Felipepepe on the history of the term "CRPG"

[Ol' Willy]

Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim

The fact that these two are in top 100 list of any kind is enough to tell one about the state of affairs

 

[mondblut]

Sure, but if you draw the line at things like party creation, character sheets, full party control, and turn-based combat, then you’re effectively wiping out most of the RPG Codex Top 100 list. Games like Gothic, ELEX, Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim, even Daggerfall wouldn't belong there by that definition.

Except Daggerfall, nothing of value would be lost. And even Daggerfall is more of a cLARP.

Might as well rewrite one and call it the Top 100 RPGs Taliban Edition at that point.

Long overdue, inshallah.

 

[Sergio]

The best way to use this term (and any others) is to do it the way you want to, then watch people seethe in anger while they call you names. Here, let me show you.

cRPG just means classic RPG, games based on D&D systems.

Any game made by non-japanese devs is not a JRPG.

WRPG is every single RPG made in Europe or in the USA.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

You can play computer RPGs on console too. And you can play Japanese RPGs in Europe and US too.

I play Console RPGs in my Computer. And I play Japanese RPGs IN SOUTH AMERICA!

In fact, I'm playing Inindo: Way of the Ninja right now, so I am currently doing both. Eat shit, Japan, Glory to the Brazilian Empire!
Based Brazilian PC Master will always prevail over godless eastern gookoids and chinkoids

Nice, old propaganda. What is it saying?

 

[SixDead]

Nice, old propaganda. What is it saying?

"Rook! Burashiru sakku KOKKU!"

 

[Maxie]

I thought we already solved this issue, CRPGs are all the game I enjoy because I only play prestigious, deep, philisophical games, pretty simple guys

Damn, TheCumGuzzler, I haven't suspected you're such a spiritual guy

 

[Mortmal]

Sure, but if you draw the line at things like party creation, character sheets, full party control, and turn-based combat, then you’re effectively wiping out most of the RPG Codex Top 100 list. Games like Gothic, ELEX, Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim, even Daggerfall wouldn't belong there by that definition.

Except Daggerfall, nothing of value would be lost. And even Daggerfall is more of a cLARP.

Might as well rewrite one and call it the Top 100 RPGs Taliban Edition at that point.

Long overdue, inshallah.

 

[Litmanen]

You can play computer RPGs on console too. And you can play Japanese RPGs in Europe and US too.

I play Console RPGs in my Computer. And I play Japanese RPGs IN SOUTH AMERICA!

In fact, I'm playing Inindo: Way of the Ninja right now, so I am currently doing both. Eat shit, Japan, Glory to the Brazilian Empire!
Based Brazilian PC Master will always prevail over godless eastern gookoids and chinkoids

Nice, old propaganda. What is it saying?

"Let's go to South America with our family."

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

This year, the top three RPGs I played were Clair Obscur, Kingdom Come 2, and Cyber Knights Flashpoint.

The first two are not RPGs

Sure, but if you draw the line at things like party creation, character sheets, full party control, and turn-based combat, then you’re effectively wiping out most of the RPG Codex Top 100 list. Games like Gothic, ELEX, Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim, even Daggerfall wouldn't belong there by that definition. Might as well rewrite one and call it the Top 100 RPGs Taliban Edition at that point.

On the one hand those restrictions would eliminate Daggerfall and Morrowind, but on the other hand it would eliminate Baldur's Gate and everything else by Bioware.

 

[Harthwain]

This year, the top three RPGs I played were Clair Obscur, Kingdom Come 2, and Cyber Knights Flashpoint.

The first two are not RPGs

Sure, but if you draw the line at things like party creation, character sheets, full party control, and turn-based combat, then you’re effectively wiping out most of the RPG Codex Top 100 list. Games like Gothic, ELEX, Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim, even Daggerfall wouldn't belong there by that definition. Might as well rewrite one and call it the Top 100 RPGs Taliban Edition at that point.

On the one hand those restrictions would eliminate Daggerfall and Morrowind, but on the other hand it would eliminate Baldur's Gate and everything else by Bioware.

Baldur's Gate has full party control and character sheets (even if you're not the one creating them), and it is still a party-based game based on the actual PnP RPG (the literal kind) in terms of rules/mechanics, so eliminating that is insane, regardless of how one dislikes DnD, WotC or BioWare.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

This year, the top three RPGs I played were Clair Obscur, Kingdom Come 2, and Cyber Knights Flashpoint.

The first two are not RPGs

Sure, but if you draw the line at things like party creation, character sheets, full party control, and turn-based combat, then you’re effectively wiping out most of the RPG Codex Top 100 list. Games like Gothic, ELEX, Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim, even Daggerfall wouldn't belong there by that definition. Might as well rewrite one and call it the Top 100 RPGs Taliban Edition at that point.

On the one hand those restrictions would eliminate Daggerfall and Morrowind, but on the other hand it would eliminate Baldur's Gate and everything else by Bioware.

Baldur's Gate has full party control and character sheets (even if you're not the one creating them), and it is still a party-based game based on the actual PnP RPG (the literal kind) in terms of rules/mechanics, so eliminating that is insane, regardless of how one dislikes DnD, WotC or BioWare.

Highlighted it for you.

 

[Harthwain]

Eh, if this was real-time only I would agree, but pause makes it both tactical and manageable enough (which is more than you can say for some blobbers). Also, this isn't just blunt real-time; the game has personal initiative round per character and AD&D rule system implemented to boot. So this game is much more faithful to the rules of an RPG than most so-called cRPGs.

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

Nice, old propaganda. What is it saying?

Vamos! Prepare a sua família e vamos para a América do Sul - Let's go! Gather your family and let's go to South America.
Sā ikau ikka o agete Nanbei e’ (さあ行かう一家をあげて南米へ

 

[Mortmal]

Eh, if this was real-time only I would agree, but pause makes it both tactical and manageable enough (which is more than you can say for some blobbers). Also, this isn't just blunt real-time; the game has personal initiative round per character and AD&D rule system implemented to boot. So this game is much more faithful to the rules of an RPG than most so-called cRPGs.

As much as I liked Baldur's Gate, a true turn-based AD&D game would have been far better. It lacks so many of the tabletop options that make D&D special. I am not even listing everything missing. Real-time with pause is an abomination for a CRPG. It was only introduced because of the popularity of Warcraft, not because it suited the genre.


Even earlier turn-based D&D games like the Gold Box series and Dark Sun were quite limited, though I can't blame them. Those were different times. The genre was, and still is, underfunded and niche. We had very few choices back then. CRPGs are simply much harder to make than first-person shooters, which is probably why they have always struggled to gain mainstream support.

 

[luj1]

Real-time with pause is an abomination for a CRPG. It was only introduced because of the popularity of Warcraft

True... but now there are far worse things

I will always prefer TB (cleaner system) but plenty of goated classics were RTwP

Meanwhile you also have some TB games such as BG3 with shitty rulesets and too much rubbish "cinematic" design

 

[Butter]

Real-time with pause is an abomination for a CRPG. It was only introduced because of the popularity of Warcraft

True... but now there are far worse things

I will always prefer TB (cleaner system) but plenty of goated classics were RTwP

Like the Pillars of Eternity series.

 

[Harthwain]

As much as I liked Baldur's Gate, a true turn-based AD&D game would have been far better. It lacks so many of the tabletop options that make D&D special.

I am not saying it wasn't an experiment, nor I am saying it was better than turn-based. I am saying that flat out denying Baldur's Gate being RPG purely because it is real-time with pause is an idiotic statement for more reasons than one.

Real-time with pause is an abomination for a CRPG.

Real-time with no pause and no control over your companions in combat is much worse. Arcanum being prime example here.

 

[jackofshadows]

Real-time with no pause and no control over your companions in combat is much worse. Arcanum being prime example here.

It has TB mode though. And limited control over companions (which barely works tbf).

 

[Harthwain]

It has TB mode though.

Yeah, but I am talking about real-time specifically. Because it really shows how bad real-time without pause can be.

And limited control over companions (which barely works tbf).

You have no direct control though and that makes having companions a headache compared to Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. Hell, it is a headache even in turn-based mode.

 

[Old Hans]

As much as I liked Baldur's Gate, a true turn-based AD&D game would have been far better. It lacks so many of the tabletop options that make D&D special.

You need to look at the context of the when the game was developed, and in the late 90's turn based was looked at like an old dinosaur fossil

 

[Nifft Batuff]

As much as I liked Baldur's Gate, a true turn-based AD&D game would have been far better. It lacks so many of the tabletop options that make D&D special.

You need to look at the context of the when the game was developed, and in the late 90's turn based was looked at like an old dinosaur fossil

Not everyone was so idiot in the late '90s. Fallout 2 was published in the end of 1998.

 

[Funposter]

CRPG = games that I like

 

[NecroLord]

Cyberpunk 2077, Skyrim

The fact that these two are in top 100 list of any kind is enough to tell one about the state of affairs

Also a push to accept more and more jrpg slop as if they were genuine rpgs.
Heresy.

 

[Atlantico]

I wrote it and posted on the CRPG Book blog because so many people on reddit, twitter and discord know nothing about all this.

What a meaningless gesture

 

[Atlantico]

Comments on the blog post:

CRPG now meaning “party-based isometric RPG” or “Infinity Engine-like” is good, I agree. Having a more narrow definition means it is actually useful.

“RPG” on the other hand is a term that there is too much disagreements about and too broad to be used.

If I tell someone I am into CRPGs, people (at least younger generations) will assume I am talking about games like Shadowrun, Expeditions Viking, BG3, etc. That makes it a useful term to be used in conversations.

If I tell people I am into RPGs, no one will agree on what kind of game I am talking about, and if people end up agreeing, it is usually an agreement that most games are an RPG, from Far Cry, Skyrim and GTA to Arknights, Fallout shelter and Azur Lane. which means we have agreed on a definition that defines nothing.

Agree completely with the insight that no-one really even needed specific words for a distinction, until diverging approaches to RPGs came to light in a shared console space in the late 2000s. That happens and then people want to talk about it – starting first with enthusiasts on places like forum.rpg.net (where the first indexed post with JRPG on Google is roughly 19 years old on Monday) – using this awkward terminology.

I would guess this is primarily due to different technologies leading to different approaches to the genre.

Personal computers had lots of RAM, processor power, hard drives. That leads to this approach that’s very heavy on sidequest content and on optional content and optional party members, which all gets termed “choices”. Along with a tendency to a pretty weak central narrative (that generally speaking has low forward propulsion and urgency in the game and low emotional impact).

Consoles don’t have that, and instead they have a lot of specialised graphics chips that mean they punch above their cost, when it comes to presentation. That means it makes more sense to evolve along these linear stories with great art that push forward at a fast pace, focused on relationships between a fixed cast of characters.

Each evolves into quite a specialised form that can’t dilute itself, and remains in its own niche. Besides audience expectations; the PC RPGs that emphasise “choices” can’t scale technologically to consoles; the console RPGs just wouldn’t make business sense from a sales perspective to develop around a smaller and mainly Western PC audience (except for in some territories where PCs are the only game in town).

So each continues in its own way until we get to the era when consoles have hard drives. That then means PC RPGs are more properly possible (even if in modified form) on a console. So then more people start to need words to explain what they perceive to be the difference and “Console RPG” stops being a viable way to say that (at this point, all these things are on consoles, after all). So then we get the emergence of the “JRPG” and “CRPG” terms, which oppose each form from each other, and then eventually the new Western console targeted RPGs from what came before on PC.

Why would you bring shit like comments on a blog post here? Especially shit that claims the term "RPG" is too broad, because to that particular faggot RPG can mean anything from Baldur's Gate to incest fantasies and pretending to be a woman. That's "role playing" right?

Don't you dare pilpul faggotry into RPGs