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FPS essentials

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
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Not really. Stalker is full of stupid design, but it's forgiven because the rest is as great as it is. Or do you actually like MMO filler quests and shitty itemization that makes myths about broken difficulty settings seem entirely believable? And of course, the obligatory last-third-rushed-directly-into-the-trash that every game must have.
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,132
Well, since people repeat largely the same titles, I might as well post my list, excluding a number of shooters I do like but which don't quite qualify in terms of gameplay alone.

Doom
Doom II
Star Wars: Dark Forces (it starts very well and has some great levels, but the combat is too basic to hold up for the whole game)
Duke Nukem 3D
Quake

Turok: Dinosaur Hunter
Shadow Warrior
Blood

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Quake II
Unreal
Sin
Half-Life

Medal of Honor
Unreal Tournament
Medal of Honor: Underground
Serious Sam: The First Encounter
Serious Sam: The Second Encounter

Postal 2
Far Cry
Painkiller
Doom 3
Half-Life 2
F.E.A.R.: First Encounter Assault Recon
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl (doesn't get into its own until the player acquires decent weapons that don't have pseudo-RPG progression built into the weapons' statistics)
Serious Sam 3: BFE

Not sure whether to include the Metro games or not. On the one hand the feel of the weapons and the combat sections felt at times remarkably good, but the amount of the more heavy-handed story-telling, taking away player's control in the midst of gameplay, quick-time events, and such-like make it difficult to decide if they qualify.


Popular mentions I have misgivings about:

Heretic – the Tome of Power is fun, but the combat overall just isn't that good compared to Doom's

Hexen – nice atmosphere, I like the level design, the weapons and their animations feel very good, but the combat still ends up being rather simplistic and repetitive

Doom 64 – it has a good style, but it's hardly anywhere close to the PC Dooms in terms of gameplay

Hexen II – nice atmosphere and some interesting, albeit more limited, exploration again, but the small scale of the encounters and the toughness of the enemies make the game have very poor flow (in combination with its exploration-oriented nature)

Turok 2: Seeds of Evil – certain basics about the combat are quite fun, but the game feels strange, the levels are these protracted, labyrinthine configurations of the same assets, which makes the whole feels somehow more constricting compared to the original

Soldier of Fortune – I liked the gore and how powerful the weapons felt, but the combat itself is only moderately engaging, while the level design is largely reducible to a series of perpendicularly arranged small corridors

The Operative: No One Lives Forever – it's a fun game with a distinctive identity as a whole, but as a shooter it's very basic; in theory there's a variety of weapons, there are silencers and gadgets, but in practice it comes down to the most rudimentary exchange of fire where you can lay flat a whole group of advancing enemies in a single burst (as they often run in almost the same space, clipping through one another)

Return to Castle Wolfenstein – I first played it when I was still pretty bad at shooters, so it might be that, but when I replayed it recently up to the factory mission I felt the game didn't have a very good flow or interesting encounter design; the hit-scan combat which people usually criticize in later games doesn't involve interesting enemy attack patterns or much tension; things like the special forces units, cool-downs on certain weapons, or some enemies carrying shields were nice; I'd like to like it as the premise is nice, but it felt like the 2009 Wolfenstein had better gameplay, while not handling the premise that well (generally, the Nazi occult theme is hardly ever handled well; BloodRayne was somewhat better in this respect)

XIII – not mentioned much, I thought about it myself, but I can't remember if it was very good as a shooter

Quake 4 – contrary to what is sometimes said, it's not like old school shooters, it belongs fully in that period of more scripted, corridor-bound, brown-grey-dark shooters that followed the 90s and early hit-scan period; worse than that, it was also made with consoles in mind and it bears marks of that kind of design
 
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luj1

You're all shills
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Quake 4 – contrary to what is sometimes no said, it's not like old school shooters, it belongs fully in that period of more scripted, corridor-bound, brown-grey-dark shooters that followed the 90s and early hit-scan period; worse than that, it was also made with consoles in mind and it bears marks of that kind of design

Quake 4 belongs with Republic Commando in the trash bin
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
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NOLF, WOLF and RotCW need to be on a FPS essential list
I just don't see how the FPS aspect of NOLF on its own can measure up to the standards of purer shooters. Sure, the weapons are varied and look and sound nice, the mechanics on the player's side involve things like armour and recoil, but the shoot-outs themselves get resolved in a matter of seconds if you choose the direct approach when possible. It's a fun game because of the combination of elements it brings together.

Wolfenstein 3D has a deserved place as a chief progenitor of the genre, but it's too simplistic to be engaging now, at least for longer than a few levels. I'm not holding its technology or supposed ‘outdatedness’ against it either—I got into Doom, Quake, and the Build games only in the more recent years and I didn't have any reservations about them.

I'd readily place those as well as many others on a more general list of good or fun or simply interesting shooters.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
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I guess you are right

WOLF for historical reasons only

I just don't see how the FPS aspect of NOLF on its own can measure up to the standards of purer shooters.

First shooter with RPG elements?
 
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schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,132
Is it one? Or would it be the first one? Wouldn't that title rather go to System Shock 2 or something less well known (ShadowCaster?).
 

BLOBERT

FUCKING SLAYINGN IT BROS
Patron
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Codex 2012
Well, since people repeat largely the same titles, I might as well post my list, excluding a number of shooters I do like but which don't quite qualify in terms of gameplay alone.

Doom
Doom II
Star Wars: Dark Forces (it starts very well and has some great levels, but the combat is too basic to hold up for the whole game)
Duke Nukem 3D
Quake

Turok: Dinosaur Hunter
Shadow Warrior
Blood

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Quake II
Unreal
Sin
Half-Life

Medal of Honor
Unreal Tournament
Medal of Honor: Underground
Serious Sam: The First Encounter
Serious Sam: The Second Encounter

Postal 2
Far Cry
Painkiller
Doom 3
Half-Life 2
F.E.A.R.: First Encounter Assault Recon
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl (doesn't get into its own until the player acquires decent weapons that don't have pseudo-RPG progression built into the weapons' statistics)
Serious Sam 3: BFE

Not sure whether to include the Metro games or not. On the one hand the feel of the weapons and the combat sections felt at times remarkably good, but the amount of the more heavy-handed story-telling, taking away player's control in the midst of gameplay, quick-time events, and such-like make it difficult to decide if they qualify.


Popular mentions I have misgivings about:

Heretic – the Tome of Power is fun, but the combat overall just isn't that good compared to Doom's

Hexen – nice atmosphere, I like the level design, the weapons and their animations feel very good, but the combat still ends up being rather simplistic and repetitive

Doom 64 – it has a good style, but it's hardly anywhere close to the PC Dooms in terms of gameplay

Hexen II – nice atmosphere and some interesting, albeit more limited, exploration again, but the small scale of the encounters and the toughness of the enemies make the game have very poor flow (in combination with its exploration-oriented nature)

Turok 2: Seeds of Evil – certain basics about the combat are quite fun, but the game feels strange, the levels are these protracted, labyrinthine configurations of the same assets, which makes the whole feels somehow more constricting compared to the original

Soldier of Fortune – I liked the gore and how powerful the weapons felt, but the combat itself is only moderately engaging, while the level design is largely reducible to a series of perpendicularly arranged small corridors

The Operative: No One Lives Forever – it's a fun game with a distinctive identity as a whole, but as a shooter it's very basic; in theory there's a variety of weapons, there are silencers and gadgets, but in practice it comes down to the most rudimentary exchange of fire where you can lay flat a whole group of advancing enemies in a single burst (as they often run in almost the same space, clipping through one another)

Return to Castle Wolfenstein – I first played it when I was still pretty bad at shooters, so it might be that, but when I replayed it recently up to the factory mission I felt the game didn't have a very good flow or interesting encounter design; the hit-scan combat which people usually criticize in later games doesn't involve interesting enemy attack patterns or much tension; things like the special forces units, cool-downs on certain weapons, or some enemies carrying shields were nice; I'd like to like it as the premise is nice, but it felt like the 2009 Wolfenstein had better gameplay, while not handling the premise that well (generally, the Nazi occult theme is hardly ever handled well; BloodRayne was somewhat better in this respect)

XIII – not mentioned much, I thought about it myself, but I can't remember if it was very good as a shooter

Quake 4 – contrary to what is sometimes no said, it's not like old school shooters, it belongs fully in that period of more scripted, corridor-bound, brown-grey-dark shooters that followed the 90s and early hit-scan period; worse than that, it was also made with consoles in mind and it bears marks of that kind of design

BRO SUPER BROFISTS FOR YOUR LIST PLAYED MOST AND AGREE

FUCK PCTARDS AND ILL ADD HALO

THE WIDE OPEN ENVIRONMENTS AND VEHICLES SHIT WITH DECENT AI MADE REPEAT ENCOUNTERS FUN

FUCK PCTARDS PART 2 GOLDENEYE AND PERFECT DARK FOR THE N64 WERE SLOW AS FUCK FOR RETARTED CONTROLS BUT HAD LOCALIZED DAMAGE WITH CORRESPONDING ANIMATION AND SHOOTING OUT LIGHTS AND SHIT BEFORE MOST OTHER GAMES
 

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,640
Location
The Centre of the World
SS2 doesn't really have shooter gameplay
In what way? I spent the whole game running and flipping around to fight instantly respawning enemies, which is more than can said about many shooters. Now, if you said SS1, that'd make sense, since that's a point-and-click first-person adventure-shooter game.
 

El Presidente

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
1,567
Location
Oval Office
I have an
sfJyvtZ.jpg
"at this point, I'm too afraid to ask" question since forever, maybe I'm retarded or something but, does Quake 3 have single player content? My understanding is that it doesn't so I completely skipped the Quake 3 boat back then. Is it worth grabbing on GOG to play alone, if that's even a possibility?
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,132
I have an
sfJyvtZ.jpg
"at this point, I'm too afraid to ask" question since forever, maybe I'm retarded or something but, does Quake 3 have single player content? My understanding is that it doesn't so I completely skipped the Quake 3 boat back then. Is it worth grabbing on GOG to play alone, if that's even a possibility?
It does have bots and a basic single-player campaign with them, but it's just boring. Unreal Tournament on the other hand is quite fun to play with bots.
 

Riskbreaker

Guest
Turok 2: Seeds of Evil – certain basics about the combat are quite fun, but the game feels strange, the levels are these protracted, labyrinthine configurations of the same assets, which makes the whole feels somehow more constricting compared to the original
The original had these huge seamless levels with fantastic sense of scale whereas the second one cut its levels into numerous subsections connected by those teleport things. So not only is it a labyrinth, it's one that is cut into many isolated pieces. It can be pain in the ass to navigate. I can only imagine that this was necessitated by the jump in detail on N64's hardware but I don't think that the tradeoff was worth it.
I managed to finish Turok 1 remaster even with it's own issues but I couldn't force myself to replay Turok 2.
 

Drop Duck

Learned
Joined
Dec 22, 2020
Messages
687
Cryostasis is like Penumbra but with actual combat. Cool game
Cryostasis does a couple of things and it does them well, very focused on atmosphere through both art and graphics and telling a story. As far as shooters that have removed themselves from the arcade-like roots since Half-Life go it is one of the best. The gameplay is slow and clunky, but it seems to be intentional. It's very much an apples and oranges ordeal when you compare Doom-style shooters with offerings like this one and the category does both types of games a disservice by comparing them.
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,132
I don't think it ought to be on the list, mate. It was fine as a tech demo back in the day but the gameplay hasn't held up.
Gameplay is precisely what I'm recommending it for. I didn't like it the first time I played it, but when I returned to it several years layer, I found it to be one of the better shooters ever, especially when it comes to the semi-realistic category. It has a very good difficulty balance and the check-points do a good job of sustaining a measure of tension: the enemies can kill you fairly quickly if you play poorly and they're quite mobile while also having a number of other basic patterns of behaviour; the areas where larger encounters take place are open, but also divided into smaller paths that make the level design fairly interesting; the player can dispatch the enemies easily if he's accurate, but controlling the recoil takes a bit of skill; finally, the mutants are nicely aggressive and powerful, with attack patterns that are quite unusual for this kind of a shooter.

I'd recommend replaying it to see again it it really doesn't hold up. The 64-bit version shouldn't be used though as it was probably rushed and has some broken encounter scripts. For the graphics, it also seems like something needs to be done to make the water reflections work on current systems; perhaps it can be done with dgVoodoo if the performance won't be too poor, since it supports Direct3D 9 now.
 

Drop Duck

Learned
Joined
Dec 22, 2020
Messages
687
Gameplay is precisely what I'm recommending it for. I didn't like it the first time I played it, but when I returned to it several years layer, I found it to be one of the better shooters ever, especially when it comes to the semi-realistic category. It has a very good difficulty balance and the check-points do a good job of sustaining a measure of tension: the enemies can kill you fairly quickly if you play poorly and they're quite mobile while also having a number of other basic patterns of behaviour; the areas where larger encounters take place are open, but also divided into smaller paths that make the level design fairly interesting; the player can dispatch the enemies easily if he's accurate, but controlling the recoil takes a bit of skill; finally, the mutants are nicely aggressive and powerful, with attack patterns that are quite unusual for this kind of a shooter.
In many ways it was a prototype for what would later become the infamous Ubisoft bandit camps or whatever they are called, the filler content in their games. I don't think that kind of game occupies a high position within the shooter genre. I'm going to ignore the leaping mutant monkey in the room and how the game goes to hell in a handbasket later on and focus on the combat of the good parts. First off, the guns feel floaty and aren't satisfying to use, it's important for shooters to get this right, and in the case of Far Cry I would say that it absolutely doesn't. Then there are the encounters, you tag enemies from a distance, the stealth is very poor compared to actual stealth games, the map is realistic enough that you don't get much cover and the layouts aren't that interesting, it's too open, which means no matter how you approach the enemy it feels samey. It's not like in F.E.A.R. where you might take a vent to pop up above the enemy, or anything like that. On the other hand the game does not pursue combat sim realism either, it's not Operation Flashpoint, it's not Hidden & Dangerous, it's not SWAT or Rainbow Six. The AI is also broken in that it can easily see you through foliage in the jungle when you can't see them.

I had the opposite curve, I played through the game on release and was impressed, but when I returned a year ago or so it turns out the gameplay just wasn't fun or satisfying. In fact even the jankiest and most half-assed shooters I can think of are higher on my list than Far Cry. I'd rather replay Nitro Family than going through the bland pain of Far Cry again.
 

schru

Arcane
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Messages
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Gameplay is precisely what I'm recommending it for. I didn't like it the first time I played it, but when I returned to it several years layer, I found it to be one of the better shooters ever, especially when it comes to the semi-realistic category. It has a very good difficulty balance and the check-points do a good job of sustaining a measure of tension: the enemies can kill you fairly quickly if you play poorly and they're quite mobile while also having a number of other basic patterns of behaviour; the areas where larger encounters take place are open, but also divided into smaller paths that make the level design fairly interesting; the player can dispatch the enemies easily if he's accurate, but controlling the recoil takes a bit of skill; finally, the mutants are nicely aggressive and powerful, with attack patterns that are quite unusual for this kind of a shooter.


In many ways it was a prototype for what would later become the infamous Ubisoft bandit camps or whatever they are called, the filler content in their games. I don't think that kind of game occupies a high position within the shooter genre. I'm going to ignore the leaping mutant monkey in the room and how the game goes to hell in a handbasket later on and focus on the combat of the good parts. First off, the guns feel floaty and aren't satisfying to use, it's important for shooters to get this right, and in the case of Far Cry I would say that it absolutely doesn't. Then there are the encounters, you tag enemies from a distance, the stealth is very poor compared to actual stealth games, the map is realistic enough that you don't get much cover and the layouts aren't that interesting, it's too open, which means no matter how you approach the enemy it feels samey. It's not like in F.E.A.R. where you might take a vent to pop up above the enemy, or anything like that. On the other hand the game does not pursue combat sim realism either, it's not Operation Flashpoint, it's not Hidden & Dangerous, it's not SWAT or Rainbow Six. The AI is also broken in that it can easily see you through foliage in the jungle when you can't see them.

I had the opposite curve, I played through the game on release and was impressed, but when I returned a year ago or so it turns out the gameplay just wasn't fun or satisfying. In fact even the jankiest and most half-assed shooters I can think of are higher on my list than Far Cry. I'd rather replay Nitro Family than going through the bland pain of Far Cry again.
It has very little to do with Ubisoft's Far Crys, which can't really be considered to be sequels to the first game in any meaningful way. Ubisoft's FCs are indeed terrible in how they rely on filler content, respawning enemies, and rather a meaningless open-world approach. The original game doesn't have ‘filler’ any more than most other standard shooters have such content, unless you just want to refer to common enemy placement without too much scripting as such. The areas you traverse can't be considered filler content either, as they're all quite distinctive and designed with specific kinds of encounters in mind.

I'd say the weapons are pretty good, actually. The floatiness you're referring to perhaps has to do with how there's a certain amount of sway depending on the amount of movement or the player's stance, which is nice in that you have to put a bit more effort into aiming and how you move, and there's a nice pay-off for keeping focused instead of shooting around chaotically, but on the other hand it is also a nice feature in that there are more stressful situations where you can easily miss a bunch of shots and end up having to take cover or flee. And also, that kind of limitation on the player's accuracy makes more sense because of the size of many areas, where maintaining a pin-point accuracy like in the nineties shooters would just trivialize things. It was also one of the few shooters that required the player to take account of the recoil, which isn't good for all kinds of shooters, but appropriate for this quasi-realistic, but still fairly ‘casual’ style. The weapons themselves also look pretty nice and sound both powerful and satisfying, depending on the particular type.

The enemy tagging didn't play a big role in the game; you could do it with the binoculars, but the game wasn't insistent about doing it, nor was it that easy to locate and keep track of all the enemies. I do agree about the stealth, though, it's quite awful and non-functional most of the time, and the way the enemies can indeed see you through certain kinds of vegetation compounds the problem. The game certainly isn't without faults. Apart from that, however, the AI is actually quite good (save for the annoying bug when they shoot you without raising their weapons from the idle walking stance).

The open-air maps tend to be quite open indeed, but the shape and type of terrain are very diverse, as is the kind of vegetation growing on it. Combined with rather distinctive camp and larger facility designs, as well as the fact that player is at times given to option to use vehicles, sniper rifles, or take roundabout routes through water or jungle, I'd say there's a considerable variety of approaches; though granted, once the player is within a certain distance of enemies, the combat remains roughly the same. It also has decent indoors areas which are somewhat non-linear and they even some vents on occasion or other places to surprise enemies from. Not that F.E.A.R. doesn't do its own thing well.

When I said that Far Cry is ‘semi-realistic’ I didn't mean to compare it to simulation games, as it certainly isn't one and would benefit nothing from including their mechanics. It rather belongs to that late-nineties-to-early-2000s style of shooters that used realistic weapons, scenarios, and constrained the player's mobility somewhat, as well as making him more vulnerable to damage, but it were still intended to be very accessible and fast-paced.

The encounter design is very similar.
It's true enough that encounters in both games often take place in random huts or larger complexes guarded by mercenaries, which can be approached from multiple directions, but it's all much more loose and interchangeable in Ubisoft's FCs, while the original game has actual hand-crafted level and encounter design.

Edit: Forgot to add that I would also maintain that the mutants are very fun as enemies and they're an indispensable part of the game. They're one of the few instances of tough enemies (in terms of resilience or amount of health) that don't feel like tedious bullet sponges as it is possible to deal with them efficiently if the player chooses the right weapons and has a good aim; but at the same time they also add a fairly unique survival element to the game, and indeed, it's often possible to avoid them and they force the player to approach encounters in a more deliberate way.
 
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