Interview Fargo, Sawyer, McComb and others weigh in on the future of RPGs at Rock Paper Shotgun

[Jenkem]

the future of RPGs:

Copper Dreams
The New World
Disco Elysium
Underrail: Expedition
Pathfinder: Kingmaker
BLACK GEYSER

 

[Roguey]

I disagree with the idea that Tyranny, Deadfire would have sold more if only they had used the AD&D ruleset.

 

[J_C]

I remember when I first started playing torment I wasn't sure about most things that were happening around me until I got to the bar where you find dakkon. In that bar was a planeswalker who is basically just a gigantic bundle of text that tells you about the planes and how they work. Talking to him was kinda confusing at first but once it finally clicked I absolutely devoured anything and everything he said. It was all so interesting and fantastical and magical and everything felt so connecting. It helped me develop a massive love for DnD cosmology that persists to this day.

Planescape: Torment, the game that didn't sell all that well either.

There is being text-heavy and there is being T:ToN. If PS:T with its 800k words didn't sell well, one wonders what Fargo's mindset was when he was screaming from the rooftops how T:ToN exceeded 1.2 million words while it was still in development as if it was something to be proud of.

I remember reading skipping their overly verbose kickstarter updates. It was obvious that they were long as fuck just so the devs can show that they are making a wall of text style RPG, and they thought that these long KS updates were also cool. LOL, I can't believe noone said to them that word count is not the one what matters, it is the story and characters which are written there.

 

[ArchAngel]

I disagree with the idea that Tyranny, Deadfire would have sold more if only they had used the AD&D ruleset.

I don't, it would have had a better combat which would've make the game overall more fun. Less people care about the range of character builds supported by new rules system than just having fun minute to minute gameplay as 90% of players don't play the game more than once. Seems 50% or more don't even finish that one playthrough as well.

 

[Roguey]

I don't, it would have had a better combat which would've make the game overall more fun. Less people care about the range of character builds supported by new rules system than just having fun minute to minute gameplay as 90% of players don't play the game more than once. Seems 50% or more don't even finish that one playthrough as well.

This didn't help Siege of Dragonspear or even Knights of the Chalice (granted, modified 3.5) way back when.

 

[ArchAngel]

I don't, it would have had a better combat which would've make the game overall more fun. Less people care about the range of character builds supported by new rules system than just having fun minute to minute gameplay as 90% of players don't play the game more than once. Seems 50% or more don't even finish that one playthrough as well.

This didn't help Siege of Dragonspear or even Knights of the Chalice (granted, modified 3.5) way back when.

Combat and encounters in SoD were only things people had praises for. KotC is an unknown game made on 80s graphics, you cannot really expect general population to play it en masse.

 

[J_C]

I disagree with the idea that Tyranny, Deadfire would have sold more if only they had used the AD&D ruleset.

I don't, it would have had a better combat which would've make the game overall more fun. Less people care about the range of character builds supported by new rules system than just having fun minute to minute gameplay as 90% of players don't play the game more than once. Seems 50% or more don't even finish that one playthrough as well.

I agree with Roguey here. As hard as it is for the Codex to admit it, for the general RPG player crowd, Pillars 2 is a good game. People here can whine as long as they want, but the story, the gameplay, the setting, the graphics, they are pretty good in the eyes of these people. The critics liked it, a huge portion of the players like it (Steam score), the overall sentiment around the game is positive. Using AD&D might have won a few fans, but I doubt it would make the game sell like hotcake. The failure of Pillars 2 is part marketing related (thanks Versus Evil), and there might be some fatigue in this 2D top down RTwP genre as well. I would also say that 45 dollars was a bit too high as a release price. 35 bucks would have made a lot of difference.

 

[ArchAngel]

I disagree with the idea that Tyranny, Deadfire would have sold more if only they had used the AD&D ruleset.

I don't, it would have had a better combat which would've make the game overall more fun. Less people care about the range of character builds supported by new rules system than just having fun minute to minute gameplay as 90% of players don't play the game more than once. Seems 50% or more don't even finish that one playthrough as well.

I agree with Roguey here. As hard as it is for the Codex to admit it, for the general RPG player crowd, Pillars 2 is a good game. People here can whine as long as they want, but the story, the gameplay, the setting, the graphics, they are pretty good in the eyes of these people. The critics liked it, a huge portion of the players like it (Steam score), the overall sentiment around the game is positive. Using AD&D might have won a few fans, but I doubt it would make the game sell like hotcake. The failure of Pillars 2 is part marketing related (thanks Versus Evil), and there might be some fatigue in this 2D top down RTwP genre as well. I would also say that 45 dollars was a bit too high as a release price. 35 bucks would have made a lot of difference.

You keep telling yourself that. It does not make it right.

 

[Shilandra]

If people are clamoring for a new setting why not do pillars but in space?

Like just have some guy from the deadfire get bullied by his wife's sister so he decides to fuck off from the planet and goes into space. Make the rest of the game about colonizing new worlds and meeting strange new creatures! You even get the choice to bang them if your perception is high enough and you can pass the priest of nasdolgo dialogue checks.

It will be the best game ever and no one will see it coming! Throw in some environmental combat, always online multiplayer and bam! Instant classic that sells 6 gorillion copies.

 

[Chippy]

Form the outside looking in (don't know anything about making games) my biggest gripe with RPGs is that they progress in a linnear fashion with regard to graphics, but not mechanics. The mechanical parts of the game are always stripped according to budget and time as they reinvent the wheel with each game/engine. To be clear; like location damage in Fallout 1&2 compared to how it wasl implemented in W2.
Here they are talking about 'strategical environmental urgency' or whatever the fuck, when Dragon Age: Origins managed that just shy of 10 years ago. Ask me 20 years ago where we would be now and I would have said: "Playing an RPG with everything offered by the IE games flawlessy mashed in with the mechanics of a game like Seven: The Days Long Gone".
But then I'm an entitled fuck.

 

[DeepOcean]

The critics liked it, a huge portion of the players like it (Steam score), the overall sentiment around the game is positive.

Steam score is always positive unless the game is a total dump, people on steam are extremely forgiving, you REALLY need to work hard to make your steam score low. It is a factor on sales because people tend to avoid mixed rated games but it alone doesn't mean much. It is more an indicator if the game is broken than about the quality of the game. Banner Saga 1 and 2 had excellent steam scores and the second one sold like absolute crap anyway.

Using AD&D might have won a few fans, but I doubt it would make the game sell like hotcake.

AAA numbers? Nope. More than 1 million? Certainly. I would be worthy or not depending of the license fees expectations of Hasbro.

and there might be some fatigue in this 2D top down RTwP genre as well.

But Obsidian only released Pillars and Tyranny by this point and most people didn't even play Tyranny, this is an strange fast fatigue. There are only two options here, or isometric RPGs current popularity is based on a fad of people attracted by only nostalgia and those people are forever gone, or the problem is that most people see Obsidian isometric RPG games as boring and without an obvious appeal, the appeal that Bioware managed to count on the past. If it is the first case, then we are doomed and I hope you REALLY like battle royales and multiplayer because it will be that will be shoved on our asses from here to infinity, if it is the second, then it is fixable, Obsidian just need to stop making boring games. Dunno, if they will try, maybe the boredom was so intense that there is no way to attract those customers back and they better develop another setting because this is one is finished.

agree with Roguey here. As hard as it is for the Codex to admit it, for the general RPG player crowd, Pillars 2 is a good game.

One thing most people don't realize is that while it we on the codex are the only ones that truly analyze RPGs on autistic detail and are vocal about it, it is totally possible for a larger group to have a vague sense of a game being boring and without truly knowing why, they don't think enough to know why and they may even post positive steam scores but are they going to buy the next game?

TL;DR: Or we are fucked because nobody gives a shit to RPGs anymore or Obsidian only needs to license DnD instead of going with their half assed shitty fantasy setting.

 

[Infinitron]

The upcoming Pathfinder RPG will help determine whether passed-down-from-tabletop-Olympus D&D rules have some essential quality that translates to being less boring to the buying public.

 

[Fenix]

LOL, I can't believe noone said to them that word count is not the one what matters, it is the story and characters which are written there.

They definitely haven't heard about Chekhov, and I can bet that their favorite literature is long series from 10-20 volumes... poor bastards.

And if CRPGs of the future have fewer words, developers will want “more incisive, entertaining, and direct writing”, with fewer “winding monologues. In at least the immediate future, prose-heavy games are going to [be] much more niche,” he says.

I'm too late to a party, but what that part with "inclusive" does mean?
I have some suspicions though...

 

[Strange Fellow]

 

[Bohrain]

My guess is that not a lot of people wanted more of the same after Pillars 1. I'd say that the sequel is better, but not significantly enough to draw in people who rarely touch RPG's like D:OS2 managed to do or the ones who were generally disillusioned by the quality of the kickstarter nostalgia baits.
The lack of marketing is also a factor. Once we got the so called spiritual sequels to Baldurs Gate and Torment, the hype and the word of mouth factor with it died down, which would make traditional marketing more vital.

 

[Shilandra]

My guess is that not a lot of people wanted more of the same after Pillars 1. I'd say that the sequel is better, but not significantly enough to draw in people who rarely touch RPG's like D:OS2 managed to do or the ones who were generally disillusioned by the quality of the kickstarter nostalgia baits.
The lack of marketing is also a factor. Once we got the so called spiritual sequels to Baldurs Gate and Torment, the hype and the word of mouth factor with it died down, which would make traditional marketing more vital.

What drew people to dos 2 again? I couldn't play more than 2 hours without returning it because the camera kicked my ass. What could be in the game that makes people see past that?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

have some essential quality that translates to being less boring to the buying public.

Well it ain't tainted by sawyerism, for one thing.

 

[StaticSpine]

the future of RPGs:

Copper Dreams
The New World
Disco Elysium
Underrail: Expedition
Pathfinder: Kingmaker
BLACK GEYSER

You forgot Realms Beyond!

 

[Bohrain]

What drew people to dos 2 again? I couldn't play more than 2 hours without returning it because the camera kicked my ass. What could be in the game that makes people see past that?

Personally I wanted D:OS that doesn't have so shitty writing that it makes me drop the game halfway past, which happened with the first one.
For the general audience I'd guess an RPG with multiplayer, environmental gimmicks and certain amount of production value garners attention. The combat system is also pretty deterministic and lacks long unskippable animations, which are dealbreakers for many people.

 

[MajorMace]

You'd have to be missing an extra chromosome to think Siege of Dragonspear is equivalent to a new game. The writing is cringe worthy, it's extremely linear and hardly has any choices in it which actually impact the progression of the story, and a few other things. They also rushed the ending, ruining that as well. It wasn't horrible, but it didn't even come close to Baldur's Gate in anyway. I said make an Infinity Engine game with a new universe, setting, characters, and an EXCELLENT story. SoD was none of those things, so fuck off with these bullshit arguments.

That's the thing though, we don't need another BG game. We've done enough in the BG universe, or at least, in that specific area of it. Make a new setting, a new universe, new characters, etc. That's what I mean by a new game. This is just one type of RPG, but I personally enjoy isometric RPG's more then any other type. If you enjoyed BG, IWD, and PS:T, another Infinity Engine game with excellent writing and a new story/setting would be another gem. If you didn't enjoy those games, then a new IE game wouldn't be targeted towards you.

Yet another bunch of irrelevant comments which boil down to "it's not actually a new game because it sucks".
Fact : There has been a new IE game.
Also fact : no one gave a flying fuck.



ps : Do you even realise how retarded you read. I said make a new IE game, but an AWESOME GIGA EXCELLENT 10/10 ONE, surely people will care then !!1
My, are you sure ?

 

[Black]

One of these days we need to have a mega-sticky that says "IE games were not the pinnacle of RPGs."

 

[ItsChon]

Yet another bunch of irrelevant comments which boil down to "it's not actually a new game because it sucks".

Fair enough. Even if I was to concede that it was the equivalent to a new game, the complaints about it are 100% valid. The reason no one gave a fuck isn't because people aren't interested in I.E games, it's because it was a steaming pile of hot shit. Cause and correlation.

ps : Do you even realise how retarded you read. I said make a new IE game, but an AWESOME GIGA EXCELLENT 10/10 ONE, surely people will care then !!1
My, are you sure ?

That's the thing though, 90% of what makes an "AWESOME GIGA EXCELLENT 10/10" game is the writing. Look at how many people gobbled up PoE for gods sake? Do you really think all that was because of the new engine? Clearly there are plenty of people still interested in isometric CRPG's, and IE is the best system for that.

One of these days we need to have a mega-sticky that says "IE games were not the pinnacle of RPGs."

Sure, but the IE games are the easiest to replicate in a way that would be both fresh and interesting; as well as cater to a more modern market.

 

[Archibald]

What exactly is fresh about them?

 

[Fenix]

Isometric view?

 

[Strange Fellow]

That's the thing though, 90% of what makes an "AWESOME GIGA EXCELLENT 10/10" game is the writing.

Fight me