Fucking ToEE, how does it work

[Darth Roxor]

I'm playing with Co8, ya

Well, that answers a share of your questions. That 'ambush outside with 15 dudes' is one part that's added with Co8, for instance.

 

[Smashing Axe]

The problem with Co8 is that the extra content gives you so much more experience and gold that the endgame is piss easy.

 

[Dangersaurus]

If you're spamming quick saves and loads then chances are you won't be able to finish the game anyway because of save corruption.

The final moathouse fight is very tough for the level you're generally at when you reach it, and Co8 for some godawful reason makes it tougher. Hate to suggest grinding, but spend some time wandering back and forth between Hommlett, Emridy Meadows and the Moathouse searching for wandering monsters until you're at least 5th level. Survival skill will help you pick your fights when you're doing this.

Just a few thoughts on fighter types:
For fighters, Power Attack, Cleave, and Combat Reflexes are useful. Now Enlarge the fighter. So much better than Bull Strength, and lower level to boot. This is not so good advice in PnP, but here there are fewer feat options and encounters are more old-school with large numbers of opponents. Once you get those three feats on a enlarged fighter, half of your kills will come during enemy moves. Don't actually use the Power Attack feat until you're higher level, and then only if you wield a two-handed weapon (which you should). Don't be fooled by anyone talking about polearms and spiked chains. They're traps. A greatsword with a maul for backup is a great combo, and you'll have plenty of reach when you're enlarged anyway.

Don't multiclass a fighter into barbarian unless you've got stunning Dexterity scores and want to wear the foofy elven armor sets that show up later. Their best abilities can't be used if you're wearing heavy armor. Barbarian is a good first or second level for someone that is going to multi into druid though. You'll get much better weapons, rage and higher speed.

For your thief, give them Two-Weapon Fighting and a high Strength. Fuck Weapon Finesse. Just put your best score in strength and second best in Dexterity.Use mage armor and barkskin to get this character's AC up. If they're human, Power Attack and Cleave aren't a bad option here either. Position this character opposite of another character always to gain a +2 flanking bonus to hit and sneak attack bonus damage.

That's good advice for anyone fighting at low levels really, the +2 bonus to hit from flanking can be decisive. Obviously the reverse is true too - don't get flanked.

For everyone, drop a few points into tumble. Unless their Dex is hopeless, they'll be able to move around more without being trounced.

Some random game engine advice:
If you have multiple attacks, like from two-weapon fighting, rapid shot or high levels, your characters will waste their second shot on dead opponents unless you pick "Full Attack" from the radial menu (or a hotkey). With the latter you can actually split up the attacks among multiple targets.

Sometimes it's good to let them come to you, especially if you have the initiative but there's some distance between you and the opponents. Move forward a bit, then "Ready versus Approach" from the radial menu.

Before you commit to move, hold down the alt key and move your cursor around. This will show the reach areas of all opponents, and any possible attacks of opportunity you might take along your path.

I repeat: Don't use quick saves. They corrupt, and I've heard second-hand that they corrupt your other saves.

Don't use Scather, Fragarach, or any of the super-shiny chromed armors. They seriously destroy the stability of the game.

 

[Grunker]

Apparantly you missed my post Skyway - I don't abuse AI.

Also, the save corruption was partly fixed by Co8, no? I spam saves like fuck and I've never crashed because of that.

I love third person akshun RPGs with little to no character customization and hate turn-based isometric dungeon-crawling with good customization.

 

[SCO]

I'm cheating a dual-wielding bard with monk abilities.

Flurry is nice with a Jian. Would be nicer if it could be finessed... which it can if you edit the right file.

There will be no shame.

Still, this solo cheating char can't hit Iuz fast enough to kill him in 4 rounds. Looks like the only actual way to do with a solo is using the ultra cheap swords with unlimited AoO and managing to trip him... which i think was "fixed" (ie: made impossible).

 

[Shannow]

snip

Are you purposefully trolling, or do you really believe all that?

Anyway, skyway, why don't you make an LP? I'm sure we'd all like to watch you failing playing.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

The simple truth of it is that if you ended up fighting Lareth at level 2, then you skipped a bunch of initial content - either the Hommlet quests (herp) or Welkwood Bog. You should be level 2 when entering the Moathouse, level 3 when fighting Lareth, and killing him should get you to level 4. You can probably abuse the Co8 content to get higher, but I find the fight quite balanced at level 3. In particular, it gives your Mage lvl 2 spells, so you can start the fight by Webbing half the room and running back into the corridor.

Overall, at your level, area-control spells like Grease or Web are amazing, cause enemies have shit for saving throws, and will often sit in a Web for the full duration (which is forever, holy shit).

 

[Kalin]

I finally gave in some months ago and played the game from start to finish. I did not install any of the Circle of Eight mods, but rather tried my luck with the normal patched version. It crashed a few times, but it was still very much playable.

During my playthrough I found that it paid off to keep the party relatively small. I created an evil cleric and two fighters and the combination worked really well, only when they were level 8 or 9 did I finally get a thief for advanced lockpicking and a mage for crafting/spell-slinging. Thanks to my evil cleric's turn dead ability I was able to acquire a large number of permanent allies, very useful fodder, particularly as they could accompany my party from one location to another. The charm and confusion spells were also extremely powerful and worked well against most non-undead enemies.

As for polearms, I found them to be quite excellent. I gave one of my fighters a glaive at the beginning, and the extra range allowed him to hit enemies before they could approach the party. At higher levels, he could chop large groups of hostile creatures to pieces in a single turn, employing near JRPG-esque cleave and great cleave combos. The glaive did not measure up to some other weapons during the end-game phase, but it could at least be enchanted. All in all, it served me well for most of the game.

 

[pipka]

Nothing can beat strong fighter with spiked chain and improved tripping. Maybe only strong fighter with cleaver and great cleave.

 

[MetalCraze]

I've watched an LP on Youtube. First thing dude did is went into a wilderness and did MMO-like grinding of random encounters until he reached lvl2

Lvl3 indeed makes fighting enemies a LOT easier.

I now regret not picking a druid. In that LP druid makes a lot of difference.

 

[Roguey]

The highest Co8 patch I've used is 3.0.4 (so no ambush) and I didn't have too much problem with those guards outside Lareth's room. Crowd control spells like web and sleep work fine. If I remember correctly you can coup de grace sleeping opponents.

 

[SCO]

The way i did the ambush when playing seriously was using the web+fire+entangle combo and placing the fighters in the front line border to prevent them getting out even if they made both saves.
If you equip Lareth's ring, you can even have a sacrificial lamb bait if he is not surrounded.

Web them, entangle them, burn the web by delaying the appropriate caster in the action list until after the enemies "moved" (i believe entangle did not burn).
2-3 combos of fire+web kills most anything not fire resistant.

Or you can try to exit by the secret passage if you really don't want to meet them so near. Be aware that they only trigger on the moathouse front after all bandits are dead though, so exiting that way won't allow you to ambush them from behind if you didn't do that already.

The new Verbonbonc (sp) still looks very much "mod added" in terrain. Much copy&pasting and sometimes with image quality degradation.

 

[RK47]

Rest often, and carry ranged weapons for every character. Even a cleric with summoned spirit weapon can wreck havoc. Recruit Elmo for powerhouse front liner. The guy's reliable since he's level 4 fighter.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Druids can pick an animal companion, especially a jackal kicks serious ass at low levels. Magic Missile is crap at such a low level and for the time being you should focus on Sleep, Entangle, Grease and Web. Another good cleric spell available at low levels is Soundburst. Pro Evil helps with AC. Very good cleric spell (level 2 spell, so it's available for level 3 clerics) is Spiritual Weapon. You will encounter a couple of challenging fights but after making level 5 the difficulty will drop.

 

[made]

Best feature of the Co8 mod is that it lets you change your party size to your liking. Go with 6 PCs, don't recruit any NPCs. Gives you more options during character creation and the early levels are easier. Ofc you gain less XP so you'll be lower level at the end of the game.

PS: game is prone to save game corruption even with the Co8 mod. Having lost a few days worth of progress once, I did a fresh run not using quick saves and not saving during combat and managed to finish the game np. Might be coincidence but better watch out.

 

[deuxhero]

Never had problems with difficulty in ToEE, only with boredom. Make a balanced party with at least one arcane caster, one divine caster and one fighter/rogue type, fill the rest of slots with druids/clerics. Assign stats correctly, dumps charisma and int for fighters, charisma for everyone else but your party face (sorcerers work fine for this). Give them correct equipment, including armour. Make sure your positioning is good, fight enemies in corridors, use aoe spells (also in wands and scrolls if you run out of daily spells).

Nothing else really, that fight didnt even seem hard for me.

Fighters dump charisma and WISDOM you dolt. Combat expertise (requires 13 int) is needed for improved trip, which is one of the best things a fighter type can do.

Yes according to you the game is for special people who train their leet skills of bashing F12/F9

I know that GRPGD is being run by imbeciles now who judge the quality of the game by deaths-per-minute but I wouldn't mind some constructive posts from people that do not think that Dark Souls is challenging because you die every 5 meters and enjoy good design instead.

Please Codex. Be normal for once at least this year.

Quick saves corrupt with insane frequency, don't use them.

Don't multiclass a fighter into barbarian unless you've got stunning Dexterity scores and want to wear the foofy elven armor sets that show up later. Their best abilities can't be used if you're wearing heavy armor. Barbarian is a good first or second level for someone that is going to multi into druid though. You'll get much better weapons, rage and higher speed.

False. All barbarian abilities work in heavy armor (fast movement is held back by the reduced speed for heavy armor, but it still works). Best melee build is

Human. Wield a Guriisame. Be good if you want a good spiked chain in the temple, chaotic good if you want to wield one of the awesauce bastard swords when you get it.
Ranger 1 (Favored Enemy: Human or Goblinoid) Feats: Combat expertise and improved trip
Fighter 1 (Bonus feat: Combat reflexs)
Rest of the levels go into Barbarian. Blow all skill points into search (areas with traps and hidden stuff are fairly obvious) and survival (unless you have a druid doing it), with extra points put in tumble. Feats should pull from Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and Exotic weapon proficiency: Spiked Chain (Don't really bother till the middle of the temple)

Make sure they have at least 14 dex for 2 bonus AoO (-1 from Enlarge Person's dex penalty+1 from the cheep and easily bought gloves of dexterity for a total of 3, which deals with most encounters). 13 int for Combat Expertise. If they have Wisdom 11, they can use Wand of Cure Light Wounds (much more efficient than a cleric) due to the Ranger level, but that is just gravy.

Ignore heavy armor, the few points of AC aren't worth the move penalties. Just do Turjon's quest as soon as you can, it will lead you to a suit of elven chain.

Be sure to have a spellcaster with craft wonderous item (Outside of NC, Craft Magic Arms/Armor isn't too hot due to lack of masterwork items to start with, but the rest of the crafting feats suck, extend/quicken are the only useful meta-magics. Augment Summoning is OK, but not great) because a belt of giant's strength is very important. (Extended) Enlarge Person is also good. This means a Wizard or strength domain Cleric (both are good).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Fighters dump charisma and WISDOM you dolt. Combat expertise (requires 13 int) is needed for improved trip, which is one of the best things a fighter type can do.

All these "protips" are very relative. It's D&D, not Street Fighter, there's no perfect optimal Hadouken combo. I never dump Wis on fighters as not to gimp my will saves which are low enough as is. I never used trip or improved trip a single time and yet have beaten the game to hell and back a dozen times.

I'm not really picking up on you specifically btw, but all these "Fool ! My way is better than your way !" exchanges over a game that can be beaten fair and square with almost any party without even much powergaming are making me nervous and you were next in line.

It's not like we're talking Drassen counter attack or anything close.


FFS

 

[deuxhero]

Problem is that will save effects are very rare in ToEE (Outside of NC, I can only recall two instances. One doesn't matter if you aren't using them as your face AND skull carrier, the second, the groaning spirit, isn't very hard when it is fought).

Try tripping, it's crazy good. You have an easier time hitting the foe because it is a touch attack to start, most foes suck at the opposed strength check, especially if you are enlarged, you get the attack you would have made anyways when you beat the check (plus a bonus to hit on it because they are prone) and you (plus any other melee types in your party) get another attack for free when they stand up. That's not even counting the fact that you blow their move action and prevent AoO from them due to being flat on their ass.

It's not like ToEE has a surplus of feats for melee types anyways. At level 6, one of which is a fighter level, a human has every feat they really want in the game.

 

[Incantatar]

Are there Ironman LPs? The op could learn much from those. I got pretty far with playing a noreload solo wizard. Grinding a bit at the start and using spells effectively can make the game straightforward.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I know that will saves are not used much in ToEE, but that's the rule of thumb I always apply when playing 3.5 D&D. And ToEE being a not overly difficult D&D game, it works just fine, no need to meta/powergame. Sure, I'll try tripping next time, why not ?
Just as I finally tried crafting after my third or fourth playthrough. Some people will say crafting is the shit that you just can do without, some ignore it, both finish the game without too much difficulty. In my multiple experiences, in the vanilla game, only the balor fight requires some real metagaming (and made crafting a real plus). And it's not even a mandatory fight.
Honestly if there were more fights like the balor one, then all these "show me your build, I'll show you mine" antics would indeed become important.

Then again, D&D being an almost 100% male entertainment, it always carried this "dick contest" tradition. I guess I'm getting old and grumpy.

 

[Phelot]

In the newer Co8 versions, it doesn't work anymore. You'll get ambushed no matter what exit you take.

How do they handle if you exit via the front of the moathouse? Are they literally by the exit/entrance instead?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

How do they handle if you exit via the front of the moathouse? Are they literally by the exit/entrance instead?

If memory doesn't fail me, yes, they wait in the inner courtyard, where the bandits were. I never tried the secret exit on the moathouse's side though.

 

[Phelot]

I'm getting confused then, that ambush was added by Co8, right? I don't recall it when I originally played. Also, I wonder why they don't restrict it to NC only. Maybe the devs originally intended for it?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I think it's a Co8 addition but was indeed intended and then canceled by the devs. What we'd need is Sitra Achara's expertise. It's the only way to be sure.

I left a message on his "wall". Fucking Facebook faggy features.

 

[MetalCraze]

As I've said with LVL3 party the fight is much more manageable (but you still need to lure AI in :< ) due to AoE spells but reaching lvl3 without some grinding with 5 chars seems to be really hard if not impossible unless you build a party for hommlet XP (not all quests could've been done since rogue is the main talker in the current party but 12 CHA and all that, didn't want to nerf other, more important stats and only sorc can have high diplomacy at the start but diplomacy alone is not enough). Spell penetration Feat at lvl3 also helps.

Grease is p. awesome here if you carefully drop it onto enemies that are up your face - but doesn't seem to last long