Felipepepe on the history of the term "CRPG"

[Shinji]

All those images make it harder to read

 

[Infinitron]

Comments on the blog post:

CRPG now meaning “party-based isometric RPG” or “Infinity Engine-like” is good, I agree. Having a more narrow definition means it is actually useful.

“RPG” on the other hand is a term that there is too much disagreements about and too broad to be used.

If I tell someone I am into CRPGs, people (at least younger generations) will assume I am talking about games like Shadowrun, Expeditions Viking, BG3, etc. That makes it a useful term to be used in conversations.

If I tell people I am into RPGs, no one will agree on what kind of game I am talking about, and if people end up agreeing, it is usually an agreement that most games are an RPG, from Far Cry, Skyrim and GTA to Arknights, Fallout shelter and Azur Lane. which means we have agreed on a definition that defines nothing.

Agree completely with the insight that no-one really even needed specific words for a distinction, until diverging approaches to RPGs came to light in a shared console space in the late 2000s. That happens and then people want to talk about it – starting first with enthusiasts on places like forum.rpg.net (where the first indexed post with JRPG on Google is roughly 19 years old on Monday) – using this awkward terminology.

I would guess this is primarily due to different technologies leading to different approaches to the genre.

Personal computers had lots of RAM, processor power, hard drives. That leads to this approach that’s very heavy on sidequest content and on optional content and optional party members, which all gets termed “choices”. Along with a tendency to a pretty weak central narrative (that generally speaking has low forward propulsion and urgency in the game and low emotional impact).

Consoles don’t have that, and instead they have a lot of specialised graphics chips that mean they punch above their cost, when it comes to presentation. That means it makes more sense to evolve along these linear stories with great art that push forward at a fast pace, focused on relationships between a fixed cast of characters.

Each evolves into quite a specialised form that can’t dilute itself, and remains in its own niche. Besides audience expectations; the PC RPGs that emphasise “choices” can’t scale technologically to consoles; the console RPGs just wouldn’t make business sense from a sales perspective to develop around a smaller and mainly Western PC audience (except for in some territories where PCs are the only game in town).

So each continues in its own way until we get to the era when consoles have hard drives. That then means PC RPGs are more properly possible (even if in modified form) on a console. So then more people start to need words to explain what they perceive to be the difference and “Console RPG” stops being a viable way to say that (at this point, all these things are on consoles, after all). So then we get the emergence of the “JRPG” and “CRPG” terms, which oppose each form from each other, and then eventually the new Western console targeted RPGs from what came before on PC.

 

[grimer]

cRPGs - computer games based on TTRPGs and their legacy.

JRPGs - the same but genre mutated into anime

not the same because jrpgs aren't based on ttrpgs at all, they're based on wizardry and ultima. they are second derivatives with a fraction of a fraction of ttrpg essence.

 

[Tyranicon]

cRPGs - computer games based on TTRPGs and their legacy.

JRPGs - the same but genre mutated into anime

not the same because jrpgs aren't based on ttrpgs at all, they're based on wizardry and ultima. they are second derivatives with a fraction of a fraction of ttrpg essence.

Yeah, I agree with you, it's genre mutation.

Key aspects of genre mutation:

1. Cultural Adaptation
When a genre spreads to a new culture, it often mutates to reflect local values, aesthetics, or social realities.

 

[Dark Souls II]

extremely obscure, borderline paedophillic titles

Could you list maybe the top 10, top 20 of these. For research purposes, asking for a friend.

 

[mondblut]

Agree completely with the insight that no-one really even needed specific words for a distinction, until diverging approaches to RPGs came to light in a shared console space in the late 2000s. That happens and then people want to talk about it – starting first with enthusiasts on places like forum.rpg.net (where the first indexed post with JRPG on Google is roughly 19 years old on Monday) – using this awkward terminology.

Clueless noobs gonna clueless noob.

We've already been using "jrpg" as an umbrella term for FF-like crap in 1998, and everyone understood what's that about. Proof: https://groups.google.com/g/fido7.ru.game.rpg/search?q=JRPG

The non-term that "came to light" in a "shared console space" is "WRPG". Which is retarded and doesn't mean shit, because games like Pool of Radiance and Daggerfall have pretty much nothing in common - unlike JRPGs, which are all the same game (ok, two games, the second one being Wizardry 1 with cartoon kiddie porn slapped on top).

 

[Vlajdermen]

Ah, much like everything felipe does, Codex goty poll included, this whole thing is an insidious attempt to legitimize JRPGs. The dead giveaway? Him using WRPG as a term. No one without a weeb agenda uses that term. "History" my ass. Remain vigilant, brothers.

Reminds me of an old quote I stole from someone on the Codex ages ago - comparing an RPG and a JRPG is like comparing a lion and a sea lion. One isn't a lion.

Weebs love using word magic and false history. Fred Patten, the first weeb and the creator of the accusation that the Lion King ripped off an anime, did the same thing.

And here's another dead giveaway: sarcasm and victimy underdog identity.

Like placing fans of rival teams in the same area, this was perfect for an “Us vs. Them” to emerge.

The chad BioWare & Bethesda duo in their peak vs. the virgin Japanese industry in crisis.
Western RPGs vs. Japanese RPGs.
WRPGs vs. JRPGs.

 

[Tyranicon]

The chad BioWare & Bethesda duo

 

[luj1]

Using classic to describe games like Baldur's Gate, Daggerfall, Fallout, Ultima 7, Wizardry makes it not particularly useful. Might as well call them "old rpgs."

But why? They are classics, just like cinema classic

Like I said, you are just trying to legitimize your shit taste since you called Fallout a fluke and Wizardry "not an RPG" (but you like Pillars and other inferior new RPGs)

 

[Roguey]

But why? They are classics, just like cinema classic

When someone says a film is classic that means "it is old and well-regarded" but it doesn't do anything to define it beyond that. There are classic comedies, dramas, thrillers, horror, action, and so on.

 

[luj1]

Definitions tend to change as time passes, generations change and our collective perception evolves. For example, “Ancient Greek” refers to a civilization that would never have identified itself as either “Ancient” or as “Greek”. In English, they were Mycenaeans, Achaeans, Danaans, Argives, Hellenes, etc.

What a fucking moron. How am I expected to read any further after this?

Yup.

This "definitions change" nonsense is classic hipster talk from people coping with bad taste.

It's really no different from gender politics. Someone who is not happy as a woman/man pushes to change definitions.

 

[luj1]

But why? They are classics, just like cinema classics

When someone says a film is classic that means "it is old and well-regarded" but it doesn't do anything to define it beyond that.

If it's well regarded, that means it's good. Cope.

 

[Vlajdermen]

Also classic is not a vague term. You are just trying to justify your poor taste and deconstruct the norms.

Using classic to describe games like Baldur's Gate, Daggerfall, Fallout, Ultima 7, Wizardry makes it not particularly useful. Might as well call them "old rpgs."

Nah, it means old and well-regarded. It is also implied that it is looked up to by modern devs. It's the same as in every medium.

 

[Fedora Master]

Codex is on the internet and the internet loves to get into stupid little pedantic arguements to show off the size of their e-peen/vastly superior taste.

Internet

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Hmmm, interesting, I did not know the entire history of those terms, through I do know many things, like how RPGs used to be called Wargames due to their relation to the original Wargames.

(Reminds me of a time me and some dudes discussed if RPGs existed in the Fallout universe. I think the consensus was that yes, but they likely never stopped being called Wargames, the word "RPG" probably doesn't exist. Also D&D would probably not exist but instead something else in its place - like Tekumel)

He does make an interesting point about the modern-play platform convergence, with pretty much everything nowdays getting console ports - even stuff that would generally only get released on PC, like Turn-Based Isometric RPGs, and vice-versa.

Something to toss into the ring: Games which become so seminal they practically invent a genre. Fuck, I'm old enough to remember the world "Doomclone".
For example... Hack & Slash/Diablolikes... we have all seen the "Is Diablo an RPG or not?" discussions.
UFO/X-COM is another "sui generis" example. Is there even a proper genre definition for X-COM? One could call it "Turn-Based Tactics", but that would ignore the fact that while turn-based tactics is the meat of the game, it also has a real-time strategic/management component. So calling it "X-COMlike" is the closest thing possible.

(there's a similar discussion wherever JA2 is an RPG or not)

Another term oddity: Falloutlikes. An eastern european term for RPGs like/inspired by the original Black Isle Fallouts. Ex: Metalheart: Replicants Rampage, The Fall, etc. It's pretty much an eastern european sub-genre, and most of them were seemingly developed in the 2000s, when games like the OG Fallouts fell in disfavour in the West, yet the franchise continued being HUGE in Eastern Europe.
(this makes me wonder: Are games like Underrail and Age of Decadence modern-day Falloutlikes? One could argue AoD is not, because it was made in Canada, but AFAIK VD is an eastern euro and development started in the 2000s)

 

[Crispy]

By the way, it is "CRPG", not "cRPG".

Anyone who uses the latter is an idiot.

 

[Infinitron]

Another term oddity: Falloutlikes. An eastern european term for RPGs like/inspired by the original Black Isle Fallouts. Ex: Metalheart: Replicants Rampage, The Fall, etc. It's pretty much an eastern european sub-genre, and most of them were seemingly developed in the 2000s, when games like the OG Fallouts fell in disfavour in the West, yet the franchise continued being HUGE in Eastern Europe.
(this makes me wonder: Are games like Underrail and Age of Decadence modern-day Falloutlikes? One could argue AoD is not, because it was made in Canada, but AFAIK VD is an eastern euro and development started in the 2000s)

Crowdfunded indies like ATOM RPG and Encased are the inheritors of the shovelware Fallout-likes of the 2000s.

 

[felipepepe]

An article by a humanities/arts idiot struggling with his grasp on reality. Definitions are context-dependent. So ancient greeks are the correct definition in modern context, same as CRPG is nowadays. It doesn't matter what they called themselves a long time ago, the context has changed.

It's very obvious that you only saw the thumbnail and joined the bandwagon like a little sheep, because that's whole point the article is making: Definitions are context-dependent.

So CRPG as Computer RPG doesn't make sense anymore to a generation growing up with Final Fantasy, Dark Souls and Persona on PCs, that is why the meaning is changing.

 

[luj1]

Definitions are context-dependent

Fuck you

The reality is that today shifting definitions often reflects personal or ideological agenda

This is the classic way for people to excuse lack of talent or poor taste for example

Somebody quote me so the retard can see

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

An article by a humanities/arts idiot struggling with his grasp on reality. Definitions are context-dependent. So ancient greeks are the correct definition in modern context, same as CRPG is nowadays. It doesn't matter what they called themselves a long time ago, the context has changed.

It's very obvious that you only saw the thumbnail and joined the bandwagon like a little sheep, because that's whole point the article is making: Definitions are context-dependent.

So CRPG as Computer RPG doesn't make sense anymore to a generation growing up with Final Fantasy, Dark Souls and Persona on PCs, that is why the meaning is changing.

No, I've read it for a bit, I dropped it around Zork. The idea of context-dependency is so simple that it doesn't require a case-study of the RPGs to explain it. It's self-evident if you understand the world. What I suspect happened is that you THOUGHT it required an explanation with a whole song and dance specifically because you had grappled with it, sweated for days, to finally stumble on it and decided that it must be a great philosophical achievement. So great, in fact, that you'd be like Prometheus, illuminating us through your thought process. It was a childish assumption. Hence my reaction — it's only with humanities/arts people that getting a thought is some kind of extravaganza level of event.

 

[Crispy]

Thank you.

The reality is that, today, shifting definitions often reflect personal or ideological agendae.

This is the classic way for people to excuse lack of talent or poor taste, for example.

However, I very much appreciate your article and I recognize that my views, like anyone else's, are subject to being erroneous.

 

[felipepepe]

Somebody quote me so the retard can see

I never ignored you, is fun to see you trying sooo hard to get attention.

 

[luj1]

Funny how you "never ignored me" but are obviously seething in silence the whole time. Anyway, watching you wander lost is pure entertainment. There is nothing wrong with the definition of RPGs. You're just a massive pleb, utterly intoxicated by Dark Souls and Japan. You are unwell, and I will always attack those who push the "definitions change over time" faggotry.

 

[Silverfish]

Funny how you "never ignored me" yet you sound like someone quietly seething the whole time.

"You didn't ignore me? Mad yet?"

You're just a massive pleb, hopelessly intoxicated by Dark Souls and Japan.

 

[Vlajdermen]

Funny how you "never ignored me" yet you sound like someone quietly seething the whole time.

"You didn't ignore me? Mad yet?"

You're just a massive pleb, hopelessly intoxicated by Dark Souls and Japan.

Congratulations on posting a meme. I'm sure your parents are proud of you. See, I can do the same thing.

But is this really the kind of dialogue you want to have with people? Posting visual snark at one another until one gets tired of it? Or do you just want a picture regurgitating your opinion so you can feel validated?

Also note how my meme has a punchline, while yours doesn't. That's because weeb memes aren't jokes, they're pamphlets.