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FO3 is not nearly as bad as you hystronic nerds make it out to be

ValeVelKal

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Well, I enjoyed both, I did not love either. For reference and so you can put me in a little boxes I loved Morrowind, disliked Oblivion and enjoyed Skyrim.

Fallout NV is way better written and its story is way more interesting (+makes sense, feels "Fallout-y"). More than that - Fallout NV is probably one of the RPG with the best "world-design" : it feels like a comprehensive world with its economy, its "cultures", its encompassing political and ideological struggle that go through the whole Mojave. The war between the various factions has its recent history, which you can connect to locations you can visit or people you can talk to (eg the defeated Khans), it has its strategic targets (not only the dam but also eg the power plant). Exploration is not so much finding pretty places, it is adding pieces to the puzzle of the world you know, until later in the game you are the one creating the puzzle.
Obviously, the fact that FNV have factions and that the world evolve depending on your action / faction choice way more than in FO3 is the cherry-on top... but then this part feels rushed as NCR is way more fleshed out than Caesar and you can reset your faction standing at some point - so the faction choice is not critical in making the world comprehensive - it is everything else.

Similarly, I don't feel the individual quests taken in isolation are that much better than FO3 - I actually find them in general LESS interesting - but they connect better in the global world, whether they kind of float in a bubble in FO3. This gives the quests an extra purpose they don't have in FO3.

On the other hand and as a consequences of it, the cities and "place of interests" in FNV are usually boring and uninspired in terms of look and while the main quest feels less direction in FNV than in FO3 you are forced (in a very organic way) to travel counter-clockwise to reach New Vegas. Seeing NV towers in the distance and the frustration of it being within grasp but not there yet works very, very well, but the game feels less free in that regard than FO3.

FO3 has terrible "World-design", but it has way better city architecture and "level-design" in terms of pure short-term exploration, and as I said the individual quests are just as good if not better than FNV. The problem is that lacking world-design, each city, and really each location is a bubble with little or even zero connection to the rest of the world. In this regard, it is really Oblivion with Guns : not only because of the general "pick a direction, find adventure, don't think too much" but also because Oblivion never bothered having a world that made sense in terms of how the places and people and whatnot articulate with one another. Thanks to this, FO3 feels less directive because the game designers did not have to care whether player encountered "bubble-place #7" before or after "bubble-place #3.

Consequently, I played FO3 8 years ago and FNV 3 years ago - I have NO recollection of the story in FO3 except that I am looking for my father and there is some poisoned lake and a giant robot at some point, but I remember fondly the "dungeons" and other locations (that Mirelurk place near the river, the virtual reality '50 America, the ant tunnels, Megaton and really all the cities, that early game supermarket near Megaton, that tunnel with all the kids, Oasis, Washington DC, the Enclave base, ...). I don't think I really remember any place in non-DLC FNV except NV itself and the Hover Dam, plus the two military bases (NCR and Boomer). On the other hand, I remember very well the storyline and some of the characters of FNV, and the look of the general map.

Side note : I don't find the FO3 tutorial that bad, it is fun the first time for sure. I assume it has no replay value, but then FO3 has IMO no replay value either, so...

Last items :

Fallout 3 DLC are terrible, with The Pitt reaching at best "OK-ishness", whereas FNV has one solid-though-often-frustrating-and-YMMV DLC [Dead Money] and one outstanding DLC [Old World Blues]

BUT

The Fallout 3 radio is way better than the Fallout New Vegas radio





All in all, I believe that FNV is a superior game but I can see why people would prefer FO3, especially if they don't care much about the Fallout lore and prefer "short stories" of sorts rather than a full campaign :). FO3 is about being a mercenary, FNV about being a stakeholder.

About "world-design" vs "level-design"/ originality, you can have both - Morrowind obviously comes to mind, or to take a less popular / well-known game that will give me RPGcodex cred, the Dark Sun games (or the Dark Sun P&P universe). Even Skyrim, for all its flows, was adequate in this regard.
 
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Duralux for Durabux

Guest
alexander-berezin-vegas.jpg

Instead of that we got that
340

fuuuuu.png

I suffer the real phantom pain now.
 

JDR13

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The Swamp
that early game supermarket near Megaton
Funny you mention the supermarket because that's one of the few places I found memorable. I thought it was cool that I could hack into the computer and have the security bot start fighting the raiders which were too strong for me at that point. Of course that was in the first few hours of the game, and I hadn't yet realized how shallow it actually was.

All in all, I believe that FNV is a superior game but I can see why people would prefer FO3, especially if they don't care much about the Fallout lore and prefer "short stories" of sorts rather than a full campaign :). FO3 is about being a mercenary, FNV about being a stakeholder.

Short of being mentally retarded, I can't see why anyone would prefer FO3.
 

MWaser

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Where you won't find me
All in all, I believe that FNV is a superior game but I can see why people would prefer FO3, especially if they don't care much about the Fallout lore and prefer "short stories" of sorts rather than a full campaign :). FO3 is about being a mercenary, FNV about being a stakeholder.
Short of being mentally retarded, I can't see why anyone would prefer FO3.
Fallout 3 offers you the giant robot screaming about how it will defeat communism fighting against the Enclave, meaning the PURE American values dealing with the "corrupt" US government as represented by the Enclave, so I can see why libertarians would prefer it.
 

Yosharian

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Grand Chien
All in all, I believe that FNV is a superior game but I can see why people would prefer FO3, especially if they don't care much about the Fallout lore and prefer "short stories" of sorts rather than a full campaign :). FO3 is about being a mercenary, FNV about being a stakeholder.
Short of being mentally retarded, I can't see why anyone would prefer FO3.
Fallout 3 offers you the giant robot screaming about how it will defeat communism fighting against the Enclave, meaning the PURE American values dealing with the "corrupt" US government as represented by the Enclave, so I can see why libertarians would prefer it.
To be fair that is a fucking legendary moment in FO3, even if it really doesn't fit what Fallout is 'supposed' to be. Watching Liberty Prime fuck people up is endlessly entertaining.
 

Sykar

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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
All in all, I believe that FNV is a superior game but I can see why people would prefer FO3, especially if they don't care much about the Fallout lore and prefer "short stories" of sorts rather than a full campaign :). FO3 is about being a mercenary, FNV about being a stakeholder.
Short of being mentally retarded, I can't see why anyone would prefer FO3.
Fallout 3 offers you the giant robot screaming about how it will defeat communism fighting against the Enclave, meaning the PURE American values dealing with the "corrupt" US government as represented by the Enclave, so I can see why libertarians would prefer it.
To be fair that is a fucking legendary moment in FO3, even if it really doesn't fit what Fallout is 'supposed' to be. Watching Liberty Prime fuck people up is endlessly entertaining.

It is too bad that you waste dozens of hours on a crap game for one of its very few "highlights".
 
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Trashos

Arcane
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Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Similarly, I don't feel the individual quests taken in isolation are that much better than FO3 - I actually find them in general LESS interesting - but they connect better in the global world, whether they kind of float in a bubble in FO3. This gives the quests an extra purpose they don't have in FO3.

New Vegas has some impressive quests. I was very impressed by the Boomers questline or I Put a Spell on You, for example. Many others too.

What quest impressed you in FO3? I do not remember much of FO3 (I played it very little and hated it), but I will try to look it up.
 

Duralux for Durabux

Guest
New Vegas has some impressive quests. I was very impressed by the Boomers questline or I Put a Spell on You, for example. Many others too.

What quest impressed you in FO3? I do not remember much of FO3 (I played it very little and hated it), but I will try to look it up.
Even your brain want to kick out this shit out of your mind. it should means something.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,604
Similarly, I don't feel the individual quests taken in isolation are that much better than FO3 - I actually find them in general LESS interesting - but they connect better in the global world, whether they kind of float in a bubble in FO3. This gives the quests an extra purpose they don't have in FO3.

New Vegas has some impressive quests. I was very impressed by the Boomers questline or I Put a Spell on You, for example. Many others too.

What quest impressed you in FO3? I do not remember much of FO3 (I played it very little and hated it), but I will try to look it up.
The Boomer questline about recovering the crashed bomber was great indeed. I had to check "I put a spell on you" on the wiki and yes I remember this one but not particularly fondly. It felt inorganic.

On FO3, I remember fondly Those! (maybe because I remember the ant dungeon, and this maybe because I found that the beginning of FO3 is harder than the beginning of FNV and I was totally out of ammo so high pressure dungeon), the one with the vampires (though yes I assume that lore wise it is a huge no-no) , the Tenpenny tower questline with the shock value of the ghouls actually killing the residents, the one where you try to find the replicant, and finally the one where you need to help someone escape from a supermutant prison (which gave me fond memories of me trying to escape for the Master prison back in FO1 10 years earlier in my first run). I also remember the one quest in the fake city from the 50ies, but it is part of the main quest, and the questline in Oasis but I can't remember if I liked it or not.

For FNV non-DLC, I remember some quests, but rarely fondly. The one that really stuck to mind positively is the one where you are trying to stop the assassination on the Hover Dam of the NCR President, there is also this one where you try to avoid to infiltrate a night club and it was really interesting trying to do it sneaky-sneaky and finally the "Can Ghouls do into space" quest (and even then it was not that interesting, except for the finale), but apart from that, errr - I draw blank. I had forgotten the boomer questline and yes it was cool. I remember most of the other quests as being "kill that guy" or "clean up that place".
 
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Trashos

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Dec 28, 2015
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I had to check "I put a spell on you" on the wiki and yes I remember this one but not particularly fondly. It felt inorganic.

Not sure what is inorganic about it. Caesar has his people everywhere, even in the high ranks of the NCR, and they are trying to sabotage the NCR's infrastructure from within. Note that I usually do it from the Legion's perspective, where you have to break into the train (in the small window of the change of guard twice a day), plant a bomb, and also plant condemning evidence in a private's locker to frame him for the sabotage (after you murder him, so that he doesn't get the chance to defend himself). And this is only the quest from the Legion's side. This is legit one of the best quests I have ever seen in an RPG.

Yes, the Boomers' quest finale is glorious. But I will argue that the whole questline is very good, with different parts of it challenging your character in different ways. Entering the Boomers base from the main entrance is quite fun as well, trying to avoid the howitzers.

I am not a big fan of the ghouls quest, but at least sneaking around in the basement without killing any nightkin was kinda different. Bonus points for the quest making a difference in the endgame.

As for the FO3 quests, it would help me if you gave me the quest names.
 

ValeVelKal

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Aug 24, 2011
Messages
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I had to check "I put a spell on you" on the wiki and yes I remember this one but not particularly fondly. It felt inorganic.

Not sure what is inorganic about it. Caesar has his people everywhere, even in the high ranks of the NCR, and they are trying to sabotage the NCR's infrastructure from within. Note that I usually do it from the Legion's perspective, where you have to break into the train (in the small window of the change of guard twice a day), plant a bomb, and also plant condemning evidence in a private's locker to frame him for the sabotage (after you murder him, so that he doesn't get the chance to defend himself). And this is only the quest from the Legion's side. This is legit one of the best quests I have ever seen in an RPG.
Ah, I rarely replay games and certainly did not replay either FO3 or FNV, but yes I suppose done from Caesar side it must be great. I played as NCR (well, I tried Great Khans but the questline was clearly cut short) and finding the mole did not feel anything special.

Yes, the Boomers' quest finale is glorious. But I will argue that the whole questline is very good, with different parts of it challenging your character in different ways. Entering the Boomers base from the main entrance is quite fun as well, trying to avoid the howitzers.
Entering the boomer base was fun. I also remember very well the kid explaining you Boomer history - cool part [as is the unrelated museum where a bot explains you "bot history"]. Apart from that, I don't remember much of the questline except the final part. I think I already had the respirator when I arrived.


As for the FO3 quests, it would help me if you gave me the quest names.

Hmm
Vampire : "Blood Ties"
Tenpenny Tower : "Tenpenny Tower" :)
The ants : "Those"
Replicant : "The replicated man"
Supermutant escape : "Big Trouble at Big Town"
Fake city froom the 50 : "Tranquility Lane"
 
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Black Angel

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Jun 23, 2016
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I remember fondly Those! (maybe because I remember the ant dungeon, and this maybe because I found that the beginning of FO3 is harder than the beginning of FNV and I was totally out of ammo so high pressure dungeon),
Only a little better than New Vegas's Can You Find it in Your Heart? due to branching and flavor.

the one with the vampires (though yes I assume that lore wise it is a huge no-no),
Disgusting.

the Tenpenny tower questline with the shock value of the ghouls actually killing the residents,
Ew, I bet you came from Three-Dog sucking your dick over the radio after you fucked the tower's residents by letting ghouls inside.

the one where you try to find the replicant,
Its only redeeming quality was that it teased the Institute, finally some semblance of progress in the East Coast wasteland, akin to the Shi of San Francisco. Unfortunately, Bethesda fucked it up in Fallout 4.

and finally the one where you need to help someone escape from a supermutant prison.
What, Big Trouble in Big Town? I'd argue the best part was actually training them to deal with the orcs attacks.

I also remember the one quest in the fake city from the 50ies,
I'm indifferent to the Tranquility Lane quest, but I think it would be much better if they gave players options to deal with it without having to enter the simulation.

the questline in Oasis but I can't remember if I liked it or not.
A blasphemy to Tim Cain's legacy.

For FNV, I remember some quests, but rarely fondly. The one that really stuck to mind positively is the one where you are trying to stop the assassination on the Hover Dam of the NCR President, there is also this one where you try to avoid to infiltrate a night club and it was really interesting trying to do it sneaky-sneaky and finally the "Can Ghouls do into space" quest (and even then it was not that interesting, except for the finale), but apart from that, errr - I draw blank. I had forgotten the boomer questline and yes it was cool. I remember most of the other quests as being "kill that guy" or "clean up that place".
What a roundabout way to declare that you're a
bethestard.png
 

Trashos

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Dec 28, 2015
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I think I already had the respirator when I arrived.

Impossible, unless some mod did it. You only get the respirator near the end of the Boomers questline, once they ask you to bring up the Lady in the Water.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,604
I think I already had the respirator when I arrived.

Impossible, unless some mod did it. You only get the respirator near the end of the Boomers questline, once they ask you to bring up the Lady in the Water.
I usually don't mod, checking the wiki page I guess I did not remember correctly ; either because I had Science 45 so getting the rebreather took me only a couple minutes, or because I actually dived without rebreather. I remember taking some time to locate where to put the ballasts, which is consistant with me resurfacing quite often and having a few seconds "down there" each time.
 

Black Angel

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What a roundabout way to declare that you're a
bethestard.png
For someone who loathe FO3 you sure seem to remember it well. How many times did you play it ?
Precisely because I loathed FO3 with every fiber of my being that I remembered it all too well. So I tried my best playing good stuff to forget them. Only from glancing at your shortened explanations that I invoked unpleasant memories.

Luckily I only finished FO3 once, a long time ago before I carried on with New Vegas. I once tried getting back into FO3 by playing it through the superior engine iteration of New Vegas via Tale of Two Wasteland mod, and it was at that time I found how much I loathed FO3.
 

ValeVelKal

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Messages
1,604
What a roundabout way to declare that you're a
bethestard.png
For someone who loathe FO3 you sure seem to remember it well. How many times did you play it ?
Precisely because I loathed FO3 with every fiber of my being that I remembered it all too well. So I tried my best playing good stuff to forget them. Only from glancing at your shortened explanations that I invoked unpleasant memories.

Luckily I only finished FO3 once, a long time ago before I carried on with New Vegas. I once tried getting back into FO3 by playing it through the superior engine iteration of New Vegas via Tale of Two Wasteland mod, and it was at that time I found how much I loathed FO3.
So you played or tried to play FO3 twice and only found out you really loathed the game the second time ?

Maybe you should be less definitive on people who only played it once and never tried to play it a second time.
 
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Black Angel

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So you played or tried to play FO3 twice and only found out you really loathed the game the second time ?

Maybe you should be less definitive on people who only played it once and never tried to play it a second time.
Oh we haven't met before, then.

My first Fallout was actually Fallout 3. There, have you understand my case?
 

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