapers and magazines with lying advertisements, and sits down in peace while his countrymen fight their way to his counters. That they will come is almost absolutely sure; no matter how valueless the goods, they will leap to the advertisements; their one desire seems to be to get rid of their money. As a consequence of this almost pathological eagerness, the advertising bill of the American people is greater than that of all other peoples taken together. There is scarcely an article within the range of their desires that does not carry a heavy load of advertising; they actually pay out millions every year to be sold such commonplace necessities as sugar, towels, collars, lead-pencils and corn-meal. The business of thus bamboozling them and picking their pockets enlists thousands and thousands of artists, writers, printers, sign-painters and other such parasites. Their towns are bedaubed with chromatic eye-sores and made hideous with flashing lights; their countryside is polluted; their newspapers and magazines become mere advertising sheets; idiotic slogans and apothegms are invented to enchant them; in some cities they are actually taxed to advertise the local makers of wooden nutmegs. Multitudes of swindlers are naturally induced to adopt advertising as a trade, and some of them make great fortunes at it. Like all other men who live by their wits, they regard themselves as superior fellows, and every year they hold great conventions, bore each other with learned papers upon the psychology of their victims, speak of one another as men of genius, have themselves photographed by the photographers of newspapers eager to curry favour with them, denounce the government for not spending the public funds for advertising, and summon United States Senators, eminent chautauquans and distinguished vaudeville stars to entertain them. For all this the plain people pay the bill, and never a protest comes out of them.
 

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