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KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - Spiderweb Software's latest remake

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd, Dec 19, 2019.

  1. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    I'd say yes. Combat is trivially easy on Normal and many enemies have simpler patterns, while on Veteran they fully employ abilities an' shit. It goes from playing on autopilot to have to plan some fights honestly, even if "planning" means prebattle buffing and proper use of debuffs and positioning.

    Torment is too much for me honestly.

    That said, breaking through the Front Gate with a completely meme composition of several waves of suicide Pyro-roamers because I could was fun.
     
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  2. Rafidur Educated

    Rafidur
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    Veteran seems like the intended experience, I really had to abuse the game to win on torment.
     
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  3. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    For me it's more difficult than avernum / avadon so i am sticking to normal.
    Especially i don't like going back to town for healing hitpoints and essence while mana regenerates instantly after combat, i guess that the Agent class becomes overpowered later on, am i right?


    I don't understand why he added a 3km long hotbar but i can't activate items in the inventory screen.
     
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  4. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    Please understand

    Engine hard

    That said, I'm open to suggestions about the last step of the cockatrice quest. I'm not a particularly optimization-prone player, but for fuck's sake what the fucking fuck 16 birbs with double turns and 90-100 cone damage output and random debuffs

    Do I need to go heavy into Ur-Glaaks or something, even Dominate spam (that solved nicely West Gate) does nothing because endless birbs
     
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  5. Hobo Elf Arcane

    Hobo Elf
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    Yep, but much later. I've finished Mutagen twice; once as a shaper, then as a solo agent. Magic is extremely potent, but I don't particilarly reccomend you go the solo route like I did since it makes combat too rng reliant (miss once? You died!).
     
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  6. Elwro Arcane

    Elwro
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    Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
    A patch has appeared, in case you missed it https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/6332319/ :

    I like the changes in Leadership checks.
     
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  7. Rafidur Educated

    Rafidur
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    Couldn't do it without lowering it to Veteran. Hardest fight in the game probably.

    I had my shaper go alone at the front and use essence shield, defensive items, and tank/heal, with a bunch of drayks in the background picking them off one by one. You need the mass heal/cure spell.

    seriously that's some bullshit (open)
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    Yeh, not worth it for a frankly subpar creation compared to the usual optimal Fire/Magic creation play. At least it's a good fight I presume for punishment gluttons.

    So, finished it. Mechanically it's a good remake, the old system was sometimes clunky as hell. Thematically one could argue that now creations are utterly disposable and meant to be replaced as often as you like to encounter new opponents, but eeeeh, it's more fun this way. Despite the changes in mechanics an' shit, the basics of the combat (for a pure Shaper at least) are essentially unchanged, Fire/Magic creations rule with buffing and mental magic being essential. That's how it was and it still is.

    Additions and writing under spoilers, in the unlikely case someone cares.

    Show Spoiler


    The base game is identical, with the usual three-way power struggle between Traikov, you and Goettsch. Don't ask me to type the names right. I don't exactly remember if the collaboration you get with the non-Traikov Sholai was as indepth as it is here or if the Servile Origin quest was there (it has been more than a decade since my last GF1 playthrough) but they felt somewhat.... different.

    That said, the only real additions are the various Inutile serviles, the Ascended and the Eastern Dock Shapers. Narratively they're both.... meh. The Inutiles mechanically are useful because they provide lategame trainers in Stealth and Mechanics. Narratively? Pardon me, I could not resist rolling my eyes after a while at the concept of autistic serviles. I get it, I get it. Still eye-rolling and essentially ignored by the entirety of the setting bar a book. No one talks about the Inutiles, and they're essentially inutile to both the main plot and the Sects.

    The Ascended are another plot device to give you a good boss fight.

    The Eastern Dock Shapers I found clumsy. They're essentially a rehash of the Shaper camp in Geneforge 2, but they're a bunch of arseholes, so much that when they asked me to destroy the Obeyers I went full larp and exterminated 'em because the leader was a shady asshat and the Agent a straight asshat. Fun detail, the ending presumes that the fuckers survive and start Geneforge 2, but Vogel was smart enough to rewrite it as "generic Shapers find a remnant of the goo even if you killed everyone involved and stayed loyal to the Council". Point is, they're not needed, cheapen the triangle between you and the other two powerhouses, and that's it.

    Glad to have killed the bastards. I guess I'll have to kill them again in GF2.

    Again, they're very.... external to the main conflict. You can tell no-one they're there and no one reacts when they die. Easy additions, I guess.



    To sum it up, it's a by-the-number remake with some extras, the extra a bit clumsy narratively but it's a fine way to experience Geneforge. One could argue that for the minimal amount of work done - scripts are 90% identical, graphics are often more than a decade old, etc. - it's a bit too much full price, but GF1 was already a solid game. Can't wait to have to wait 2,5 years for GF2 - my favourite in the series! -. Thanks Queen's Wish 2, I'm sure you will be worth delaying the remake.
     
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  9. Rafidur Educated

    Rafidur
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    Their AOE cone is really good when massed. Good damage and with enough of them the disables are more or less consistent. Their passives might be good on lower difficulties though worthless on torment as they melt instantly in melee range.
     
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  10. Raghar Arcane

    Raghar
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    Blind ironman would be PITA on higher difficulty than on normal. You'd need to abuse certain tactics, or repeatedly run back to town like a champ. Considering it reduces XP gain when enemy is too weak...
     
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  11. hell bovine Arcane

    hell bovine
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    One question: are those annoying areas with damage-over-time effects still in, and if yes, do you have to brave them in turn based mode?
     
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  12. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    OF COURSE THEY'RE IN

    The original areas are 96% identical, the basic scripts are the same. The changes are mostly half a dozen "separated" floors you get from stairs, three (?) new maps and some slight changes. You can follow a Geneforge 1 guide (as I did when I wanted to check changes, thank you GameFAQ) and you'll notice precious little changes bar items and canisters being occasionally moved around, all Luck tests being automatic (or maybe Mechanics-based?).

    Power Core, Vats and the like are in and they work like old. Enjoy your stay.

    EDIT: Icewalls and Sealed Lab are minor annoyances and I didn't bother to abuse TB mode, thanks Mass Cure. Vats you can skip because there's nothing interesting in the affected areas bar crap-tier items.

    Power Core can fuck itself. I didn't bother, maybe TB is needed there.
     
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  13. hell bovine Arcane

    hell bovine
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    Ah well, the green gui is still in, what did I expect. I managed to get through the power core on tb, but I'm not looking forward to a repeat experience.
     
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  14. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    Worst Spiderweb game i played, i managed to steal the boat from the north east and called it a day.
     
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  15. The Brazilian Slaughter Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
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    Omegalul, because

    Show Spoiler
    In Geneforge 2, that's literally the canon ending
     
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  16. Correct_Carlo Arcane

    Correct_Carlo
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    I'll probably end up playing this mid-summer, given my spring gaming schedule, but I'm curious: is it possible to play a solo, Agent, torment run that isn't 100% stealth/leadership based? In G1 it was possible to do this (relying on some stealth) given that mental magic was incredibly powerful, so you could stun everything and take them out one by one. It was still difficult, but a fun way to play.

    I asked Vogel this question personally in a live playthrough he was doing and he said probably not because the way he redesigned battles would make it too hard. However, Vogel is shit at playing his own games, so I don't trust him.
     
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  17. Hobo Elf Arcane

    Hobo Elf
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    :negative:
     
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  18. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    Creations are more powerful now, and the system actively expects you to use them at times

    I think a Torment solo run is theoretically possible, but it would be RNG supreme - get stunned/dazed, reload, get a critical in, reload- the addition of Areas of Control for melee enemies means you can't retreat as reliably without meatshields, meaning - fucked up charge- reload. Mental magic is still supreme, but slight changes in the systems have upped the lethality for solo characters quite a bit. Enemy melee creation jumps - with a daze and AoC effect - reload.

    Plus Torment is really insane.
     
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  19. Ladonna Arcane

    Ladonna
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    Is there any reason to play this over the original?
     
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  20. VaxxedDeadman Arcane Patron

    VaxxedDeadman
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    It's the same except better in almost every regard.
     
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  21. Dayyālu Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Dayyālu
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    Your question is more difficult than you believe.

    There is a reason to play this instead of playing GF1 with the graphics mod?

    The additions are minor. The mechanical balances make for a slightly better game, but gameplay wasn't top-tier in any Geneforge. The plot additions are mostly mediocre and tacked-on quite blatantly. Old Geneforge ran shittily without fixes in Win10, but it's minor.

    If you aren't INCREDIBLY curious about what's different I'd honestly wait for the inevitable 90% sale in six months. Again, the hope for the remake was the same game, just with better UI, graphics and some good extras: we got a game with a slightly better UI, graphics roughly on par with Geneforge 5/Avadon and mediocre extras. I don't doubt that when this will be under 5 bucks it will be the clear winner, but for now they're essentially identical in what matters. I don't regret buying it tho, GF is good.
     
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  22. Saduj Arcane

    Saduj
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    Getting towards the end now and overall, the game deserves high marks. But now I'm at a point where most of the remaining areas have some variation of the annoying (to me at least) "environment will kill you" gimmick. The most common variation, "teh floor is lava! lol", is in there. But we also have damaging cold, standard poisonous air, magically poisonous air, etc. I get that it is meant to add another level of challenge to the game but it ends up just being annoying and a huge incentive to resort to cheesy tactics such as turn based mode abuse and constantly running back to safe areas (same thing can be said about some mined areas where you can set off mines, retreat and repeat). Also, it doesn't make much sense to me that my living flame throwers take so much fire damage and creations that breathe damaging cold aren't immune to cold.

    IMO, areas like this should have some way to mitigate the environment at the cost of something else. If I'm in an area that is extremely cold, I should be able to bring cold based creatures that don't take damage from the environment but the tradeoff is that everything else that lives there is also adapted to the environment and won't take cold damage - meaning that my creations now have to fight in melee. Or at least my character should be able to put on some layers at the cost of agility. The way it is now, I just end up going around and casting mass restore until essence starts running low. Then I go back to a safe area and recharge before returning to the annoying area to do more exploring. Repeat as necessary. Not so much challenging as boring and time wasting. I get that some of these areas can be fixed with high mechanics but they seem to be areas that EVERY character needs to deal with to some extent and most people don't want to heavily invest in mechanics. And there are items you can equip to increase certain resistances (which worked well in the "normal poison" area). But the inventory system strongly discourages the player from carrying around subpar items that may come in handy in only very specific circumstances. The one time I had appropriate items was just luck because I hadn't replaced them with better stuff yet. Maybe the move is to put a stash of +resistance items somewhere but again - not so much challenging as a time waster that requires meta knowledge.

    Could be that my personal hatred of this type of gimmick in general is making me be a bigger baby about it than I should be. But it is really starting to make me want to beeline my ass to a boat and end the game whether I get to see the Geneforge or finish any of the faction stuff or not. Disappointing to see a very good game tarnished by questionable late game level design choices. *Cough* Deep Caverns *Cough*
     
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  23. Rafidur Educated

    Rafidur
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    I kept a stockpile of +res items and cheapo healing pods in the starting area and went solo in these 'fuck you zones', only casting creations before combat.
     
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  24. Moaning_Clock SmokeSomeFrogs Developer

    Moaning_Clock
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    I backed that game on Kickstarter but so many games so little time - for anyone who played Avadon and the new Geneforge game - which one would you recommend more? And which is longer or are they more or less equally long?
     
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  25. V_K Arcane

    V_K
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    It's like comparing Sword Coast Legends to a BG2 remake. Geneforge is one of the best RPGs ever (and the remake actually improves on some of its weaker aspects), while Avadon is pure shit.
     
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