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Geneforge - Good vs Evil

Deathy

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793
Sustenus Paul said:
No, sorry. Killing servant minds who are continually trying to enslave them is hardly evil. Maybe it's not the most noble of actions, but it's obviously necessary under the circumstances. The Awakened's plan of "let's live our lives free on this island and deal peacefully with our former masters" is more compassionate, rational, and constructive (even if it meant offing a few obsolete and rather unstable creations) than the "we throw out rule of grammar, align with unstable godling and kill Shapers" plan the Takers were adhering too.

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I'm going explain why I thought that the Awakened killing this servant mind was evil. The first, most obvious reason is that the servant mind was mutilated. It may have been a defensive action if they were just to have killed it, but to mutilate it, possibly while it was still alive, while it could do nothing to defend itself was an undeniably evil action. Next, I don't think they had to kill it. The impression I got from the servant mind was that it was probably idle at the time they attacked it, and even if it wasn't, it wasn't one of the Control servant minds. Then there was the weak excuse that the Awakened leader gave when you confronted him. For me, it just didn't wash. They preach living in peace with the Shapers, yet they think it is right to kill and mutilate servant minds that may have been no threat to them? It smells of mental instability, and a lack of ability to discern right from wrong.
The more "compassionate, rational and constructive" ideals of the Awakened are nothing more than a sham. I believe that they were as rogue as the Takers, but just reasonable enough to know they were screwed if they tried to overtly attack the Shapers.
 

Sustenus Paul

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Deathy said:
At the risk of going off on a tangent, I'm going explain why I thought that the Awakened killing this servant mind was evil. The first, most obvious reason is that the servant mind was mutilated. It may have been a defensive action if they were just to have killed it, but to mutilate it, possibly while it was still alive, while it could do nothing to defend itself was an undeniably evil action. Next, I don't think they had to kill it. The impression I got from the servant mind was that it was probably idle at the time they attacked it, and even if it wasn't, it wasn't one of the Control servant minds. Then there was the weak excuse that the Awakened leader gave when you confronted him. For me, it just didn't wash. They preach living in peace with the Shapers, yet they think it is right to kill and mutilate servant minds that may have been no threat to them? It smells of mental instability, and a lack of ability to discern right from wrong.
The more "compassionate, rational and constructive" ideals of the Awakened are nothing more than a sham. I believe that they were as rogue as the Takers, but just reasonable enough to know they were screwed if they tried to overtly attack the Shapers.

I'm trying to remember the exact circumstances, but the general impression I got from the game was that the Servant Minds were for the most part better off dead anyway. They existed soley to serve a function that was no longer relevant, and (unlike the serviles) they were unable to evolve beyond that, leaving them lost, helpless, and thoroughly confused with no hope of moving out of that state.

But, more than anything, the simple fact is they were less dangerous and self-destructive than the Takers, who wanted a war they either couldn't win or would require them to rely on a ticking timebomb of an overpowered godling.
 
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Well, I'll follow up on that tangent, since I had a few problems with the Awakened, too. You didn't get even the slightest hollow feeling inside after forcing the Servant Mind to kill itself, after it repeatedly begged you for its life? Okay, it was obsolete, but telling a sentient creature that looks up to you and follows your orders unquestioningly that it has to kill itself because it's become a slight inconvenience just to get in the good graces of an organization didn't really sit that well with me. Also, the Awakened were trying to use you, albeit a little more subtly than the Takers. They'd go on about how the canisters didn't seem to be that healthy for you but still encouraged you to use the Geneforge so you'd be powerful enough to make the other Shapers listen to them, regardless of the cost to you. They basically were willing to do just about anything to get what they wanted (and if they didn't have to get involved, so much the better). It did seem a little strange that the Takers really wanted to kill them when they really seemed to mostly agree on everything but the way to get their freedom, and the two groups were so far apart it didn't seem like they would naturally come into conflict much. It wouldn't really surprise me if they had a lot of schemes going on to bring down the Takers as well.

Personally I found the Obeyers to be the least evil, strange as it sounds. They had blinders on because of their faith in the Shapers, but in their minds they were always doing the right thing, often at great personal sacrifice. Seeing all the rogue creations running around wild and killing their fellow serviles, it isn't that hard to imagine how you'd see other serviles who had strange thoughts as being rogues who'd turn on them and you at the first opportunity as well. They openly fought the Takers, but it's not hard to imagine the Takers were probably in large part responsible for that because they seemed like a pretty violent people all in all. They mostly wanted to contain the Awakened and bring them back into the fold one day, I didn't see much evidence they had any intentions of wiping them out and don't remember them ever asking you to do so.
 

Deathy

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Sustenus Paul said:
I'm trying to remember the exact circumstances, but the general impression I got from the game was that the Servant Minds were for the most part better off dead anyway. They existed soley to serve a function that was no longer relevant...
Agreed in part. They were obsolete, however, they didn't deserve to be killed just because of that.
They existed soley to serve a function that was no longer relevant, and (unlike the serviles) they were unable to evolve beyond that, leaving them lost, helpless, and thoroughly confused with no hope of moving out of that state.
Were they any better than the serviles? Hell, all of the intelligent rogues in the game, with the exception of drakes were having a lot of trouble coming to terms with their freedom. All of the servile groups were mentally unstable, the Awakened for what I have outlined above, the Obeyers, who took on the idea of obeying only true Shapers (Which they presumed to determine for themselves), and the Takers, for their violent, anarchistic behaviour. They were confused, and were not mentally equipped to deal with freedom.

But, more than anything, the simple fact is they were less dangerous and self-destructive than the Takers, who wanted a war they either couldn't win or would require them to rely on a ticking timebomb of an overpowered godling.
Who's to say that the Awakened really wanted peace with the Shapers? Because of the mutilation of the servant mind, I feel that they did not respect the Shapers, and probably would have engaged in a covert war based on undermining the Shapers powers, making their creatures go rogue.

The fun part of all this is that, with my interpretation of the serviles, I would be doing the right thing, in my own mind, at least, by exterminating them, whereas other interpretations would see it as an evil act.

This is where the lines blur between good and evil.
 

Sustenus Paul

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Deathy said:
Agreed in part. They were obsolete, however, they didn't deserve to be killed just because of that.

Were they any better than the serviles? Hell, all of the intelligent rogues in the game, with the exception of drakes were having a lot of trouble coming to terms with their freedom. All of the servile groups were mentally unstable, the Awakened for what I have outlined above, the Obeyers, who took on the idea of obeying only true Shapers (Which they presumed to determine for themselves), and the Takers, for their violent, anarchistic behaviour. They were confused, and were not mentally equipped to deal with freedom.

Yes, but the serviles, unlike every other creature (except maybe the dragons) managed to evolve, form societies, and actually reach the point where ideological debate was a useful passtime. Maybe they weren't 100% stable (which is somewhat debatable), but if no one had ever landed on the island, they likely would have become something stable over time. Individually and as a group, they had achieved moral culpability, self awareness, and whatever else you might want to ascribe to a group of people to call them "human".

The Servant Minds were replaying old commands and living in self-delusion, because they were utterly incapable of imagining more for themselves. Unless the island were retaken by the Shapers (which was never going to happen) they were incapable of happiness or satisfaction in their current existances. They maybe didn't "deserve" death, but life held nothing for them.

Who's to say that the Awakened really wanted peace with the Shapers? Because of the mutilation of the servant mind, I feel that they did not respect the Shapers, and probably would have engaged in a covert war based on undermining the Shapers powers, making their creatures go rogue.

The fun part of all this is that, with my interpretation of the serviles, I would be doing the right thing, in my own mind, at least, by exterminating them, whereas other interpretations would see it as an evil act.

This is where the lines blur between good and evil.

Though, honestly I remain unconvinced this was intentional. It's possible it was, but given all the indications that the Takers were rendered irrational by their proximity to the Geneforge, I still think the Takers were "supposed" to be the good guys, and you have to assume a fair bit to arrive at a different conclusion.

Though I do agree with Snails that the Obeyers were the "nicest" of the three groups. At worst they were self-destructive, but they obviously had their hearts in the right place. Of course, I only helped them because I liked being sucked up too before I could claim ultimate power for myself.
 

Deathy

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Sustenus Paul said:
Yes, but the serviles, unlike every other creature (except maybe the dragons) managed to evolve, form societies, and actually reach the point where ideological debate was a useful passtime. Maybe they weren't 100% stable (which is somewhat debatable), but if no one had ever landed on the island, they likely would have become something stable over time. Individually and as a group, they had achieved moral culpability, self awareness, and whatever else you might want to ascribe to a group of people to call them "human".

However, and as you said, it is debatable (as is most of the things in this game, which is why I like it so much), that they could actually deal with their freedom (not self-awareness, because they were self aware to some degree while they were under the Shapers ie: they could perform most tasks independently and showed a degree of initative, as shown by the servile in the containment area near the Geneforge.)
The thing about them was that they weren't genetically equiped to deal with freedom, none of the creatures were, excepting the Drakes. This is probably best shown by the tribals on the east side of the map, they, through the hardship that they faced, had degenerated into savages, even more so than the Takers. Another example of this, although not entirely relevant, was the group of battle alphas that had formed a community.
They were less able to function independently than the serviles, and barely were able to survive. The nature of most of the creatures on Sucia Isle showed that they had been designed to not be able to function independently. That the serviles generally did function independently was odd, unless you count the mental instability resulting from this.

The Servant Minds were replaying old commands and living in self-delusion, because they were utterly incapable of imagining more for themselves. Unless the island were retaken by the Shapers (which was never going to happen) they were incapable of happiness or satisfaction in their current existances. They maybe didn't "deserve" death, but life held nothing for them.
I always thought of them as biological, and self aware computers. They were, by their very nature, incapable of evolving. They had no contact with others of their kind, and therefore could not form a society. If they had been able to, they may have formed one, but we can't really say what might have happened without speculating a lot more than what I am now.

Though, honestly I remain unconvinced this was intentional. It's possible it was, but given all the indications that the Takers were rendered irrational by their proximity to the Geneforge, I still think the Takers were "supposed" to be the good guys, and you have to assume a fair bit to arrive at a different conclusion.
Just out of curiousity, is the Taker's being rendered irrational by proximity to the Geneforge speculation on your part? I never found any evidence of this. If it is, it further strengthens the idea that the difference between good and evil was intended to be based on the characters perception. Something that I have not seen any other CRPG do.

Though I do agree with Snails that the Obeyers were the "nicest" of the three groups. At worst they were self-destructive, but they obviously had their hearts in the right place. Of course, I only helped them because I liked being sucked up too before I could claim ultimate power for myself.
The main problem I had with the obeyers was that they would presume to determine whether you were a 'true' Shaper, and would not allow you to join them otherwise.
Also, they attempted to manipulate you more than they did obey you.
 

Sustenus Paul

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Deathy said:
That the serviles generally did function independently was odd, unless you count the mental instability resulting from this.

Not really. Keep in mind that most of the creations you encountered were "specific function" creations, and that function was usually combat-oriented. Therefore things like farming/building/crafting tools wouldn't be hardcoded into them, and the ability to "learn" probably wasn't a high priority in their genetic shaping. The serviles were not only likely preprogrammed to do such things, but were probably designed with greater intelligence and adaptability than any other creation, given the variety of tasks they'd be likely face and the need for independant operation. If they were unstable, their problems were likely more cultural (as they'd never been taught to survive on their own), rather than genetic (being physiologically incapable of surviving on their own).

I think a neat ending would have you take control of the Obeyers as a sort of "Lawgiver" and form them into a lasting, useful society on the island.

I always thought of them as biological, and self aware computers. They were, by their very nature, incapable of evolving. They had no contact with others of their kind, and therefore could not form a society. If they had been able to, they may have formed one, but we can't really say what might have happened without speculating a lot more than what I am now.

Yes, but the difference is that, seperated from the Shapers, the serviles began to question the purpose behind their existance with enough freedom and clarity to arrive at multiple solutions. They were even capable of changing their minds (as evidenced by that one Obeyer merchant who joined the Awakened). Even the Obeyers accepted the reality of their present situation and lived within its rules. The Servant Minds continued at their old roles even after it should have been obvious to them that there was no longer any reason to. They weren't adaptable (like every other non-servile or drake creation).

Just out of curiousity, is the Taker's being rendered irrational by proximity to the Geneforge speculation on your part? I never found any evidence of this. If it is, it further strengthens the idea that the difference between good and evil was intended to be based on the characters perception. Something that I have not seen any other CRPG do.

It was never stated explicitly, and it's been a while since I last played the game, but I remember a lot of times having it mentioned that "something was altering the Takers", or "they changed somehow", and there was plenty of evidence that the further north and east you went on the island, the more effed up things were due to the Geneforge's corrupting influence.

The main problem I had with the obeyers was that they would presume to determine whether you were a 'true' Shaper, and would not allow you to join them otherwise.
Also, they attempted to manipulate you more than they did obey you.

Well, I think the "true Shaper" thing shows surprising enlightenment on their part. They want to serve the will of Shaper society not that of some individual Shaper. Serving someone like (er... whatever the name of that Shaper in the wasteland was) wouldn't have helped them or their ideals. They didn't really manipulate you much, mostly they seemed to just beg for your aid. They didn't do a whole lot of serving because... well, what were they supposed to do? Be ready with your slippers and a glass of brandy after you came back from a hard day of fighting rogue creations? They probably shouldn't have charged you in stores, but this is likely just a "game necessity" brought on by the fact that if you could get stuff free, most players would abuse it excessively and disbalance the game (by taking more than they needed and selling it back to the Awakened, for instance).
 

Deathy

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Sustenus Paul said:
If they were unstable, their problems were likely more cultural (as they'd never been taught to survive on their own), rather than genetic (being physiologically incapable of surviving on their own).
Well, since the Shapers made their creations with the idea that revolt would be near impossible, they blessed most of them with the inability to function without Shaper direction. Even serviles, with their enhanced intelligence were not exempt from this. Their instability may be partly due to cultural influences (or the lack of them), but I think more accurately, it is due to psychological and physiological difficulties with independence. It's like when you release a domesticated animal, such as a dog, into the wild. Suddenly they're forced to fend for themselves, after hundreds of years of selective breeding, and and entire life of them being fed by their masters. It becomes difficult to cope, and they often show erratic behaviour.

Yes, but the difference is that, seperated from the Shapers, the serviles began to question the purpose behind their existance with enough freedom and clarity to arrive at multiple solutions. They were even capable of changing their minds (as evidenced by that one Obeyer merchant who joined the Awakened). Even the Obeyers accepted the reality of their present situation and lived within its rules. The Servant Minds continued at their old roles even after it should have been obvious to them that there was no longer any reason to. They weren't adaptable (like every other non-servile or drake creation).
Just something I found interesting, all of the Shaper groups, even the Takers, would ask for your assistance. It shows a lack of real independence, and I would think, if the Shapers were to come back to Sucia Isle, most serviles would slip back to their old ways. I really don't think that the serviles had adapted all that much. They probably still all had genetic triggers built deep inside of them that made them act a certain way toward Shapers, or real humans.

It was never stated explicitly, and it's been a while since I last played the game, but I remember a lot of times having it mentioned that "something was altering the Takers", or "they changed somehow", and there was plenty of evidence that the further north and east you went on the island, the more effed up things were due to the Geneforge's corrupting influence.
I think that that was something to do with the influence of the Sholai, myself. Also, the conditions of the area that they were in had a large factor in their ideals. They were clearly the the most hard done by group of serviles on the island, and they harboured resentment for the Shaper 'gods' for this.

Well, I think the "true Shaper" thing shows surprising enlightenment on their part. They want to serve the will of Shaper society not that of some individual Shaper. Serving someone like (er... whatever the name of that Shaper in the wasteland was) wouldn't have helped them or their ideals. They didn't really manipulate you much, mostly they seemed to just beg for your aid. They didn't do a whole lot of serving because... well, what were they supposed to do? Be ready with your slippers and a glass of brandy after you came back from a hard day of fighting rogue creations? They probably shouldn't have charged you in stores, but this is likely just a "game necessity" brought on by the fact that if you could get stuff free, most players would abuse it excessively and disbalance the game (by taking more than they needed and selling it back to the Awakened, for instance).
The problem was that they were serviles, subhuman. They had no right, if they were presuming to Obey the Shapers, to decide which ones to Obey.
I thought that they were as rogue as the rest of them, since their leader presumed to order you what to do with the Geneforge.
 

Sustenus Paul

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Deathy said:
Well, since the Shapers made their creations with the idea that revolt would be near impossible, they blessed most of them with the inability to function without Shaper direction. Even serviles, with their enhanced intelligence were not exempt from this. Their instability may be partly due to cultural influences (or the lack of them), but I think more accurately, it is due to psychological and physiological difficulties with independence. It's like when you release a domesticated animal, such as a dog, into the wild. Suddenly they're forced to fend for themselves, after hundreds of years of selective breeding, and and entire life of them being fed by their masters. It becomes difficult to cope, and they often show erratic behaviour.

It's a matter of minimum effort needed to accomplish your goal effectively. Since the serviles are social creatures with human or near-human level intelligence, they would be able to function on their own unless they were somehow intentionally crippled (in other words, it would require more work to create human-like organisms incapable of surviving on their own than the opposite). While I certainly wouldn't put it past the Shapers to include some sort of genetic "booby-trap" to keep them dependant, we see no evidence of this and, if something of the like did exist, it certainly doesn't work very efficiently (since the serviles were doing pretty well under the circumstances). And why would they include something like this for the weakling Serviles, but not the uber-powerful drakes who had absolutely no problem surviving independantly (and, in fact, prone to rebellion).

Comparison to domesticated animals are disingenuous, because dogs aren't sapient, while Serviles unarguably are.

Just something I found interesting, all of the Shaper groups, even the Takers, would ask for your assistance. It shows a lack of real independence, and I would think, if the Shapers were to come back to Sucia Isle, most serviles would slip back to their old ways. I really don't think that the serviles had adapted all that much. They probably still all had genetic triggers built deep inside of them that made them act a certain way toward Shapers, or real humans.

Well, consider the circumstances. They are beset by rogue monsters, incapable of using the powerful abilities they'd need to defeat them, and you show up bearing the robes of a society with the power over life and death. They needed your help, not because they were "inherently dependant", but because you had access to a lot of power that they didn't.

And, as to the genetic trigger thing, it's all speculation. I include it again in the first paragraph about "minimum effort". If they are taught from birth to be servile and have nowhere near the raw physical power to rebel against their masters, I would say it was likely further genetic coersion would prove unneccessary, and therefore left out.

I think that that was something to do with the influence of the Sholai, myself. Also, the conditions of the area that they were in had a large factor in their ideals. They were clearly the the most hard done by group of serviles on the island, and they harboured resentment for the Shaper 'gods' for this.

Er... the Sholai? Why? How? Are you talking about the rogue canister using Sholai? In that event, it would amount to the same thing. It was exposure to the unnatural influence of the Geneforge and the canisters that rendered them cookoo, and their position was neither rationally viable nor proof of some inherent psychological flaw in their genes. As for your latter point, that's probably a definite influence, but it wouldn't account for the truly wierd/pointless stuff they started doing (like defacing statues or adopting that wierd dialect).

The problem was that they were serviles, subhuman. They had no right, if they were presuming to Obey the Shapers, to decide which ones to Obey.
I thought that they were as rogue as the rest of them, since their leader presumed to order you what to do with the Geneforge.

Well, they had no higher authority to appeal to. If they knew it was possible for a Shaper to "go rogue", they had no recourse for determining this other than their own judgement, based on the teachings of the Shapers they had formerly served under. Again, they were serving "the Shapers", not "a Shaper". Remember that they didn't necessarily consider themselves subhuman, they simply felt they owed a debt to the Shaper society for their creation (some even thought that after a period of service, they might be worthy of freedom [as if the Shapers would agree to this]).
 

Deathy

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Sustenus Paul said:
It's a matter of minimum effort needed to accomplish your goal effectively. Since the serviles are social creatures with human or near-human level intelligence, they would be able to function on their own unless they were somehow intentionally crippled (in other words, it would require more work to create human-like organisms incapable of surviving on their own than the opposite). While I certainly wouldn't put it past the Shapers to include some sort of genetic "booby-trap" to keep them dependant, we see no evidence of this and, if something of the like did exist, it certainly doesn't work very efficiently (since the serviles were doing pretty well under the circumstances). And why would they include something like this for the weakling Serviles, but not the uber-powerful drakes who had absolutely no problem surviving independantly (and, in fact, prone to rebellion).
The Shapers strike me to be very methodical. If they make a creature, they would try the hardest they could to eliminate all of its weaknesses. Attributes such as loyalty would be genetically imbued. They would have to be, otherwise the creatures are inherently dangerous, which is why they don't create Drayks (I think that's the correct spelling) anymore. Serviles were essentially the servants of the Shapers, cooks, cleaners amd secretaries, I'm dubious about farming, as they don't seem to have the right characteristics for it, there was probably another variety of servile for hard labour, which we don't see on Sucia, because it was a research facility and food was likely imported. Anyway, as those types of servants are in a position to do great damage, unalterable loyalty is a must, otherwise the Shapers would be vunerable to attack. The Shapers aren't the sort to let that weakness exist. In my opinion, there has to be some kind of genetic trigger for loyalty, even if it only works for the creator of the individual servile.
There are numerous instances of serviles on the island that aren't rogue, you can try to free them, but they don't understand the meaning of freedom.

Comparison to domesticated animals are disingenuous, because dogs aren't sapient, while Serviles unarguably are.
Not really, if you take into account the traditional ideas of the Shapers. They were servants, and that is all that they were. The Shapers treated them as domesticated animals. This is an innacurate belief, but since domesticated serviles were treated pretty much the same way as dogs, there is bound to be similarities.
It could make for an interesting (although unethical) social experiment in the real world.

Well, consider the circumstances. They are beset by rogue monsters, incapable of using the powerful abilities they'd need to defeat them, and you show up bearing the robes of a society with the power over life and death. They needed your help, not because they were "inherently dependant", but because you had access to a lot of power that they didn't.
It could be argued that the very fact that you are more powerful than them makes then inherently dependent upon you. It may not be genetic, but the whole "Shaper = god" thing features heavily in all of the groups, even if they don't want to admit it and even fight against it.

And, as to the genetic trigger thing, it's all speculation. I include it again in the first paragraph about "minimum effort". If they are taught from birth to be servile and have nowhere near the raw physical power to rebel against their masters, I would say it was likely further genetic coersion would prove unneccessary, and therefore left out.
Well, yes, I'll agree that it is pretty much all speculation, but such things make sense when you take into account the character of the Shapers.


Er... the Sholai? Why? How? Are you talking about the rogue canister using Sholai? In that event, it would amount to the same thing. It was exposure to the unnatural influence of the Geneforge and the canisters that rendered them cookoo, and their position was neither rationally viable nor proof of some inherent psychological flaw in their genes. As for your latter point, that's probably a definite influence, but it wouldn't account for the truly wierd/pointless stuff they started doing (like defacing statues or adopting that wierd dialect).
I was thinking that the change was partly due to Trakjov and his augmented Sholai stirring them up more against the Shapers. As for their strange acts, they're not so strange if you look upon it as stereotypical adolescent behaviour (Fight the power). It's possible that the servile mind is little more than that of a childs.


Well, they had no higher authority to appeal to. If they knew it was possible for a Shaper to "go rogue", they had no recourse for determining this other than their own judgement, based on the teachings of the Shapers they had formerly served under. Again, they were serving "the Shapers", not "a Shaper". Remember that they didn't necessarily consider themselves subhuman, they simply felt they owed a debt to the Shaper society for their creation (some even thought that after a period of service, they might be worthy of freedom [as if the Shapers would agree to this]).
The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy. Their knowledge of the Shapers after hundreds of years without contact is likely misunderstood, so they are no authority on the matter. And when they do consider you a true Shaper, the leader starts giving you suggestions that sound mightily like orders.

Moving on (since I think we're starting to exhaust the possibilities of discussion about servile culture), here's an interesting ethical question: The Shapers made these creations, do they have the right to enslave them?
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Sustenus Paul said:
Yes, but the serviles, unlike every other creature (except maybe the dragons) managed to evolve, form societies, and actually reach the point where ideological debate was a useful passtime.

What about the Battle Alphas that had that small town near the middle of the map? What about that Servant Mind up north that was fairly independent and even had a flock of creations who lived in the building with it in pretty much a town-like fashion?

There are more examples of other creations becoming independent and societal in the game than just the Serviles and those CryoDrayks.

However, to say the Awakenned had the right to kill that Servant Mind because he was still following Shaper orders is wrong. You could use the same argument against the Obeyers, who where still out to do the bidding of the Shapers, including keeping the Servant Minds functioning.

Maybe that Servant Mind the Awakenned killed would never shake the idea that the Shapers were benefactors, maybe it would have. No one will ever know though, because the Awakenned butchered it.

The Servant Minds were replaying old commands and living in self-delusion, because they were utterly incapable of imagining more for themselves. Unless the island were retaken by the Shapers (which was never going to happen) they were incapable of happiness or satisfaction in their current existances. They maybe didn't "deserve" death, but life held nothing for them.

Life holds the chance of becoming something better. If you're pro-independent creations, then there are examples throughout the game of this occuring in most creations, as I pointed out.
 

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