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Fallout Fallout 1 is the best RPG of all time that stood the test of time

Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Great combat isnt necessary for being "the best RPG of all time", Fallout basically proved this. JA2 has better combat(in fact the best combat) but still isnt a better RPG than Fallout, why?

Companions arent necessary either so being an afterthought doesnt matter. JA2 has better "companions" and the entire game revolves around them but still its not better RPG than Fallout.

"Great" character system isnt necessary either as JA2 has this better too... Still, its somehow not a better RPG.

JA2 is a better game than Fallout. A much, much, MUCH better game. Fallout is GOAT in RPG genre: JA2 contends for GOAT in gaming itself.

I cant think of any game that does this better, except Arcanum. If it ever got its combat fixed it would dethrone Fallout as Number 1.

Dream on.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Perception check fail?
That was the point, Fallout is the better RPG.
And yes, Arcanum is better than FO1 in quests, because more ways to solve them.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
JA2 doesn't limit itself to being an RPG: the fact you are even comparing JA2 to Fallout in that sphere is testament to its greatness. Where is Fallout's strategy mode? JA2 also has a far superior UI to Fallout's (and Fallout has a great UI).

Thing is, Arcanum has major problems that are not combat-based.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
JA2 doesn't limit itself to being an RPG: the fact you are even comparing JA2 to Fallout in that sphere is testament to its greatness. Where is Fallout's strategy mode? JA2 also has a far superior UI to Fallout's (and Fallout has a great UI).

Thing is, Arcanum has major problems that are not combat-based.

Doesnt limit itself to being an RPG? Maybe thats why its worse(RPG) than Fallout? Point is
Fallout doesnt need strategy mode. A tactical game needs good tactical(TB) combat, a strategy game needs good strategy, an RPG needs... what is an RPG?? Quests? C&C? JA2 doesnt really have any quests and what it does have isnt really affected by your dudes role as much by your(players) tactical and strategic decisions. Not as much as in Fallout in any case, hence FO is the better RPG.
JA2 UI is commendable considering the complexity it deals with... but its not the best and not better than Fallouts. Just sayin
 

Loostreaks

Learned
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Messages
103
It didn't, past the blind nostalgia.

Game's opening is text book example of poor storytelling. Instead of taking time to establish player's place in the world and connection to npcs around him/her, it throws player in: Go save generic npcs or they will all DIE! It fails miserably at both central narrative driving poitns and even piss poor writers from Bethesda knew better.
Writing ranges from bland to poor, often a cartoonish parody of the setting. When you ask for one of the raiders: Why do you attack your former kin? Her response is: They should all be "grateful", they bring "excitement" to their lives! Or how you resolve that hostage situation. There are ample examples of this. Even generic "AAA", like Last of Us, wipe the floor with it, when it comes to consistency (of quality)in storytelling and how they portray setting's main themes.
Not a single well written, compelling npc, not even one of your "companions", devoid of any kind of personality. Even Fallout III had amusing idiots, like Moira or Chinese general. Not a single well written side quest, either.
Choices are also black and white and uncompelling: aid Jabba the Hutt casino owner or an honest, trustworthy Killian? And when you kill the former, people don't even recognize he's gone.
Nonsensical interpretation of the setting, like bottle caps being used as currency. Like with latter games, Fallout never understood if it wants to be a parody ( that even went further with it) or more realistic portrayal of post apocalyptic society.
In dialogue, rpg mechanics are also poorly implemented. If you ask farmer in Shady Sands: Who are you?...the game automatically locks you out of dialogue option that relates to your science skill ( and gives xp).
It is also horribly unbalanced: you can easily max most skills, and you only need three in entirety of the game: Combat skill, speech and lockpick. Simple, linear ( +x%, perk passive bonuses), and unimaginative leveling system/mechanics with poor options, classic example of wide but not deep.
Combat and encounter design is absolute garbage: no depth or tactical skill required, with only a few encounters in the game requiring "strategy": shoot them in the eyes for crits, or limbs to cripple. Only one boss fight in the game, which is trash like the rest and relies on cheap, endless enemy respawn.
Art style and visuals are equally bland, palette typically consists of about three colors: brown, grey and yellow. Compare places from BG II like Ust Nautha to Lego land composition:

boneyard-adytum.png

Reuse of levels, like with Master's vault. Clumsy movement ( npcs constantly being stuck at doorways), and interface. Etc, etc, etc.

Poor story/telling And poor gameplay And poor mechanics And poor presentation.

Only redeeming aspect is it's open quest design that is still one of the better examples in rpg genre ( infilitration of Cathedral, good example).
 
Last edited:

Max Edge

Guest
I don't understand purpose of this discussion. Every children know that Fallout 1&2 are best games ever made. You can believe in flat earth and killing vaccines, but you must understand common knowledge about greatness of Fallouts.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
2,749
Location
Nedderlent
Ok, tired of throwing softballs. My next blog write-up will be how JA2 is a better RPG than Fallout.

Don't think it's not arguable: you will only make a fool of yourself.
finally, sheesh
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
31,475
Where is Fallout's strategy mode?

In other genres where it belongs because a lot of people (like me) don't enjoy that particular kind of strategic gameplay no matter how well it's executed. As I've mentioned, it's a reason why I was able to complete Unfinished Business and Silent Storm, but I never got very far with Jagged Alliance 2 proper.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Where is Fallout's strategy mode?

In other genres where it belongs because a lot of people (like me) don't enjoy that particular kind of strategic gameplay no matter how well it's executed. As I've mentioned, it's a reason why I was able to complete Unfinished Business and Silent Storm, but I never got very far with Jagged Alliance 2 proper.
Well its okay if you dont like it but im pretty sure there is not a "lot of people" who hate JA2 strategy mode. Its basically half the game and why its so good.

Ok, tired of throwing softballs. My next blog write-up will be how JA2 is a better RPG than Fallout.

Don't think it's not arguable: you will only make a fool of yourself.

Maybe you should start with explaining how JA2 is an RPG at all.
It is... But its subservient to the strategic and tactical element. Your personal tactics and strategy decide more than your stats. In FO your stats decide more than in JA plain and simple. Lilura should not attempt to disprove this.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
2,464
an RPG needs... what is an RPG?? Quests? C&C? JA2 doesnt really have any quests and what it does have isnt really affected by your dudes role as much by your(players) tactical and strategic decisions.
Jagged Alliance 2 does have quests and (minor) C&C. There are even speech checks in dialogue, with the leadership skill, gender and other attributes of the merc in question affecting NPC interaction.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
I know but not as much as Fallout.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
23,912
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
an RPG needs... what is an RPG?? Quests? C&C? JA2 doesnt really have any quests and what it does have isnt really affected by your dudes role as much by your(players) tactical and strategic decisions.
Jagged Alliance 2 does have quests and (minor) C&C. There are even speech checks in dialogue, with the leadership skill, gender and other attributes of the merc in question affecting NPC interaction.
Yes but can you join Deidrianna?
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,908
Codex 2012
It didn't, past the blind nostalgia.

Game's opening is text book example of poor storytelling. Instead of taking time to establish player's place in the world and connection to npcs around him/her, it throws player in: Go save generic npcs or they will all DIE! It fails miserably at both central narrative driving poitns and even piss poor writers from Bethesda knew better.
Writing ranges from bland to poor, often a cartoonish parody of the setting. When you ask for one of the raiders: Why do you attack your former kin? Her response is: They should all be "grateful", they bring "excitement" to their lives! Or how you resolve that hostage situation. There are ample examples of this. Even generic "AAA", like Last of Us, wipe the floor with it, when it comes to consistency (of quality)in storytelling and how they portray setting's main themes.
Not a single well written, compelling npc, not even one of your "companions", devoid of any kind of personality. Even Fallout III had amusing idiots, like Moira or Chinese general. Not a single well written side quest, either.
Choices are also black and white and uncompelling: aid Jabba the Hutt casino owner or an honest, trustworthy Killian? And when you kill the former, people don't even recognize he's gone.
Nonsensical interpretation of the setting, like bottle caps being used as currency. Like with latter games, Fallout never understood if it wants to be a parody ( that even went further with it) or more realistic portrayal of post apocalyptic society.
In dialogue, rpg mechanics are also poorly implemented. If you ask farmer in Shady Sands: Who are you?...the game automatically locks you out of dialogue option that relates to your science skill ( and gives xp).
It is also horribly unbalanced: you can easily max most skills, and you only need three in entirety of the game: Combat skill, speech and lockpick. Simple, linear ( +x%, perk passive bonuses), and unimaginative leveling system/mechanics with poor options, classic example of wide but not deep.
Combat and encounter design is absolute garbage: no depth or tactical skill required, with only a few encounters in the game requiring "strategy": shoot them in the eyes for crits, or limbs to cripple. Only one boss fight in the game, which is trash like the rest and relies on cheap, endless enemy respawn.
Art style and visuals are equally bland, palette typically consists of about three colors: brown, grey and yellow. Compare places from BG II like Ust Nautha to Lego land composition:

boneyard-adytum.png

Reuse of levels, like with Master's vault. Clumsy movement ( npcs constantly being stuck at doorways), and interface. Etc, etc, etc.

Poor story/telling And poor gameplay And poor mechanics And poor presentation.

Only redeeming aspect is it's open quest design that is still one of the better examples in rpg genre ( infilitration of Cathedral, good example).
It lost a lot when it lost GURPS. + no budget for properly starting out in the Vault.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
31,475
Well its okay if you dont like it but im pretty sure there is not a "lot of people" who hate JA2 strategy mode. Its basically half the game and why its so good.
Fallout made money. Jagged Alliance 2, as good as it was, did not. My source is dead (http://boards.jaggedalliance.com/in...onement-release/page__view__findpost__p__3430) but I saved the paragraph.

I just thought it was worth pointing out that speeding up the game play and moving to a 3d engine was where we were going with JA3 anyways.... so this evolution (if you want to call it that) would have happened even if the game was left in the original designers hands. We really didn't have much of a choice financially as JA2 sells weren't what we were hoping for despite several awards and high scores. Both "real time" and "3D engines" was what the mass majority wanted. To our defense, however, Ian made it very clear that the game would also have a "Turn based" option that would provide all the depth and more that was available in JA2....Because that's the way he loved it.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
What are you trying to say exactly?
Anyway, that quote is about tactics, not the strategy mode.
 
Last edited:

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
5,478
Lilura Perhaps before a Fallout v JA2 analysis, you could write retrospectives of both games independently. They would be informative for a general audience, and make your comparison analysis easier by referencing the long form review of each game.
 
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