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For JA2 veterans

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
20,856
Location
is cold
Few questions mainly about stat crunching.
I've restarted UC campaign (great mod btw) since the first playthrough was lost along with the dead disk drive and decided to have gamist approach to stat development of my IMP so that to make DAS ULTIMATISCHE UBERMENSCH.

1. Is there any other way to up the Wis except planting/defusing bombs? I managed to get it from 85 to 95 by maxing out explosives relatively quickly. Never saw wisdom rising any other way. Is it even possible to max it out?

2. Health. I always set it to 85 as i have never ever managed to rise it not even by one point. Have read that it can increase by a) overloading the merc and having him travel between sectors, b) after sustaining heavy injuries and healing up health randomly increases. Never had that.

3. Agility. One way it surely increases is by avoiding blows in melee, but i'm not sure about exact mechanism of stealth walking/crouching/crawling. I've noticed it increases when i spot the enemy, while not being spotted myself while in stealth mode, but what are the various variables that effects how fast and efficient agility is trained?
What else besides action points does agility affect. Granted, it helps avoiding punches. Also, i've noticed that even at initial 85 points which i always put in agility, i have the maximum 25 APs when in full health so i guess training it above that isn't really that worthwhile?

4. Leadership. Does it affect anything but training militia? There supposed to be some NPC dialogue checks that opens up few possibilities with high leadership, but i don't remember i've noticed that playing both original JA2, DL and UC. Any examples?

5. Are 'heavy weapons' only rocket launchers and bazookas/mortars or do they also include heavy machine guns and anything else?
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Initial Design should be around 60. Then Mining it to max, or until you get bored. Train WIS from the range of 35 - 50 is too much like work. WIS could rise if you sniping alot, or do the doctor thing, but all in all, mining is the most efficient way to train. 100% TNT is best :yeah:

STR is the dump stat of choice. Get several bags full of equipment. Load your poor bastard down to 1000% overloaded. "ON YOUR FEET MAGGOTS! RUN, RUN TO THE END OF RANGE! YOU CAN SLOW DOWN WHEN YOU ARE DEAD! ON MY WORDS I NEVER SAW SUCH PRIME PUSSY LIKE THIS. RUN RUN RUN!" And force them to run until they drop. The sector move trick is good but nothing as satisfying as watching mules running around increase their strength to high. The key is 1000% or more of overloaded.

Heavy Weapons: Mortar, Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher. That's it, I think.
 

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
Joined
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Messages
20,856
Location
is cold
What is ''mining''? And i train STR by crowbaring containers, punching enemies and... cow.:D What i was wndering was Health. That doesn't seem to go up, though i really never overloaded anyone to 1000%. With such a load i think they fall unconscious after couple of steps anyway.

Wisdom should always be 85. Never saw it go up while sniping. Maybe it doesn't anymore at such high level.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
agility is pretty important for interrupts i believe.

Marksmanship and agility can be trained by throwing knives at crows, if you're into that sort of thing.
I only saw wisdom go up when grinding explosives absurdly. Doesn't seem very 'wise' does it?
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,382
@OP, JA2 uses quite complex calculations, some of them use many stats at the same time. If you do a little bit of digging at the Bear's Pit you may even find some stuff directly taken from the game's code.
A recent JA2 1.13 has the option to toggle on the display of stat and skill improvement progress, so this may help you see what's the best way to improve them.

4. Leadership. Does it affect anything but training militia? There supposed to be some NPC dialogue checks that opens up few possibilities with high leadership, but i don't remember i've noticed that playing both original JA2, DL and UC. Any examples?
Yeah, it affects some dialogues. e.g. you won't into Kingpin's bar with low LDR. There's a few more, but yeah, they're not that frequent and don't rerquire much more than 60. Generally, you'l notice it when all your guys have abyssman leadership.
It also allows you to recruit a few guys, like Devin and Vince. It's marginally useful.
In Ja1.13 it's also trained when ordering militia around. It may affect the effectiveness of yoru orders in some way, but I never noticed.

3. Agility. One way it surely increases is by avoiding blows in melee, but i'm not sure about exact mechanism of stealth walking/crouching/crawling. I've noticed it increases when i spot the enemy, while not being spotted myself while in stealth mode, but what are the various variables that effects how fast and efficient agility is trained?
I don't think it's about spotting, IIRC the formula is directly tied to the amount of APs you spend when sneaking, so your best bet is to keep sneaking around in turn based. Still, melee is still the fastest.

1. Is there any other way to up the Wis except planting/defusing bombs? I managed to get it from 85 to 95 by maxing out explosives relatively quickly. Never saw wisdom rising any other way. Is it even possible to max it out?
It seems that WIS increases when you increase other stats, but the effect is barely noticeable. Your best bet is defusing bombs. And not just any bombs, it has to be an explosive with a remote detonator (which means you need some 80+ EXP first).
To the best of my knowledge, that's the only way to do it reliably.

As you probably noticed, skills (mechanical, marksmanship, medical, explosives, leadership) train up very easily, so if you really wish to cheese it, keep them as low as possible (but not too low - with very low values you'll have a hard time getting the ball rolling, e.g. with less than 35 EXP, you won't be able to disarm simplest mines, so you will only be able to raise that skill by having some other guy bury them for you, then reload the game and flag these mines).
The physical stats is where it gets difficult, and out of the whole bunch it's easiest to train WIS, DEX and STR, so pump everything else and keep these low.
STR is easily raised by crowbarring stuff and punching cows, cars, etc. DEX will rise pretty fast when you do repair and doctor stuff.
There's more than one way to increase these stats, so mix and match, because you're in for a tedious time if you wish to go full OCD.

Personally, I advise against doing it too much. It's fine if you wish to make a goofball squad of mercs you never really used before, otherwise it's a good way to get fed up with the otherwise great game.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
Keeping the starting skills low is also good to gain the most important stat, experience level, quicker, since it's raised whenever you've raised your other stats enough - and skills that are low, are the easiest to get up fast.
 

Phelot

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
17,908
I've had health increase before. TBH, I don't really know what caused it to increase, though I want to say it was by them getting injured and healed. Could it be tied to carrying heavy loads around? I know that increases strength. In any case, I usually have my IMP get around 70 HP since I try not to risk him too much.

You need decent Leadership to get Skyrider to follow you, too.

I've gotten Wisdom to increase a number of times, but again, not sure how. It seems like Ira gets a lot of increases to stats, so there is likely some truth to the idea that low stats that rise quickly leads to an increase in Wisdom.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
I don't see increasing wisdom as important in any case, though. What does the stat do except makes other stats go up faster? It does matter whether it's 50 or 70 or 85, it should be a concrete increase in stat gains - but training it from, say, 85 to 90 - a ~6% increase in stat growth, that's barely noticeable even if you go hardcore stat grinding afterwards. Faster to focus on the stats that actually do something, if you want to do that instead of just playing the game.


Oh and I remember Hamous refusing to join when I encountered him with a poor Leadership merc.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,382
It's more of a completionist thing I guess, but the difference between wis 70 and 85 is notriceable, especially in a normal game when you do not attempt to grind. and even if you grind, it makes is a bit less tedious.
With regards to health, one safe way to train it I know of is to travel (actually send people out, not just run around to deplete stamina) when encumbered.
 

Phelot

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
17,908
Is it worth using the 1.13 patch/mod if it's your first time playing? I recall that it has enemy reinforcements extending the length and difficulty of the missions.

No, I wouldn't install it for the first time since it drastically changes things and there isn't any easy way to make it more vanilla. IIRC the last patch for vanilla was fine. TBH, 1.13's gun porn, while awesome, severely breaks the game's balance unless you mod it yourself or use willpower not to use certain weapons. Plus, it does some funky things to the AI


EDIT: As for Wisdom, I've noticed that someone like Gasket who is a retard doesn't gain mechanical as fast even though I typically have him 24/7 repairing crap while Barry does seem to increase it rather quickly. This is all my going off memory, though. Also, I guess the higher the skill, the slower it increases, so that might be a factor since Gasket has a pretty good mech skill starting.
 

Father Walker

Potato Ranger
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,282
Is it worth using the 1.13 patch/mod if it's your first time playing? I recall that it has enemy reinforcements extending the length and difficulty of the missions.

No. Vanilla JA2 is a damn good game. Newer releases of 1.13 affect various fundamental mechanics of the game, often in a not-so-good way. 1.13 has lots of great features, but as a whole, it's a clusterfuck with broken AI.
 

Phelot

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
17,908
I always play with 1.13 at this point I'm so used to it even though, as andrzej says, it is pretty well fucked with the AI. Once you go 1.13 you never go back, I guess :lol:

Never played Unfinished Business, but it seems like people only trash it so I haven't bothered to seek it out.

I have the Gold edition which came with Wildfire, which IIRC is some fan made expansion pack or something. At the time, I was just getting into Vanilla and found WF insanely difficult, but now that I think about it, it'd be interesting to try again.

Anyone else recall it?
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
There's only one official expansion, the rest are more like mods/re-releases. The expansion pack is a linear quest where you buy mercs permanently, and it has several map/AI issues. Plus there's some bugs that can prevent finishing the game if you stumble upon them, which fan patches might have gotten rid of.

Health does get increased when damaged, and you don't have to be massively damaged, you also get it by being damaged frequently for a little. I've had health increase by +5 on some characters from only damage.

You also gain Wisdom from healing people. And it's supposed to have some effect on healing ability.

However, I've never delved into the actual stat numbers, and I do seem to remember that something that was in the rulebook didn't make it into the game, but it was put in in the series of patches that eventually became 1.13. You could probably find out exactly what at the Bear Pit, though they have reformed a couple times.

Wildfire - like a mod - revamps maps (as in completely redoes some of them), adds items (nowhere near as much as 1.13 does), and changes enemies, and that's it. The maps can be prettier, but none of the new maps or items feel as if they have been retested for balance/AI issues. Vanilla is a much tighter game.
 

Father Walker

Potato Ranger
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,282
When you guys replay JA2, do you use 1.13 or go vanilla? Also, I should steer clear of the expansions, yes?

Well, I stopped playing 1.13. When I want to play JA2, I play a battle or two in 1.12. It's elegant, not overloaded with useless stuff and actually feels more difficult.

I have some really ancient 1.13 releases somewhere on my PC (as I've said, 1.13's quality drops lower with each release), just in case I want to give it a spin. Not that it's going to happen any soon.

As of expansions.

Unfinished Business is basically a short, linear campaign. It wasn't as compelling as JA2 and I didn't finish it to be honest.

Wildfire is basically a polished and commercially released version of a mod. It changes some stuff, has new maps and is harder than the original. Not sure if it's worth to play it before original game.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,828
Hm, I never had problems with raising the WIS stat, it goes up naturally as you progress through the game.

Here's my current LARPing merc, savegame right infront of Deidranna - I only did some exercise and training on explosives and mechanical skills a bit -

ja22012-06-1408-01-40ovfsb.png


The merc was used a lot in a tiny team, so that explains the experience. :P The only thing I am always having problems with in raising is the health stat - I know health gets raised when you travel overloaded on the "worldmap", but it's so goddamn slow. :<


SCO said:
agility is pretty important for interrupts i believe.

For interrupts, the experience level is checked against, the higher this level, the better the chance for you getting a positive interrupt.
Agility gets quickly raised through sneaking around, Marksmanship can be trained pretty quickly up to 60, then give the merc a rifle with some mods so he will actually hit enemies often, then the stat goes up quickly. Dexterity gets raised by landing hard to hit shots aswell. STR can be raised by using melee weapons too. I always excessively use the Leadership stuff as you can see above, it raises very fast and you will get a lot WIS points for it.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
AGI: low if you want to train the with bugs. If not, get it into 80 range.
DEX: generally 80, since it's pretty hard to train it.
STR: low. You can get upto 70 very easily with my method. No need to get it high intially.
LDR: one high, otherwise 35 is enough. Slow to train.
WIS: 60. train from 35-50 is goddam too much work. Train with explosive to 90 and let the rest increase normally when you train/do other stuff. Second thing to train after EXPLOSIVE.
MRK: low. It's also easy to train with high WIS. Throwing knives at crows are reasonably efficient.
EXP: low. From low you need mines to train upto middling high, just setting the mine and use one good explosive merc to disarm. From middling high you can start arm the explosive and disarm it with great EXP merc. When you get higher you can disarm yourself. Train with 100% stuffs. Train it first then WIS.
MEC: slow and expensive to train. It's better to just set it middling-high then forget about it.
MED: expensive to train. Hit cow/merc then bandage. It's better to just set it middling-high then forget about it.

One good method to train is Robbery. You sneak/run to the target, hit him with bare hands (to minimize damage) 4 times, then CTRL click him to rob him of his weapon (easier when he's lying on the ground). Next turn continue to pummel him until he's dead. Hit in melee 4 times to minimize his stamina, that's the key. meanwhile other guys crawling around that prone figure to train AGI.

My bootcamp method, as mentioned above.

snipe at him at one AP-cost, to train sniping.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
For how long, chap? And initially to middle stage, our mercenary's time is too valuable to tie up in training it that way. It's better to import the good trainers in to do the job (train militia) quickly.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,828
Hm, never had the problem that it took too much time, plus you don't have to pay any ongoing costs for the initial "avatar" merc, Ira and Dimitry don't need Money either so I try to train them up right at the beginning as good as I can so they become useful for times when I am running out of money and can't afford the big names from AIM.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
Hm, I never had problems with raising the WIS stat, it goes up naturally as you progress through the game.

Here's my current LARPing merc, savegame right infront of Deidranna - I only did some exercise and training on explosives and mechanical skills a bit -

ja22012-06-1408-01-40ovfsb.png


The merc was used a lot in a tiny team, so that explains the experience. :P The only thing I am always having problems with in raising is the health stat - I know health gets raised when you travel overloaded on the "worldmap", but it's so goddamn slow. :<


SCO said:
agility is pretty important for interrupts i believe.

For interrupts, the experience level is checked against, the higher this level, the better the chance for you getting a positive interrupt.
Agility gets quickly raised through sneaking around, Marksmanship can be trained pretty quickly up to 60, then give the merc a rifle with some mods so he will actually hit enemies often, then the stat goes up quickly. Dexterity gets raised by landing hard to hit shots aswell. STR can be raised by using melee weapons too. I always excessively use the Leadership stuff as you can see above, it raises very fast and you will get a lot WIS points for it.

How do you have such a godly stats on your merc if you only did some exercise and training on explosive and mechanical skills a bit??? You just played through the game and at the end you had this stats without killing crows, cows, exploiting training etc? I.e. you played the game normally?
 

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