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KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - Spiderweb Software's latest remake

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt
What exactly makes Avadon so bad?

I will be more lenient than others: Avadon is simply stunningly mediocre. Combat design was never the strongest suit of Vogel, but Avadon marries some exceedingly boring combat encounters with a completely uninteresting plotline. Geneforge isn't a triumph of writing in any sense, but the ambience and the moral quandaries are somewhat interesting: Avadon is incredibly bland, it does not help that Blackbeard Redbeard feels like a Vogel-self insert as Moaning Clock pointed out.

It's still more bearable than "triskele map with RPGMaker mechanics" Queen's Wish, tbh.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
While Avadon's returning villain was annoying, I liked the corruption concept in the second game. Especially if you drunk from that water.

But if you have time only for one game, Geneforge wins, there is no contest.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
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Aug 24, 2013
Messages
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I started playing Geneforge Mutagen. It's been ages since I played the original Geneforge, which is a stand-alone title compared to the rest of the series, so it feels like I'm exploring everything again for the first time. Some of the new improvements are nice; I want to limit my canister usage so it is nice that the game tells you what a canister does before you inject it. The shaping system is much improved, I like being able to select special abilities and upgrades for the creatures beyond +1 to a given stat.

Regarding the on-going discussion: Queen's Wish is dogshit, Avadon is pure mediocrity. I agree the corruption plotline was interesting in Avadon, but the trash mobs and shit-tier gameplay mean that I never bothered completing the Avadon games (other than the original).

Avernum: Escape from the Pit and Geneforge: Mutagen are both great games, you could pick either one and be happy. I personally prefer Geneforge, and I think the sequels to Geneforge are better than those of Avernum. In the Geneforge sequels picking a faction remained a big deal, whereas in Avernum: Crystal Souls and Ruined World you're essentially railroaded (especially Crystal Souls, if memory serves).
 

Rafidur

Learned
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
411
IIRC Crystal Souls opens up a lot once you get back from that one spoilery land.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
IIRC Crystal Souls opens up a lot once you get back from that one spoilery land.

Maybe I didn't play it enough, it's been more than 5 years since I last loaded it up. I wanted to side with the Empire and make various decisions based on this, but apparently it wasn't an option. Unlike the original Avernum, where you can assist the lady under the city or otherwise be neutral and escape.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Developer
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Shapers are the good guys. Imagine granting freedom to a herd of drooling serviles, allowing them to blindly dabble in magic and genetics. Absolute STATE of Awakened politics. Don't even get me started on "takers".

:killit:
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
User "hobo for eternity" empathises with derelict, rogue creations. Colour me surprised. What next, the player should assist rogue thahds to form society of wandering, 0 intelligence, violent retards?

EdeYhAWU8AAJHzp
 
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Rafidur

Learned
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
411
Shapers are the good guys. Imagine granting freedom to a herd of drooling serviles, allowing them to blindly dabble in magic and genetics. Absolute STATE of Awakened politics. Don't even get me started on "takers".

:killit:

In G5, siding with the "final solution" dude that keeps creatures in concentration camps is somehow the best ending long-term, though your character, shaper-hitler, and every creation do get completely fucked over.
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt
Shapers are the good guys. Imagine granting freedom to a herd of drooling serviles, allowing them to blindly dabble in magic and genetics. Absolute STATE of Awakened politics. Don't even get me started on "takers".

Serviles aren't exactly human, considering they're a blend of monkey, wolf and octopus. They're nonetheless sentient and skilled enough to build effective societies that can thrive under considerable pressure.

Point is, contrary to a lot of settings where the "talking point" is that no one is the good guy but the end result is that everyone is an asshole instead, Geneforge has an interesting moral quandary:

Shapers are indeed slavers. They're however justified in being literal creators and in their paternalistic approach: they're nonetheless slavers that often think nothing of erasing a sentient for utility reasons. Most of them are good and care about creation as their children. It adds to the problem that their system while stable for the moment is shown to be unsustainable long-term: all you need is a bunch of power-hungry Shapers to cause a disaster. Enter canisters and the Geneforge.

Rebels are delusional and they create their own monsters in the Drakons, that are Shapers without morality.

Everything very gray and very questionable. Geneforge is fun, one of the few games where I like to larp as often the rewards and optimization are dogshit (well, using dialogue skills to cheat and doublecross people is larping too).

In G5, siding with the "final solution" dude that keeps creatures in concentration camps is somehow the best ending long-term, though your character, shaper-hitler, and every creation do get completely fucked over.

And siding with Traijkov in GF1 creates a more "equal" society after a devastating war, a society in which you have a premiere role (even if you are ultra-loyal to the Council they'll never trust you completely because canisters). And let's not talk about Goettsch or the new retard introduced in Mutagen.

Even the Drakon ending, if I remember right, is a "good" one as Ghaldring fails his power bid against you and other Rebels.

Taygen pays an incredibly high price for his plan, and I'm not entirely sure it's worth it compared to pretty much every other ending. It's nonetheless morally gray by design despite, well, genocide.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
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Grand Chien
I tried to play an Avadon game a long time ago and found it terribly tedious. I think it was the first one. Anyway I didn't get very far in it.
 

Rafidur

Learned
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
411
I'm not entirely sure it's worth it

The way I see it - with how things were going, a repeat of shredbugs (or worse...) was inevitable in the long term without a very drastic solution. Taygen was needlessly cruel, but in his ending he likely saved civilisation in the long run.

Maybe Trakovites do it too? I didn't do their ending.
 

Spukrian

Savant
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
667
Location
Lost Continent of Mu
I'm a big fan of Spiderware Software's games. I bought this... and I played it for 90 minutes... and after that I haven't touched it. I love the Geneforge games and the Second Avernum trilogy, but I have no desire to continue with this. I started the Avernum 3 Ruined World Remake but I have no desire to finish it. I bought the Queen's Gambit but I haven't played it. Maybe I'm suffering from Spiderweb fatigue?
 

Brozef

Savant
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Messages
231
Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What exactly makes Avadon so bad?
The format of instanced missions and linearity.

I actually think Avadon could have worked as a mobile/tablet game if Vogel had committed to it.
I remember playing it on tablet when I was pretty sick and I felt the instanced nature could have been a plus if the missions were tighter and more interesting. But of course he still filled them with thrash fights and the individual missions got too tedious. So I immediately abandoned it once I could get back to the pc.

Still I think you could make a decent game in that mold. Go on missions return to base for some strategizing and character development rinse and repeat till you uncover the plot/kill your boss.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,874
What id the best tablet now? If apple wasn't a shithole I'd get a ipad pro just for

Silver Sword

Game is teeny tiny on iphone and annoying. With an ipad, a connected keyboard and maybe mouse; I'd be good to go. Damn pity he didn't go android so i could googleplay apk it.
 
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Brozef

Savant
Patron
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Aug 1, 2017
Messages
231
Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Have you tried looking for an emulator?
And regarding the tablet. I had a samsung one which was decent, but I think atm you can get pretty much anything since apparently no one wants tablets anymore.
If you want something fancy you can use a windows surface
 

catgode

Novice
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
13
Had eyes on Geneforge for some time.. is there a reason to get original Geneforge 1 or should I go for Mutagen no question asked?
 

xuerebx

Erudite
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
1,001
I've continued playing Mutagen where I left off last year. Does it make sense to diversifying shaping creation skills (Fire, Battle or Magic) or is focusing on one, and maybe a secondary shaping creation skill better?
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,874
Hmmm maybe some of the Reviews will help.

"As I said in the other article, the Geneforge games are some of my favorite top down, isometric RPGs. The problem with them is that, other than games 4 and 5, they can be hard to play due to out dated graphics and controls. That isn’t out of the ordinary for many of these kinds of games. The original XCom and many others (all great games) are nearly unplayable today. "


Ok. Unplayable lol.



 
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OSK

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Jan 24, 2007
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I've continued playing Mutagen where I left off last year. Does it make sense to diversifying shaping creation skills (Fire, Battle or Magic) or is focusing on one, and maybe a secondary shaping creation skill better?

It's probably only worth going into all three if you're a Shaper and you're OK with being completely reliant on your creations to fight. That's how I played!
 

Terra

Cipher
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Messages
896
I think spreading your shaping skills between the schools actually provides higher overall creature control than if you solely focus on one thing.
 

EldarEldrad

Savant
Joined
Sep 13, 2017
Messages
253
Location
Russia
Well, I just recently tried this remake and played it for a couple of hours. For now this remake looks like total shit. Every aspect Vogel tried to change is now utter garbage. No event log, simplified control when you can't select part of your party to move, zone-of-control mechanics disabling some previously well-established tactics, leap/cone/shriek attacks that make no sense lore-wise, overbloated enemies on Torment difficulty, removed character creation stage, lame additions here and there. Oh, and abilities shortcuts are switching constantly depending on their availability, so previous turn a-c was Blessing, but this time a-c is Healing Potion. These are not shortcuts anymore, more like dumbcuts. Sorry to see how Cult Classic turns to Retarded Crap.
 

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