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X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

Discussion in 'Tactical Gaming' started by Peter, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. mastroego Arcane

    mastroego
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    It can be a blessing if you have explosives.

    Sucks, but it happened even with "vanilla" LW.
    Satellite killers are a thing, ok, you need to put them down if possible, but in general remember that you don't have to engage each and every UFO. You're supposed to be picking your fights carefully. Some of them you'll HAVE to skip.
    I'm finding Air Combat MUCH more "gameable" now that I can even send 5 planes at a time against an UFO. If I deem one dangerous enough I'll send the entire freakin' squadron, so it'll have less time to fire back and spread less damage.

    You can find the reasoning behind each change in the mod's description.
    The XP thing has to do with late game balance IIRC, and/or the handling of new recruits.

    I loathed the changes to Assaults at first but now I love them. You'll have very unique soldiers now, and you'll choose which one to take for the mission. I have 4 very different Assaults in my game, they all play differently but they're all awesome. The tank will tank in the front line and he won't zip around. But he is a mammoth!
     
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  2. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    Whatever assault I made they are not useful in endgame. Aliens cannot miss you when you are too close and they get two shot. At best they are injured often. Numbers and damage of aliens is insane in end game.

    I think shotgun scouts are better at that job.
     
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  3. mastroego Arcane

    mastroego
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    Well, uhm. I'll still have the Psion Assault runner, or the other one :D
     
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  4. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

    ArchAngel
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    There are exactly two useful situations for assaults in end game and both deal with melee enemies using that ability that gives them a shot vs enemies moving within 4 squares. Those two are called Berserkers and Chrysalids.
    They would also be good vs Outsiders if they didn't give them same tools that punish assaults that move close to them.
    Also shotguns were nerfed vs those two enemies as they only do 50% vs hardened targets. So you are stuck using gauss shotguns and breaching ammo.

    In any case a good flamethrower MEC (like a marauder)is better than an assault in any situation.
     
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  5. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    Best change of LWR is how you get a bonus move if you find a new pack while moving to flank (or just scouting).
    Now I want that in lw2.
     
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  6. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    OK even with second wave options and my own mods and ignoring last few versions of the game that the guy released (they are getting worse, his changes are making the game even worse), end game is just a mess. Design, balance, everything is terrible.

    I am able to enter last map (Temple Ship) but I am grinding missions because I lack MELD to get all the equipment to Plasma level for all the troops that would go to it. Also the Psionic system is a bust (don't know if vanilla LW1 is also like this), you need super high will to access Mind Control (and last mind power is not even open, I captured Ethereal and it was very hard and I only got Mind Control from it), will does not really go up a lot when you level up. Only characters that can access that are those I got from the DLC mission, they all start with like 80 will and can access all PSI powers. None of the characters I get normally has even 60 base will.
    But missions at this point are crazy hard. Today I retreated from swarming Abduction (with my modded 7 guy team) that in one turn had whole map open and had me surrounded by everything including 2 Ethereals LOL.

    Mod says that you are not supposed to play indefinitely and need to finish it, but that kind of gameplay is supposed to be balanced with being able to access tech and resources to be able to. This shit is not balanced. Everything costs so much MELD in endgame while alien tech and numbers go up too much.
    Also air game is busted at some point. Now they are sending Battleships vs my satellites, I send 5 ships and they do 10% damage before needing to retreat because I lost two basic ships.

    And in almost all my missions someone gets critically wounded leaving them in medbay for 40 days and I don't have meld to speed it up. At this point I probably need to grind 10 more missions to have exp and meld and people back from healing to go do last missions. I rather slit my own wrists LOL.
    I am moving on to good games. Maybe I come back to this mod when the author has finished it, or try LW v2 when it is finished. I noticed on Nexus that someone has continued developing LW version 2, maybe one day that one is finished and plays better.
     
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  7. mastroego Arcane

    mastroego
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    People used to finish regular LW even without researching plasma.
    If you got to that point I'm sure you can also deal with the last missions with a couple of non-plasma weapons.


    To get the last power it's not enough to capture an Ethereal, you need to fucking Mind Control one.
    At least this used to be the case with regular LW: I'm assuming it still works this way.
    It's not a requirement to end the game, consider it.... an achievement.
    I actually got it in my regular LW days during the most amazing mission I've ever played... wish I had recorded it or something.

    Anyway, if anything getting Psi powers is now easier.
    Quite a lot actually.
    And you'll normally need to pump your psi soldiers to get your powers to a decent "to hit chance" level.
    Use Officer squad skills, Psi Inspiration and Mind Merge from other Psions, psi-enhancing equipment, even freaking drugs (unless the will boost was removed, but I don't think it was).
    ALSO you should.... reduce your target's will!

    I'm getting truly INSANE terror missions now, true.
    I guess you really need to try and get to the end asap with this rebalance.


    It's not yet perfect, granted.
    But I used to play LW, and as FREAKING HARD as it was (hell, originally it was pitched as "not meant to be finished"), once you got the snowballing effect going, there was no going back. It became easier and easier, and if you really wanted to get to the ending (which I did want, on principle) you had to drag yourself through countless missions that had become almost meaningless.
    So far, this seems to truly have been reversed.

    And you still managed to get to the end on the first try, even with an aversion to Readmes, so I assume that if you were to play it again you would certainly fare better: for instance you'd place more value on Meld, you'd use it more carefully and so on. Little gains do pile up in a long game such as this.
     
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  8. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    No, I am not playing again until this is balanced into a real game. From all I read about LW since I started playing LWR I am more than glad I only played it a bit, it sounds like complete unbalanced garbage.

    I just want a mod that improves on vanilla Xcom EW, I don't need these brain fart mods from crap designers. Long War 2 is so much better designed (and based on a game that has big maps) that is it not even funny. It is like night and day.

    And Open Xcom is whole step beyond Lw2 and 2 steps beyond LW.
     
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  9. Thane Solus Arcane

    Thane Solus
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    xcom nu 1 long war - rebalance is 10 times better than xcom 2, or xcom 1 long war (xcom 2 long war is garbage). Of course we have to give praise to the original Long War, but thankfully a designer/scripter came, and fixed that retardness + some awesome modders. We got progression, proper difficulty, proper intercepption mini game with many ceptors, based on ranks, some decent tweaks to tactical layer, and so on. The guy would done much more, but the retards at "FAxis" didnt made some features available for modication, cause they used unreal, and went C++ indian in it, for fixed coded features. I bet anything that XCOM 3 is gona be absolute garbage.
     
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  10. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    How much time did you spend playing Long War 2?
     
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  11. Thane Solus Arcane

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    About 5 hours. The introduced some nice "mechanics" with the resistance members, which FX copied somewhat in ze expansion, but they failed overall as progression, just like in Xcom 1. They made/expanded some interesting features, but they dont have one designer to make a progression or something out of their features, just like in Long War 1. I think they are bankrupt now, unless they are less than 5. One guy, ONE, fixed their whole progression and features, with some mods and his scripting, Long War - Rebalanced. ONe!
     
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  12. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    I've spend quite some time on LW2 and what I remember the most from it are how I fucking hated some of the mechanics they introduced. Like how you could be infiltrating for days, with Advent none the wiser, but the second you stepped out the door a countdown started and reinforcements started dropping down from the sky, even though you were concealed and Advent didn't have a clue you were there. Had to use a mod to stop that bullshit and start countdown only when you actually break concealment. Or how enemies could take offensive actions when they ran into you instead of just scampering for cover / overwatching. Yes game, by all means, have a squad double time into my flank while I'm busy fighting another two squads, then run for cover, then shoot me while I watch it all in disbelief. That's only 4 moves after all.
     
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  13. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    I spent 100h playing LWR and 200h playing Long War 2. I don't think you are qualified to compare the quality of these two mods. I also doubt you spent much time playing Xcom 2 vanilla. In 5h you certainly didn't see any progression in Long War 2 lol.

    As for LRW, there are at least two guys. Ucross makes some of the number tweeks but there is that another guy that made many of the mods that change how the game plays (like the squadron combat). He also made the little mod for me that let me take 2 more people into Abduction missions.
     
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  14. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    Infiltration was to force you to have lots of soldiers and it fit the theme. Timers were from base game but LW2 actually made them work. They increased all timers and had them drop reinforcements instead of arbitrarily ending the mission with failed state like vanilla Xcom 2 had.
    Offensive actions was a good addition because in vanilla Xcom 2 it was too easy to clear packs that never fought you. LRW solves this "problem" by activating multiple packs at once so you can still get surrounded and shot at on next alien turn.
    Also aliens actions were very low to happen beyond first guy. Also it only worked once enemies were on alert because you already fought someone. Squads coming into your flank was part of enemy AI, they hear battle and sometimes go straight forward and sometimes try to flank. It is no different than how UFO 1994 had it with aliens appearing from flank and murdering your troops.
    LW2 unlike LRW gives you ability to bring bigger squads into battle from day 1. And has you fighting on larger maps.
     
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  15. Zero Credibility Arcane

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    You are right, timers starting on mission start were there from the base game. Where that made sense, since Advent has just seen your dropship come in to drop you off. It made zero sense when they added infiltration though, and LW2 should have incorporated True Concealment mod at that point. But no, instead you get ever increasing reinforcements randomly drop from the sky while you are trying to be quiet and avoid contact. That mod not only made the game make sense again, it improved on the gameplay because sneaking around patrols and avoiding contact before you are in position to go loud near the objective again became a good idea. It made you feel like a guerilla again.

    And I'm sorry, but offensive action on activation was pure bullshit, and even if it happened only once (and if RNG was not on your side it could happened again and again) it was once too many. In comparison, LWR solution is much more elegant for three reasons. First, LWR shows you where pods are when they activate. That makes all the difference in the world, because now you know what you are fighting and roughly where they are. No more pods you had no way of knowing about running half way across the map from fog of war to shoot you in the ass. Second, you always have opportunity to react to their activation because the game gives you a bonus move action if you activate a pod when you are out of actions. And finally, when remotely activated pods do come for you next turn, they would have already used up their moves just to get in range and would not immediately start shooting you. No 4 moves for them, that's the critical difference - if they used up their actions to flank you, they can't shoot you as well on the same turn.

    One side benefit of this implementation - it makes you less afraid to use assaults and play aggressively. How many times would you use run and gun in LW2, double move forward to flank an enemy point blank, only to activate a pod that was sitting just out of field of view and that would then proceed to murder your assault next turn while you watch helplessly? No more of that here, nearby pods are already activated and you know they are out there somewhere, or you get a bonus move if you trigger one you didn't activate yet.

    Look, I'm not saying LWR is all that great. I am yet to advance to end game (I restarted my game to rush MECs asap instead), but I already sense the same bullshit design on it that soured me on LW2, where modders would watch a youtube video of some asshole successfully use some tactic to defeat the AI, then nerf the player options / buff enemies to compensate, then watch the same asshole do something else, more nerfing / buffing and so on and on. Until the game stopped being fun at all and it became a grueling task just to continue playing. Only now in smaller maps. No, what I'm saying is that of all nu-xcom games, vanilla and modded, LWR's implementation of combat is... the least shit. And that's the most you can hope for with Firaxis' idiotic pod mechanics.

    Oh, and it also has MECs, which goes a long way to make me want to play the bloody game.
     
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  16. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    Best things about LWR are MECs (because they are not nerfed to shit yet) and that extra move you get when you activate new aliens but you used up all your actions. Everything else is not that great. While you can solve concealment issues of Xcom 2 and LW2 with True Concealment mod you cannot fix small maps of LWR with any mods. And there is certainly no mod that helps with end game grind. While LWR is better than LW (from what people say) it is still bad.

    As for multiple activations being good, in theory it is good because you can move forward with your assault but if you did activate multiple pods all you got now is lots of enemies coming, sending assault forward is death for him. And if you don't really use assaults multiple activation system still made the game a lot harder. Not to mention everyone in LWR has a big bonus to hit when you are close, anyone living after you moved your assault foward is going to destroy that character. LWR idea of game design is have lots of enemies with lots of life and lots of damage and then have rng decide everything. Except if you are very close, then you are fucked because aliens always got more troops so you will get shot.

    As for LW2 I don't know what 4 actions you are talking about. New enemies move once during their turn, find you. They move into cover or go into overwatch. If they were on yellow or red alert they also have a chance to fire at your troops, each enemy that got a chance to fire reduces significantly chance for next one to also get to shoot. This is 2 actions for most, 3 for some. And those are limited to shooting or less dangerous stuff like Officer marking. In LWR those would get activated on turn before this one due to you attacking some other pack. They would use one action to move and another to shoot or do anything terrible they can do (like mind control). If they are very far away they would double move. But in LW2 if they cannot come into vision in one round they also don't get to act.

    Overall LW2 mechanic is less punishing although it can lead to some bad situations when the extra pack comes from flanking side. But that is why you got a Shinobi class in LW2, you can use them to scout for such packs and prepare.
     
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  17. Thane Solus Arcane

    Thane Solus
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    LW Vanilla XCOM 1 maybe 60 hours.
    LWR - over 100 hours

    I played XCOM 2 vanilla and expansion a lot, probably 100 hours or so, never finished the game since end game becomes retarded, but i fought most of the "Heroes". Tactical layer is improved and fun up to a point, and the rest mediocre. It was interesting idea on strategy layer, but i didn't like the execution, still the expansion made a bit better. Fira copied some things from LW and i think LW 2 as well, and while those guys deserve praise, like i said they need a proper designer, like the dude/s that made LW Rebalanced.

    Xcom 2 LW - yeah i played it like 5 hours, the rest i watched some lets plays on youtube to see the rest of the features and went back to LWR.
     
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  18. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    LW2 is hardly blameless on the whole lots of enemies with lots of life and lots of damage front, as it gleefully does every one of those things. Only difference is that LWR seems to unwisely try to cram it all into smaller maps. Combine with multiple activations and you get some frustrating bullshit indeed. I'm not a fan of ramping up difficulty like that either, but in the end multiple activation system in LWR is still far better than what we got in LW2. If you know there's another activated pod behind the enemy (and you are shown all activations) you will not risk your assault moving on it. And if you accidentally activate a pod, you get a move to simply pull him back. In LW2 you are simply is fucked if you activate a pod at the wrong time.

    It really is up to 4 actions, I've repeatedly seen pods on alert double move from far away, then scamper for cover, and then shoot. It was not fun. Even a single free flanking shoot at your troops already engaged in a pitched battle is really bad news. That's very likely one less soldier to fight an even worse situation on your next turn, because either he is badly wounded and useless, down for the count or just dead. This mechanic is just so fucking bad, it adds nothing but misery to the player and makes the AI look like a cheater every time it pulls it off. I'll take multiple activations over that any day, because that's the only way to even start fixing the whole pod mechanics. Giving enemies free potshots at you instead is not fixing this at all, that just creates another problem. I've seen the advice about scouting and shinobis before and it does not work out that way in practice. How do you scout for an incoming pod while you are stuck engaging one or more squads already (which is when you need to worry about it the most), and have increasing reinforcements rain on you as well with every passing turn? And while you can take larger squads in battle in theory, in practice you never did because of how insanely punishing low infitration was.

    In the end LW2 is for me tainted by the same thing you blame LWR for - trying to increase late game difficulty by stacking things against the player until they break all semblance of balance, fun and common fucking sense. Pile in more enemies (the record I've seen is 63), more HP, more armor, more abilities, more damage, more tedium. It's quite likely I will start hating LWR for the same reason, I just haven't got there yet. I'll still prefer it over LW2 because it has MECs, of course. LW2 has a magic glove that shoots out flames.
     
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  19. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    LW2 health and enemy numbers don't match what LWR wants to throw at you, at least not when you account for size of the maps. I have seen enemies in LWR with over 40 life, even up to 50. And later game larger ships have 50 enemies and I had council mission with 30 enemies (and this is on Classic difficulty). In LW2 you get high number of enemies only on a few missions, most have lower numbers and you get to control this. Strength and size of enemy troops depends on strength of aliens in that region. You are not meant to stay in regions with 5 or more strength unless you are close to liberating it. Just move all your operation to another region and do missions there.
    Also in Xcom 1 enemies know where you are and in time most will come to you. In LW2 they always do their patrol route and only start searching for you when they hear gunshots or see dead bodies.

    Size of maps is biggest and best difference between these games. LW2 feels more like UFO even with almost zero UFO missions. You start with and take bigger squads and fight on bigger maps where aliens get to flank you. Also enemies get to use more grenades vs you where in LWR only Mutons use grenades (or sometimes cyberdisks) and everyone else just does pewpew.

    Also LW2 gives more tools to players, LWR feels like playing chess so often with everyone having reaction overwatch shots. Late game it is all about managing enemies that can overwatch or suppress. You move one unit out of its turn and it gets killed and loses the mission. In LW2 enemies are stronger on their turn but you are given lots of tools to deal with them so you can minimize their effect. As a result they often graze instead of hitting and the game still feels dangerous. In LWR it is all or nothing.
     
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  20. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    Sadly, maps is one problem that can't be fixed with mods in XCOM1. If there was a way to add new maps someone would have found it by now.

    Anyway, I'll see how late game pans out myself soon enough. Till then it's quite fun. But then, LW2 was the same for me before regular grindfests with 50+ enemies made me quit. That 63 enemies mission was the final straw, because in the end it wasn't even all that difficult, it was just so god damn tedious to go through it drained all my will to continue playing.
     
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  21. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    Seems there is a new big patch for LWR with more big changes coming today. This guy is crazy. He makes big changes every 1-2 weeks lol. Too bad he does not keep previous version up so we can download the kind of game we want :D

     
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  22. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

    ArchAngel
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    About the talk LW2 vs LWR. Apparently someone ported the scamper mod from LWR into Xcom 2. It is called [WOTC] XCom Scamper on steam workshop.
    Only problem is that it requires WOTC expansion and does not work with LW2 :D
    Maybe when mod LW2 for expanions called Long War of the Chosen is completed it will work with that.
     
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  23. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    This patch is released so go grab it guys :D

    I might start a new run today, go full MEC this time. No spending MELD on gene mods or selling them on this run.
     
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  24. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

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    I have spent a few hours with the new patch. 8 guys from the start in terror, ufo and council missions and 5 in abductions is an interesting change. The number of enemies on maps has received a noticeable increase and even with 8 guys a few missions were touch and go. I had to resort to overwatch traps to make sure I leave with no casualties. On the other hand, now I am able to field 1 SHIV in every 8 man mission and not feel like they are taking space and stealing XP.
    Of course one of the previous additions where SHIV gives his share of XP to other 7 guys helps.

    Although I wanted to rush MECs (I even took the starting position that gives +10 aim to all MECs and SHIVs) I am stopped by not being able to get UFO power source from any of the ufo missions I had. And I am still waiting for my first landed UFO mission.

    It helps that I already got to late late game in LWR once, now I know what to expect, how abilities work, how enemies work and the rest. But I am still stupid enough to forget to not get too close to Outsiders, even if it is with a tanky SHIV :D

    Also in this patch the buffed Ethereals. Now they get to panic your troops every turn... and I found them hard enough already when they didn't do this.
     
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  25. Thane Solus Arcane

    Thane Solus
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    i dont know if i like these 8 guys teams. I liked it more a few patches back when they were 6 or less, and the rest you had to upgrade. The previous patch (which i play now) without upgrades terror missions u got 4 :))) and so abduction, which i am not a big fan either. But 8 from the start i dont know. He probably did this, so you can finally use more classes, not only 3 or 4. At the same time if is 8 now, that means way more aliens in missions as well...
     
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