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Glittering Gems of Hatred - part 3

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
27,919
<a href=http://www.nma-fallout.com>NMA</a> has released yet another <a href=http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=34772>sequel</a> to its popular "Glittering Gems of Hatred" TV show, aimed at educating the masses against their will:

<blockquote>People say that a development from isometric turn-based to first-person real-time is both expected and natural. They were probably born when Clinton was president and never took the trouble to study and compare the actual development of both approaches. The real-time comment is obviously flawed because, if you never noticed, Pong was real-time. The first-person view comment is also odd and neglects the fact that the 1980's game Akabaleth was probably the first first-person cRPG. Akabaleth was released at a time when the prevailing view was top-down. In fact, not a single isometric cRPG had been made pror to the time Akabaleth was released. Not only does the "technology" argument hold no ground, but even worse: first-person predates isometric, meaning a consistent innovation-arguer would have to be in favor of isometric view.

The next step should be obvious: if first-person view predates isometric view, then what is the innovative value being given to the reinvention of the Fallout series? Or if you want to look at it from another angle (slightly overlapping "Oblivion with Guns"), what is innovative about Bethesda removing core tenets of the Fallout games to replace them with elements we have already seen in their own games? First-person view? Real-time combat? PC-console version? I'm sorry, but seen it.</blockquote>Lies. All lies. Akabaleth sounds totally made up.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
23,939
Finally, a more honest part. He just flat out admitted to being a fanboy who likes to bullshit. It might be shitty; but it sure beats the lameness of trying to pretend to be impartial when you aren't. I give the article points for that. Not many; but some.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Vault Dweller said:
Lies. All lies. Akabaleth sounds totally made up.

Well...it is. The writer transposed a few letters; the actual title is "Akalabeth". :lol:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
27,919
I know. It was one of the first games I've played. The most immersive graphics evar!
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
I would say that "Akabaleth" reminds me too much of "Bat'leth", but then I'd look like a nerd.
 

jiujitsu

Cipher
Joined
Mar 11, 2004
Messages
1,444
Project: Eternity
Valiant attempt, but I think we are passed the point of seeing a turn-based Fallout 3. Maybe there is some compromise.
 

taxacaria

Scholar
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
343
Location
Waterdeep
Vault Dweller said:
I know. It was one of the first games I've played. The most immersive graphics evar!

But it has been the begin of the Ultima series - same as "Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord" for wizardry - and at that time both were most innovative games in RPG design.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
988
I remember playing Spectrum's 2D isometric games, prior to Akalabeth...
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
I am an avowed fan of first person RPG's, but I don't really think anybody argues that "isometric" (in a broad sense as a 2/3 from above viewpoint, not as a 2D graphics engine principle) doesn't still have advantages and actually still has quite a dominant position in the market. Most action RPG's, especially those involving party combat focus on that perspective, or at least offer it as an option. Hell, even in Oblivion you could zoom out far enough to get a nearly isometric view, only it made little sense for the gameplay in that game (IMHO)- still some people play it that way. In games with a strong strategic bend, such as Spellforce, I use "isometric" almost exclusively. Similar arguments hold true to the choice of combat system (TB, RTwP, RT) - ultimately the question is what your desired gameplay is.
If they want to replicate the strategic gameplay, the flow of the original games in FO3, then they ideed have to focus on the isometric perspective, mabe offering first person as an option. If they don't, then the game will play very different. It would not be the first series to take such turns though. It might be better off with a different name than FO3 (like Ultima UW to the Ultima series), but ultiamtely that is semantics.
 

Bradylama

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,410
Location
Oklahomo
If first person was an option they would either have to balance the game and make combat less appealing for isometric views, or the First Person or Isometric functions would be unplayable, ala playing Oblivion in 3rd-person or "isometric."

Games shouldn't have these options. If a game is designed to have a rotatable camera, that's cool, but it completely changes the way information is conveyed to the player.

Personally, I don't care much for rotatable cameras because there's always the chance that I've missed something twirling around or zooming in. Games should have appreciable feedback and gameplay such as destructible environments and tactical combat, if they're going to convey a fully-3D environment with a 360 degree perspective.

I got tired of fighting the camera in NWN2 before I got tired of fighting skeletons.
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Messages
617
Location
Check out my massive package.
NMA is a bunch of faggots. I find it hilarious that they think their opinion matters enough to write these self-indulgent blogs.

At least the Codex is backing up its vitriol with an actual product (Age of Decadence). All NMA has done in all these years is bitch.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
27,055
GhanBuriGhan said:
I am an avowed fan of first person RPG's, but I don't really think anybody argues that "isometric" (in a broad sense as a 2/3 from above viewpoint, not as a 2D graphics engine principle) doesn't still have advantages and actually still has quite a dominant position in the market.
Actually, people do argue that. A lot. A hell of a lot, in fact. Most of the Fallout forums are hit with "Isometric is old" and "turn-based is outdated" more often than anything else. There's no concept that both could, shock horror, exist in the same gaming marketplace at the same time.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
6,699
undead dolphin hacker: Oh, I haven't recieved my part in AoD yet, what was it I am doing for the game (besides probably buying it)?

And while we are there, what is your position in Iron Tower, the name of the....Corporation :wink: ....who is creating this game?

NMA is a natural Ally. It would be foolish to start range wars with such a rare breed in todays gaming climate. Especially based on BS.
 

Koby

Scholar
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
356
Ladonna said:
And while we are there, what is your position in Iron Tower, the name of the....Corporation :wink: ....who is creating this game?

Feedback team member. =P

/edit

i hate the tongue emoticons here, the tongue part should be more obvious should be more like this
face-icon-small-tongue.gif
 

dagorkan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
5,164
UDH is right but LaDonna has a point too, there's no point in fighting over what's a dead game anyway. NMA at least have the right intentions.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
6,699
I sense that they have been flamed....hard at NMA in the past. From reading the forums over the years I always thought it was easier to get attacked here. Though its easier to get banned at NMA.

Anyway, whatever I occasionally think of some of its people, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
 

dagorkan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
5,164
Can't speak for my friend dolphin fucker, but I've never been been flamed at NMA. Just an observation from lurking on their forums.
 

Bradylama

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,410
Location
Oklahomo
NMA does seem to be getting a bit dumber, and I'm not sure if it's because of runoff from ESF or because more people are de-lurking.

Dolphin Cracker's still a fucknut.
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Messages
617
Location
Check out my massive package.
Ladonna said:
undead dolphin hacker: Oh, I haven't recieved my part in AoD yet, what was it I am doing for the game (besides probably buying it)?

And while we are there, what is your position in Iron Tower, the name of the....Corporation :wink: ....who is creating this game?

NMA is a natural Ally. It would be foolish to start range wars with such a rare breed in todays gaming climate. Especially based on BS.
Obviously it's Vault Dweller's game, not the Codex's game, but fuck, even that makes NMA look bad. Not even ONE of those dweebs, after seven years of bitching, has gotten off his ass and decided to *do* something about it.
 

Bradylama

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,410
Location
Oklahomo
Apparently Rosh is coding AI for a game I don't think he's project leader on, and any other efforts at making another Fallout-like game is put into modding.

Vault Dweller is such an exception to the rule you might as well just call us all dicks for not defying gravity. Aliens are doing it, right?
 

dagorkan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
5,164
The difference is that we are not obsessed fanboys of one game or franchise. We play and comment on other games - RPGs in general. These guys act like Fallout is the only thing in their lives and all they do is talk about it for ten years. That's a kind of worrying level of nostalgia. Sometimes you have to know when to let go. And not write another twenty thousand word essay on it.
 

Bradylama

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,410
Location
Oklahomo
Fallout would be worth letting go if they allowed it to die. Fuck me if I wanted a good sequel.
 

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