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Game News Expeditions: Rome Dev Diary #5 - Metagame: Legion Battles

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by Infinitron, Aug 3, 2021.

  1. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Tags: Expeditions: Rome; Logic Artists; THQ Nordic

    The fifth developer diary for Expeditions: Rome is not about the game's soundtrack as promised, but instead about a rather more interesting topic. The metagame strategy layer is a defining element of the Expeditions series, but in Rome it will take a far more active role with the player character in command of a full-sized legion. In order to gain resources and upgrade your camp, you will need to capture regions of the world map. For this purpose, Logic Artists have implemented a simple army combat system in which you select formations and other high-level strategic maneuvers over the course of a battle.

    As we showed in our story diary, Expeditions: Rome casts you – the player – as the legatus of a legion of Rome. Our foremost priority in designing the campaigns of Rome was to make you feel like you have an army at your fingertips, and to make that army feel useful and necessary. When we set out, we immediately ran into a certain important tension: as the game is fundamentally a party-based RPG, most of the gameplay will revolve around your own group of a dozen Romans meeting new people, engaging in diplomatic talks or investigating plot points, and getting into skirmishes on that small-party scale. A lot of the worldmap gameplay of previous Expeditions games has centered around resource management and survival mechanics, but when you have a legion of 6000 men at your beck and call, what difficulty is there in feeding and otherwise supplying a dozen more people?

    To solve this, we have redesigned the survival aspects of Expeditions: Rome dramatically. When you return to the worldmap, you will see not just your own party represented by your character on horseback, but also your legion – typically garrisoned at a fortified camp. You can and will often visit this camp to manage the affairs of the legion as well as the status of your own party. It is here you can recruit new praetorians for your group, treat those who have been injured in combat, craft new equipment for yourself and your praetorians, and even leave behind a praetorian to rest and recuperate at the baths if their morale has fallen too low. Our aim has been for the camp to feel like a place of resources and opportunities, where you visit when you want to do something, not a chore that you have to perform at regular intervals just to survive the game.

    All facilities of the legion camp can be upgraded, which changes the appearance of buildings or entire sections of the command area, but to do that you must secure the necessary resources. Fortunately, unlike previous Expeditions games, the legion is not just a narrative element in Expeditions: Rome. This time around, you can deploy it to missions all across the parts of the worldmap under your control.

    The worldmap of each campaign is divided into regions. When you control a region, you unlock the ability to build farms, tanneries, iron mines, or lumber yards, which grant you resources needed to upgrade your legion’s camp. We are not building a 4X game here, so the underlying mechanics are straight-forward and easy to understand: Sending your legion on a mission takes a certain amount of in-game time, and has a cost, for example in denarii (salary) or manpower (casualties). Missions also have a difficulty rating that results in a success probability based on the current strength of your legion. If a mission is succeeded, you gain the resources you were promised.

    Capturing a new region is where things get a little more complex. You deploy your legion to capture an enemy outpost just as you would send it to perform any other task – however, when the legion reaches its destination, a battle begins. First, you must select which centurion should lead this battle – your legion can have up to 4 centurions which are recruited from the same pool as your personal praetorian guard. The character class of each centurion, as well as any perks they might have to improve their suitability to command, determines the likely outcome: the probability of success, the expected loss of manpower, how much loot you can expect to get out of it, and the probability that the centurion himself will survive the battle.

    Next, you select what formation your legion should deploy in. Formations are a type of stratagem, which are randomly made available to you from your strategic pool to represent the unpredictable nature of war. Once you’ve decided how to deploy the legion, the battle is on, and you can follow along as the armies are arrayed against each other and clash. At certain intervals, new decisions pop up, asking you to choose new stratagems for the different phases of battle. If you find yourself unhappy with your options, next time you’re visiting your legion’s camp, you can build a workshop and develop new stratagems to add to your pool. As the game progresses and your workshop is upgraded, you will even be able to upgrade your existing stratagems with better outcomes.

    This legion battle system is our way to represent large-scale warfare in a game that is otherwise mainly focused on elite small-unit tactical combat. Our challenge has been to make a simple system with enough depth to stay fresh and interesting throughout the course of a 40-hour RPG, and which ties into the other systems of the game so it doesn’t feel too isolated from the rest of the experience.

    This system is one of the areas of the game that we are most focused on expanding and improving as we get closer to finishing Expeditions: Rome. During testing, we have found that there seems to be clear dominant strategies, and that certain choices that do have valid uses don’t feel as useful as they really are – perhaps because their effects are too long-term or too abstract compared to other strategies. Often these problems are easy to solve by adding new mechanics to the system, but the ideal solution would be to address it within the scope of the current feature set, since every new mechanic we add must be supported by UI and tutorialization, which can quickly clutter the interface and overwhelm the player.

    Another problem we’re working to solve is how to give the player more ways to affect a battle ahead of time. Going up against a much stronger army can feel like a slog right now, as you throw your legion against them, suffering repeated defeats to whittle down their strength. Though this is in many ways accurate to the Roman republic’s historical approach to warfare (refuse all offers of peace, and instead keep throwing lives at a problem until the enemy is worn out), it isn’t a particularly fun way to win. We want you to have many options to improve your success chance or reduce the enemy strength before you even begin the battle. We’d love to hear what you think we should do to solve this in the comments of this DevDiary – as mentioned, this area of the game is getting a lot of attention right now, and we can always draw inspiration from your suggestions and requests!

    Winning a legion battle isn’t the end of conquering a territory. There are always loose ends to tie up – pockets of resistance to exterminate; local aristocrats, tribes, or clans with whom to forge new alliances; or prisoners of war to rescue. Sometimes you can send your legion to handle these things, other times you must send one of your companions in charge of your praetorian guard. A conquered region is pacified only once the loose ends have been dealt with, and then you can safely redeploy your legion to another region without losing control again.
    According to the update, this is just one example of Rome's many meta layer systems, which also include field triage, crafting, praetorian mutiny and recruitment. Logic Artists aren't ready to say what the next dev diary will be about, but there'll be a devstream about this one on August 5th.
     
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  2. Tyranicon A Memory of Eternity Developer

    Tyranicon
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    The problem with any game that puts the player in a very important social position, such as a legate, is that you should always be traveling with a sizable bodyguard force. A typical legate should not be accustomed to fighting pitched small scale battles with his personal bodyguard, especially when most tasks can be assigned to other members of staff.

    I would've much preferred the game to revolve around a centurion, speculatores or exploratores, perhaps under special orders that grant greater command autonomy than otherwise would be expected.

    But then we wouldn't have the legion mechanic.
     
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  3. gerey Arcane Zionist Agent

    gerey
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    And why do we need a legion mechanic?

    Or, alternatively, why isn't the game built around managing your own legion, engaging in diplomacy with barbarian tribes, hiring auxiliaries, bartering with them for supplies or using subterfuge to make them fight each other to make conquering them easier? Take inspiration from Caesar's campaign in Gaul with all the crazy shit that went down and make the player be a Caesar-expy.

    Basically Fields of Glory or Total War focused on a single legion, with RPG choices and consequences, resource management, etc.

    Instead of fighting with your party, combat is on the army level, you can go around camp and interact with your men after the march - solving disputes, meting out punishment and rewards, promoting officers etc. - basically shaping the legion into what you want it to be, or you could even have detours to explore locations where taking the whole legion would be impractical, so you either send a detachment or tag along to investigate things personally - just so the whole game isn't an overhead map or the legion camp and there's a tad more variety to the proceedings.

    Instead we get this garbage.
     
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  4. karoliner Magister

    karoliner
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    I don't care about all the legion stuff. I just want to play a party turn based rpg like the first 2 games.
     
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  5. Sensuki Arcane Cuck

    Sensuki
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    I dunno if it's 'metagame' but maybe 'minigame'.

    I think the minimum standard to achieve in this area is to not be annoying.
     
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  6. Larianshill Scholar

    Larianshill
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    Because then it would be a strategy game.
     
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  7. Dr Schultz Savant

    Dr Schultz
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    There is this relatively successful Italian P&P RPG called Lex Arcana where players take the role of "custodes", kind of spies/special forces of the Emperor (of course, totally made up).
    As far as I remember it's a nice ruleset, fast and centered around the use of skills (I played only the first edition, though, and have no clue about the quality of the following ones) which allows for both diplomatic and action scenarios to exist without loosing too much consistency. It would be a good match for a CRPG...

    EDIT: https://www.aresgames.eu/27708#:~:text=Lex Arcana is a historical,of the arts of Divination.
     
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  8. dacencora Learned

    dacencora
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    You mean like Expeditions: Conquistador?
     
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  9. Galdred Studio Draconis Patron Developer

    Galdred
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    Something like Birthright could work too, with a tactical and a strategic module, but then, it would add even more complexity (but the RPG part of BR was pretty weak, and totally disconnected from the army part, except that it was the main way to get gear for characters iirc).
    I like the idea of adding RPG elements to FoG2 instead of adding strategic elements to a party based RPG actually.
     
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  10. Unorus Janco Lurker

    Unorus Janco
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    I don't think that's a huge problem, sometimes a proper abstract presentation is enough to not ruin the immersion, just look at Conquistador:

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Crichton Prophet

    Crichton
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    I don't know why this stupid idea keeps cropping back up. This preview sounds like they combined the build-a-village mechanics from the last game with a little bit of pathfinder's "kingdom" bullshit and a touch of that war over the Duchy from Pillars 1. No RPG has ever been or will ever be improved by adding on a "management" layer. The only way forward if they really want the legate experience is something between Mount and Blade and Total Warhammer; totally incompatible with party-based RPG gameplay.
     
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  12. Dr Schultz Savant

    Dr Schultz
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    This is technically true, but Expedition didn't see the light as series of party based RPGs. Conquistador was more of a tactical game with a thin strategic layer and some light RPG elements. Vikings changed this formula and now Rome is changing again, apparently...
     
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  13. Unorus Janco Lurker

    Unorus Janco
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    Fake news, Conquistador was a purebred RPG, its tacticool aspects were only skin deep. Viking changed only due marketing reasons, and because of that it became a worse RPG.
     
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  14. Sensuki Arcane Cuck

    Sensuki
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    I don't think it's worse. It's more straightforward but it's a pretty good straightforward RPG - my favourite of the last few years for sure.
     
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  15. Dr Schultz Savant

    Dr Schultz
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    Except that developers, Steam and Wikipedia seem to think otherwise.

    Our 2nd DevDiary, which focused on our core combat design, should have made it clear that while significant improvements – as well as some clever and risky innovations – have been made in the core combat, our focus there has always been to deliver a solid, challenging, and satisfying take on traditional turn-based combat.

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/237430/Expeditions_Conquistador/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expeditions:_Conquistador

    The first game that came to my mind when I played Conquistador was Jagged Alliance (not for the quality but for the general framework): Different setting, lighter game systems, more C&C but similar structure to one of my favorite games of all time. I didn't played Viking, but as far as I understand THIS was the episode that doubled down on the RPG elements of the first game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
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