Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

"Game Development is more complex than you understand" is an industry deflection on poor management

Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
Having recently returned to the game industry just as people decided a virus with a 98% survival rate amongst it's core demographic was worthy enough to derail everybody's livelihood, I've been seeing this deflection more and more when games either come out shit or some disaster has struck. Recently I tried watching this video, which basically encapsulates this stupid deflection. The rage of someone too old for this fucking bullshit has been unleashed. The answer is much more simple than you realise. And this is coming from someone with experience both in and out of the industry with managing projects



There's a wilful ignorance here that is all too common within an already rotten industry. Don't let any of the wokeskalds steer you wrong with their disingenuous bullshit. Let creepy old man Trans-Financial Man set you straight.

Okay so in games, you HAVE to manage everyone effectively. Historically even before wokeness game devs were awful at this. Put a bunch of low T arrested development manchildren in a room and tell them to manage several million dollars worth of assets and see what happens. Another excuse they like to give is that "no plan survives contact with the enemy." Absolutely true. But you've been tasked with delivering a product to a standard. Not deliver excuses. And the industry delivers excuses far more than products.

No one seems willing to be the big bad bastard anymore.

"No, I know you're attached to that feature but it won't be done by the deadline. We're cutting it."
"No you can't spend money on R&D six months before we're supposed to go gold. Get the game done."
"I don't give a fuck about Allah or your gash wound. I am not firing my top programmer with high productivity for an untrained intern from a "gaming college", what the fuck is that by the way?"

You're not going to get called up by the HR in your own company. Especially if you have a proven record of money making. The high profile firings you hear about in the corporate world are over far more than "Sexual Harrasement". You stand and stop capitulating to bullshit you soy fueled cretin.

Things happen, plans change. But you deliver your product as best you can. Even if you can't plan around every disaster you've organised your team in such a way that they remain professional and react to any disaster as best as possible. And you have the experience to at least anticipate the majority of expected difficulties. But delays are a symptom of poor management. They may well happen. But SHOULD only happen in the most dire of mitigating circumstances. Like a global pretend pandemic that governments are overreacting to, or your entire staff walking out due to your shitty management. Game cancellations happen because the team and the product they are making cannot be salvaged. STOP MAKING EXCUSES. Stop blaming the mean old publisher, YOU got into bed with them. They just want a product that makes money.

Wokeness is a symptom of the larger problem. Of course it's causing issues but on it's own it's not inherently forcing soy guzzling CEOs from firing their men for diversity quotas. Whilst other IT jobs have not been spared the woke lash, Game dev has always been considered a joke job. The thing you do when you still have some passion but not actual talent or skill. Most other fields in IT are still result driven. And the ones that aren't are quickly being stomped on by the pandemic. We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.

TL/DR: The biggest problem in the industry is no one has a spine and everyone makes excuses instead of addressing real problems.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,496
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,308
8x8j2tK.jpg
 

Ghulgothas

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2020
Messages
1,598
Location
So Below
Flowery Ideas and Vague Notions mean nothing. Indeed, ideas are so cheap that you can make up about ten of them in an hour if you want to, what truly matters is the end result you're able to forge into existence. A lot of creatives have yet to come to grips with this reality, and I feel the art of minimum viable product is becoming lost as the role of project lead/necessary taskmaster becomes ever more vilified.
 

dbx

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
3,895
To be honest what OP describes is common in any corporation. Especially software corpo.
The goal of anyone above coder level is to advance in their career path: get all the praise for the good jobs and deflect blamings for all the retarded shit done (and backstab anyone in sight).
While most coders are patetic limp-wristed nerds that just care about doing the bare minimum necessary to keep their job (so that they can waste their money on onlyfans and retarded weabo stuff) and deflect all decision making to the people above to avoid any kind of confrontation.
 
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
2,608
Location
Airstrip One
This should be obvious.


But it isn't just the management's fault: when your employees consist of beautiful snowflakes and soyboys, there's not much a manager can do. You can clamp down their access to Twitter and lattes, but when you say a single harsh thing to them, they go off and cry crocodile tears to HR/equivalent instead of actually cracking on with the job. Then when they office politik enough to get into a management role themselves, everything is well and truly fucked.


A Big Bad Boss Taskmaster doesn't work in todays era where your workforce crumbles under a light breeze.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,308
"Paradox is very selective with pitches"

Still most of the games they publish are bad and/or a bug ridden mess. Empire of Sin was just the last failure.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
This should be obvious.


But it isn't just the management's fault: when your employees consist of beautiful snowflakes and soyboys, there's not much a manager can do. You can clamp down their access to Twitter and lattes, but when you say a single harsh thing to them, they go off and cry crocodile tears to HR/equivalent instead of actually cracking on with the job. Then when they office politik enough to get into a management role themselves, everything is well and truly fucked.


A Big Bad Boss Taskmaster doesn't work in todays era where your workforce crumbles under a light breeze.

I don't think you understand just how competative the industry is for employment. Even in shitholes like California an employer has his pic of devs to choose from. And high turnover means the experienced people are also easy to find. A rigorous interview process for purity testing isn't that uncommon. So you just have the same thing to detect how woke someone is. And then set their CV on fire. Crying to HR doesn't work when you're the boss and you mandated certain things. Hell, with how desperate people are for work it's simple to have weaselly contracts full of easily manipulatable vagueries like "all HR complaints must be reasonable and succinct." It's how scummy companies abuse their employees all the time. HR has far less power than people think. But it's an Emperor's New Clothes situation. Companies LET wokeness override everything. Even if you're a publicly traded company with share holders those share holders want money and from experience all you ever have to do is MAKE SOME FUCKIN MONEY and they shut up.

People need to get their heads out of their asses when it comes to wokeness. It WILL NOT AFFECT YOU unless you let it. As I said, take responsibility. Be firm. Stop capitulating and produce results.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,496
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In

That's the thing. I mean, the OP talks about how "mission critical" software is made at a higher standard than game dev software. But what happens when the developers making the crop rotation software or the flight controller software are all like this too? And when the governmental departments or the high level corporations or whatever who are requesting their products are organized like this too?

Eventually, everything becomes a cargo cult, and things will fall apart, at first gradually, then at some point catastrophically (I'm thinking here particularly of Lysenkoism and crop disasters in the Soviet Union, and also a bit about Idiocracy).
 

Twiglard

Poland Stronk
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
7,238
Location
Poland
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Minimum viable product is shit since every legendary cult classic arose from passion, bloated scope and unfettered ambition. Game developers these days are a glorified cog in an asset pipeline. Fuck engines and generic third-person action-adventure cookie-cutter games.

Falcon 4.0 - Microprose added a whole fucking dynamic campaign for no business reason; DCS still inferior
STALKER - watered-down version of original planned AI still beats modern games hands down
AoD - more non-linear storytelling than any other RPG; a metagaming nightmare, made by, what, five people, and still a classic
Underrail - showing newfags how it's done. who needs benefits, dental care and an HR department when all it takes is a polymath and a kebab removalist?

All this talk about return on investment and office politics is pure bullshit as it leads to shitty, forgettable games anyway.
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,961
"It is complicated" is the typical deflection of failures.
Yes,everything is complicated,yet successful people managed to make it work.

Modern corpos are a lot like communism when it comes to structure.Poor management is the norm for both.
-The top(party/stockholders) demands constant growth which leads to self destruction.
-The middle is just trying to nab as much as they can before the ship sinks
-The ones guiding the lowest are chopped up into million designer/committees which leads to having no unity for the product/plan
-The lowest doesn't give a fuck/unproductive because they have government/woke security in case of unemployment
-Whatever is worth something in the field is immediately nabbed by state selected/monopoly corpos

This can all be circumvented by a non publicly owned corporation with a reasonably sized team(max 20) and a single person guiding his vision of what the game is supposed to be.
The moment you have a level and game designer in separate roles is the moment you have two games being developed side by side.

Edit: Wokeness is just a symptom of a bigger problem.
 
Unwanted

Savecummer

Latest Doxxer Account
Edgy
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Messages
330
We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD



XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

DDDDDDDD
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
The problem is simple, there is a massive bubble on the financial markets around the globe while non financial, real world companies profits are mediocre to bad, meaning, there is no real growth going around. The european and US goverments are trying to fix the problem and avoiding a deflationary depression caused by the bad real world economy, adding a ton of money to the market to "estimulate" the companies, worse, the goverments take interest rate to near zero or negative in real interest terms, that means, a lot of money that would go to bonds or fixed income is diverted to the stock market instead, creating a stock market boom.

Financial companies, all of sudden, because of the low interest rates and liquidity injections, have massive amount of money that they shouldnt. Those guys know how to manage money but they dont have any clue how to make games. Those investment banks, pension funds and other companies would be buying US goverment bonds if those bonds werent so terribly shitty as they are right now, instead they are investing on video games.

Also, many real world companies have real problems to grow, a mining company, an agriculture company and traditional business have a hard time to grow when the real economy is actually suffering. A software company, however, is a very nebulous thing with abstract standards for sucess, actually right now, it is expected for software companies to spend years having losses. If you look to the S& P 500, the bulk of the valuation is carried by growth based software companies and not real world companies, this is dot com bubble on steroids.

This gives rise to pump and dump investing, the same thing that happened on 2001, what matters isnt the performance of the company over the long run, how consistent it is, how realistic and well made plans are but only one thing matters: growth. Its been this way at least since the dot com bust, 20 years of massive amounts of money that shouldnt be there going to the stock market. The only thing that matters is if the stock price is higher than it was when you bought the company.

So, the top guys come from financial markets and Wall Street, they arent CEOs that wanted to create a game company from the scratch and know video games. They being financial market guys, their demands are for growth at any cost in any way. So, the bureaucracy that actually controls those companies are happy to oblige but those financial guys have no clue how to make those games, then this bureaucracy exploiting this, acquire a life of its own, basically, the head (stock holders) are completely detached from the body (the corporate bureaucracy).

The bureaucracy, because only has some nebulous demands of growth coming from the top, dont have a long term plan for the company because those Wall Street guys at the top change all the time and because the CEO probably wont be there for long and is more worried about his career, shortsightness and corporate politics start spreading top to bottom because the idea of the company being an entity to survive the time and have a legacy disappear from the minds of those involved.

Worse, this is happening for 20 years, so it doesnt only affect large companies, executives hired from EA, Ubisoft, Activision, they all carry those bad habits to the companies that hire them. Also, smaller companies like CDPR see how the game is being played and wish to enter on the party, they dont have stabilished ips to milk like EA and Activision but they see how milking microtransactions is a really good growth strategy, so they start doing what other companies like We Work and Tesla do, pitching ideas that are too good to be true but that look like excellent growth opportunities and attract investment making their owners billionaires in short term.

Without huge amounts of money on the financial market, the nowdays gaming industry wouldnt be possible to sustain. Things will only change when the time comes for the debt cycle to turn and goverment printing money capacity is over stressed generating high real world prices inflation with interest rates raising sharply. Then the party will be over, most of those companies will die when all those 500 million dollars to finance GTA arent there anymore.
 
Last edited:

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,878
It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.
Warren-Spector.jpg


6oYkIXi.png


Top image: Warren Spector holding Ultima Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams, 1991

Bottom image: TSR profile of Warren Spector appearing in Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987
 

grimace

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
1,985
https://youtu.be/xXvdNRoqNLo?t=673

Hardsuit didn't have experience managing a narrative (storyfags) team and recorded the dialogue (voice actressing) too early in development.

How many times will a game endure the un-necessary additions of "VOICE TALENT" and suffer for it???
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom