Interview Gothic 3 interview at TVG

Astromarine · Oct 27, 2005

Ugh. needs an international bank transfer. Thanks for your help, but I think I'll wait for the rerelease the interview talked about.

Fresh · Oct 27, 2005

How come they arent hyping G3 more? Would it hurt to release a couple of screens every now and then. I cant believe the effort involved would not pay off in FREE advertising across the net?

The Witcher-team is doing a much better job imo.

Sure interviews are nice, but screens, vids, concept art are nice too.

FrancoTAU · Oct 27, 2005

Nice to see one of the high budget RPG houses making an actual RPG. They're close enough to the release date where i'd imagine they've already implemented most of these features. I'm hoping anyways, more smoke up the ass for an RPG would suck

crpgnut · Oct 27, 2005

I couldn't stomach the 1st two Gothics though I would really love to finish them. My main gripe is that both games focus on non-magic based combat and I'm a mage at heart.

The 2nd biggie is that there were really no choices in character skills in either game. You pick your class near the beginning and then you have to focus on that class almost exclusively if you want to survive. Mages were nearly impossible to play in the beginning.

That said, I have high hopes for G3 as well. It's not looking nearly as pretty as Oblivion, but I don't really care that much about graphics. If they can tone down the combat a little and increase skill and character choices, I'll gladly pre-order this game.

GhanBuriGhan · Oct 27, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
This sounds very, VERY cool. Looks like the RPG genre has its champion once again.

I don't get you VD. I love the Gothics, but as you pointed out to me, I apparently love adventure type games more than RPG's :roll:

and Gothic is clearly more an adventure than a RPG, and certainly less feature rich than MW. Yet here you are all exited about a game, that even by the interviews has much less RPG features than Oblivion that you spurn where you can. Gothic has no character creation, three "classes" of which two play very much alike, simple dialogue, and largely linear questlines - shall I extend the list? All of which is likely still the case for 3 - after all we don't know different and thus have to assume the worst, right? I am very much looking forward to G3, but I really think you shouldn't be allowed to

Microsky · Oct 27, 2005

How come they arent hyping G3 more? Would it hurt to release a couple of screens every now and then. I cant believe the effort involved would not pay off in FREE advertising across the net?

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

GhanBuriGhan said:
I love the Gothics, but as you pointed out to me, I apparently love adventure type games more than RPG's and Gothic is clearly more an adventure than a RPG, and certainly less feature rich than MW.

The first two Gothic games are adventure games with some RPG elements. However, the trend points at developing the RPG aspects more. The interview shows that G3 would feature very strong RPG elements, the ones we always praise at the Codex: distinctive choices & consequences. That should explain my reaction.

Let's review my news post:

1. More skills, combination of skills, better character system
2. Radically different choices, you can side with the Orcs or the humans, consequences of those choices
3. More consequences, quests are not isolated, but are a part of a larger scenario
4. Multiple solutions

Any game that has those features is a good game in my book regardless of combat, view, graphics, etc. That's what role-playing is all about.

Yet here you are all exited about a game, that even by the interviews has much less RPG features than Oblivion that you spurn where you can.

Less RPG features? Less than in Oblivion? You must be kidding.

Gothic has no character creation

While DF featured one of the best systems, Bethesda has dumbed the OB character system down to the point where there is practically no difference between having a token character system and having none at all. My very detailed DF characters could be recreated with 3 skills in OB: long blade, athletics, sneaking. Wow! Teh revolushun!

three "classes" of which two play very much alike

Well, in MW most classes played very much alike, so no points here

simple dialogue

You are comparing this game to Oblivion, right? Just checking.

and largely linear questlines

Again, we are talking about MW/OB here, right? Gothic 2 had a huge world where you could do whatever you want, just like in TES games, but on a lesser scale. Unlike MW though, the first part of the game was completely non-linear.

All of which is likely still the case for 3 - after all we don't know different and thus have to assume the worst, right?

Uh, no. I look at the track record. I see a steady improvement from G1 to G2, doing more with every game, moving away from the console market, betting on the PC fans who made the franchise successful, and a strong anti-dumbing down position. Fuck, that's like the opposite of Bethesda. That's why I believe the Gothic guys, and doubt the "trust us, it will be cool" Bethesda's position.

Does that explain my position?

GhanBuriGhan · Oct 27, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
The first two Gothic games are adventure games with some RPG elements. However, the trend points at developing the RPG aspects more. The interview shows that G3 would feature very strong RPG elements, the ones we always praise at the Codex: distinctive choices & consequences. That should explain my reaction.

you have one choice that is mentioned in the interview - to align with orcs or humans. You had three in Gothic one : old, new, and the sleepers camp: where is the RehvoushioN?

Let's review my news post:

1. More skills, combination of skills, better character system

Well, they can hardly have any less than they did. The mini-talents sound much like Oblivions skill perks to me.

2. Radically different choices, you can side with the Orcs or the humans, consequences of those choices

But once made they are probably just two different linear questlines. Thats a pattern in all gothics so far. Still, thats very nice, I agree.

3. More consequences, quests are not isolated, but are a part of a larger scenario

Bethesda has made the same claim for its Faction quests. why does gothic Dev's words carry more weight?

4. Multiple solutions

No contest here, Gothic wins.

Any game that has those features is a good game in my book regardless of combat, view, graphics, etc. That's what role-playing is all about.

Less RPG features? Less than in Oblivion? You must be kidding.

No I am not. Seriously. Lets see...
- A fully developed stealth system - OB wins
- Speechcraft skill - OB wins
- Swimming - OB wins
- Acrobatics - OB wins
- Evil guilds - OB likely wins
- Character creation - OB wins
- Character progression - even
- Dialogue - even
- Nonlinearity/multiple endings - Gothic wins
- Crafting: Gothic proably wins
- Amount of factions: likely advantage Oblivion
- Detail of factions: likely advantage Gothic, but not by as much as for MW
- Magic: Advantage Oblivion - way more detailed system.

Thats what I gather form the released info. I think its fine to LIKE Gothic better, but to claim it objectively has more RPG elements is ridiculous.

"Gothic has no character creation" -
While DF featured one of the best systems, Bethesda has dumbed the OB character system down to the point where there is practically no difference between having a token character system and having none at all. My very detailed DF characters could be recreated with 3 skills in OB: long blade, athletics, sneaking. Wow! Teh revolushun!

First, from those interviews we still know nothing about that greatly improved gothic system. Which according to your logic as applied to Oblivion means it's probably bad. Secondly, you still have 21 Skills in Oblivion, which is a lot less than DF, admittedly, but its not an insignificant number either. Plus you have the skill perks and signs. I agree its been going downhill from DF, but that does not necessarily mean its BAD, its just less good

Well, in MW most classes played very much alike, so no points here

Only if you didn't roleplay them, which shouldn't be a problem for a real Codexer. You had the OPTION to create very different characters, and you will again in Oblivion. If you couldn't make this work, that's your problem. Any way, there remains the fact that there is NO charcter creation in Gothic, a fun and important part of any RPG in my book. There is als very little character customization and I don't see huge improvements with Gothic 3 in the released info.

"simple dialogue" -
You are comparing this game to Oblivion, right? Just checking.

from the examples I have seen or heard being described from the hands-on's, dialogue will play out very similar to the Gothic's. So what's your point?

"and largely linear questlines" -
Again, we are talking about MW/OB here, right? Gothic 2 had a huge world where you could do whatever you want, just like in TES games, but on a lesser scale. Unlike MW though, the first part of the game was completely non-linear.

Uh huh. And the second part was not. Which is what I thought should have you all in a rage, the way you go on about TES' horrible linearity.

Uh, no. I look at the track record. I see a steady improvement from G1 to G2, doing more with every game, moving away from the console market, betting on the PC fans who made the franchise successful, and a strong anti-dumbing down position. Fuck, that's like the opposite of Bethesda. That's why I believe the Gothic guys, and doubt the "trust us, it will be cool" Bethesda's position.

Does that explain my position?

No. According to you its better to start out from a very dumbed down game and add a sprinkling RPG in every iteration than to start with a very complex game and streamline it, but still end up with a game with way more freedom and way more RPG elements. I fail to see the logic, and more importantly your coveted objectivity in that. I would rather compare games individually - the other games are the past and will not influence my enjoyment of the present game (other than through continuing storylines, etc. of course)

Drakron · Oct 27, 2005

You know what GhanBuriGhan ... fuck you.

Go to TES forums, VD is pointing out that Gothic is EVOLVING as a RPG since they were adding more and more non linear paths and adding depth to their skill system as Oblivion is removing skills and adding mini games when its not cloning Thief.

Comparing Gothic 3 to 2 is what we are doing, just like we do with Oblivion to Morrowind ... but you too much of a Bethsoft fanboy to realize that so go buy a Xbox 360 and get in line for Oblivion and leave us alone since you have nothing to add to the discustion besides "Oblivion is better".

GhanBuriGhan · Oct 27, 2005

Drakron said:
You know what GhanBuriGhan ... fuck you.

Go to TES forums, VD is pointing out that Gothic is EVOLVING as a RPG since they were adding more and more non linear paths and adding depth to their skill system as Oblivion is removing skills and adding mini games when its not cloning Thief.

Comparing Gothic 3 to 2 is what we are doing, just like we do with Oblivion to Morrowind ... but you too much of a Bethsoft fanboy to realize that so go buy a Xbox 360 and get in line for Oblivion and leave us alone since you have nothing to add to the discustion besides "Oblivion is better".

I think in the post above I have added WAY more to the discussion than you just did. So did VD by the way. If you have arguments, lets hear them, if all you have to say is fuck you, then I will take the liberty to ingnore you. I post here because its fun having discussions with people like VD and some others occasionally, and discussions are based on disagreement - you guys proud yourself at NOT being the hivemind you are often accused of being. Well, you will have to do better than your last post to live up to that.

Twinfalls · Oct 27, 2005

What do you mean by

if you guys pride yourselves at NOT being the hivemind you are often accused of being

?

You post here too, don't you?

Drakron · Oct 27, 2005

In what?

Because you compare Oblivion and Gothic 3 that use completly diferent systems and better you compare Oblivion that have released details over the system they are using to Gothic 3 that have not, only that they are altering the system.

You added nothing, just that "Oblivion is better" because Gothic 3 had not disclosed anything about gameplay changes, there is little to talk about Gothic 3 at this stage, let alone to start comparing it to other games.

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

GhanBuriGhan said:
you have one choice that is mentioned in the interview - to align with orcs or humans. You had three in Gothic one : old, new, and the sleepers camp: where is the RehvoushioN?

The 3 choices in G1 were non-conflicting with each other and sorta worked toward the same goal: to get the hell out. The 2 choices in G3, although there are different factions within the pro-human choice at least, according to what I've heard, are radically different. There are 2 sides who are pretty much against each other. You pick one side and that affects another a lot, because you are acting against them. According to the article, you won't have to wait long for the consequences. Compare that to 4 Oblivion "non-overlaping" factions.

Well, they can hardly have any less than they did. The mini-talents sound much like Oblivions skill perks to me.

I hope you can see a difference between mini-talents that you can pick and combine into something else and perks that are granted automatically.

But once made they are probably just two different linear questlines. Thats a pattern in all gothics so far. Still, thats very nice, I agree.

Linear doesn't mean bad, does it? However, G2 non-linear vs linear ratio was much higher than that in G1, so, once again, I hope that the trend will continue. I prefer non-linearity, isometric view, and TB combat, but that doesn't mean that a linear FP real-time game is bad. Wouldn't have liked DF so much otherwise.

Bethesda has made the same claim for its Faction quests. why does gothic Dev's words carry more weight?

Track record. Simple as that. MW was dumbed down, but comparing to Oblivion it looks like a very complex game now. Bethesda made many claims like "complex and intricate mage quests" before MW was released. Most of that was wishful thinking commonly known as bullshit.

- A fully developed stealth system - OB wins

Remains to be seen. Didn't work all that great in the tutorial according to the Russians.

- Speechcraft skill - OB wins

Remains to be seen. The implementation sucked in MW, and I'm not excited about the "rotate the wheel and try to spot the reaction" minigame in OB.

- Swimming - OB wins

You can swim in Gothic, unless you mean underwater exploration.

- Acrobatics - OB wins

What does it do? Can you climb walls? No. Can you jump over large pits like in DF? No. So, what's the point? Run faster?

- Evil guilds - OB likely wins

Remains to be seen. Were the guilds very evil in DF/MW? No. Yes, they can give you a quest to kill someone, but they don't have some large evil agendas. As for the evil path, siding with the Orcs sounds kinda evil to me, at least from the human point of view.

- Character creation - OB wins

Remains to be seen. G3 system has been improved. OB system has been dumbed down. That doesn't mean that the G3 system is actually good and the OB system is bad, but we can't judge that category yet.

- Amount of factions: likely advantage Oblivion

Hard to say. There were 3 faction in G1, 4 factions in G2, and there could be more in G3. We know that there are only 4 factions in OB plus some rumors about the fifth one.

- Magic: Advantage Oblivion - way more detailed system.

Clear win

Thats what I gather form the released info. I think its fine to LIKE Gothic better, but to claim it objectively has more RPG elements is ridiculous.

See above

First, from those interviews we still know nothing about that greatly improved gothic system. Which according to your logic as applied to Oblivion means it's probably bad. Secondly, you still have 21 Skills in Oblivion, which is a lot less than DF, admittedly, but its not an insignificant number either. Plus you have the skill perks and signs. I agree its been going downhill from DF, but that does not necessarily mean its BAD, its just less good

Agree, see above

Only if you didn't roleplay them, which shouldn't be a problem for a real Codexer. You had the OPTION to create very different characters, and you will again in Oblivion.

Yes, very different. Fighter, Mage, Thief! The gap between Gothic and TES has just become smaller.

from the examples I have seen or heard being described from the hands-on's, dialogue will play out very similar to the Gothic's. So what's your point?

Similar? Yes. Before you criticized Gothic for having weak dialogues.

Uh huh. And the second part was not. Which is what I thought should have you all in a rage, the way you go on about TES' horrible linearity.

Have you ever heard me bitching about "TES' horrible linearity"?

No. According to you its better to start out from a very dumbed down game and add a sprinkling RPG in every iteration than to start with a very complex game and streamline it, but still end up with a game with way more freedom and way more RPG elements.

I wasn't impressed with G1, and thought it was meh. I noted the potential and nice unique atmosphere of the first part of the game though.

I enjoyed Gothic 2 more, still as an adventure game mostly, (similarly I enjoyed MW as an exploration game) but noted the growing RPG elements and the shift toward the RPG side. The third game seems to be the first solid RPG title in the series. That's the claim, and the track record backs that claim up, enough to take it seriously.

Now, the ES games. The situation is reversed. The first two are solid complex, even innovative games. MW and OB are dumbed down console games first and PC games second reflecting all the console limitations. The RPG elements are shrinking from game to game to accomodate console and casual players (see Rulion's comments "Argh! I had to make a choice! Now I'm pissed off!"). More character stats/skills rolls are replaced by players controlled mini-games. That's why I'm more interested in G3 than in Oblivion.

I fail to see the logic, and more importantly your coveted objectivity in that. I would rather compare games individually - the other games are the past and will not influence my enjoyment of the present game (other than through continuing storylines, etc. of course)

I do compare them individually otherwise I'd always praise TES games because of Arena and Daggerfall. I look at the recent games to see patterns and trends, and to evaluate developers' claims. Nothing tells me that G3 developers shouldn't be taken seriously, while Bethesda lied and tried to weasel out of questionable situations many times.

GhanBuriGhan · Oct 27, 2005

Drakron said:
In what?

Because you compare Oblivion and Gothic 3 that use completly diferent systems and better you compare Oblivion that have released details over the system they are using to Gothic 3 that have not, only that they are altering the system.

You added nothing, just that "Oblivion is better" because Gothic 3 had not disclosed anything about gameplay changes, there is little to talk about Gothic 3 at this stage, let alone to start comparing it to other games.

I was posting to find out why the same guy that trashes Oblivion in every post about it sings the praise of Gothic 3. I love the Gothic Games and find them superior to TES in some ways (and vice-versa), but I think they are clearly lesser RPG's which after all is what this site is about and what VD champions. Why is that not a valid reason to post?
As to the information released- since I am following OB very closely (in that aspect at least I AM a "fanboy", also not I think in the way you meant it), i think I have probably seen some information about it that was released on forums, fan interviews, etc., that you may not have read - and I think all I listed above is verified information, although the comparison may be opinionated - you are welcome to point out where I am wrong.

protobob · Oct 27, 2005

I loved how in the Gothic games you can beat the crap out of someone and steal their gear while they are unconcious and yet you don't have to kill them unless you wan't to. That needs to be in more games.

I also thought the combat was a lot of fun, esp. against opponents with weapons.
Magic also worked really well in Gothic 2 (didn't try it in 1).

Microsky · Oct 27, 2005

Hard to say. There were 3 faction in G1, 4 factions in G2, and there could be more in G3.

At least 6 (maybe more):

- Orks
- Assasins
- Rebels
- Nomads
- Woodrunner(Hunters?)
- Slavehunters

(my translation)

There will be also 6 possible jobs, smith and gladiator confirmed.

There will be 3 possible ways for the main quest: the ways of Innos, Adanos and Beliar. Different endings, too. Religion will play a big role in G3. There wonÂ´t be magic in the beginning though (part of the main quest is to bring magic back)...

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

GhanBuriGhan said:
I was posting to find out why the same guy that trashes Oblivion in every post about it sings the praise of Gothic 3.

I will praise anyone who's trying to make a better RPG, and I'll criticize people who dumb RPGs down, remove skills and demonstrate ignorance of RPG mechanics. Here is a quote that goes with it:

"Whatâ€™s one aspect of Morrowind that has been dropped because it didnâ€™t add anything to gameplay?

Climbing walls. There was nowhere to really use it well, and in too many areas you could climb to things in very odd ways that we didnâ€™t want you getting to. We made all these funky rules, tried to account for all the advanced geometry we were building, but it just wasnâ€™t working well and was exploiting areas we had built for other reasons."
It's too fucking funny and stupid at the same time.

Btw, I have never said that Oblivion will suck. My criticism was directed at developers and media, just like my praised are aimed at developers too.

I love the Gothic Games and find them superior to TES in some ways (and vice-versa), but I think they are clearly lesser RPG's which after all is what this site is about and what VD champions.

I'd agree with that, but looks like status quo is about to change, which was the point of my news post. If you recall I didn't post "Gothic RPGs are da bomb! lol".

Drakron · Oct 27, 2005

Really ... then we need to add 3 more, Fire mages, Water mages and Necromancers since if mages ARE a class and Dark Magic is a possible path then they must be trainer/fraction.

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

Microsky said:
Hard to say. There were 3 faction in G1, 4 factions in G2, and there could be more in G3.

Click to expand...

At least 6 (maybe more):

- Orks
- Assasins
- Rebels
- Nomads
- Woodrunner(Hunters?)
- Slavehunters

(my translation)

There will be also 6 possible jobs, smith and gladiator confirmed.

There will be 3 possible ways for the main quest: the ways of Innos, Adanos and Beliar. Different endings, too. Religion will play a big role in G3. There wonÂ´t be magic in the beginning though (part of the main quest is to bring magic back)...

Pretty cool. Any more info?

Microsky · Oct 27, 2005

Pretty cool. Any more info?

LetÂ´s look...

- Point Â´n Click Combat option --> stats are more important, player skills less (most likely connected with a difficulty slider)

- more skills, perks --> no more info yet

- enhanced AI (somehow a standard feature these days...)--> informations will take longer to reach other NPCs, for example; or more variety in the daily routine

- game world 4-5 times as large as Khorinis + Valley + add-on area

-20 settlements

- funny stuff about mounts: first, the devs wanted mounts + combat, then they said that the combat stuff was to difficult to implement (sounds familliar? :wink: ) and that they probably will cancel mounts as "there isnÂ´t a reason to keep them without combat" :D

- you donÂ´t have to join a faction

- there will be endurance for running and swimming (just like TES, I think)

- different weapons will have different (dis-)advantages

- release of a Modkit but nothing like the TES one

-more freedom, more quests (also later in the game) with multiple solutions

-no chapters

Edit:

Really ... then we need to add 3 more, Fire mages, Water mages and Necromancers since if mages ARE a class and Dark Magic is a possible path then they must be trainer/fraction.

Yes, but itÂ´s not sure if they are joinable yet... The devs are damn silent about the way you level up, so itÂ´s not certain that there are trainers anymore (but they likely are) ...

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

Thanks

GhanBuriGhan · Oct 27, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
I'd agree with that, but looks like status quo is about to change, which was the point of my news post. If you recall I didn't post "Gothic RPGs are da bomb! lol".

Which is what I don't see the evidence for, but OK. Actually you now kind of agreed with me that Gothic and TES are becoming more similar, which was my point in a previous post you contested.

I might have some time to go into your specific replies later - right now I am at work.

Just one thing about "track record" - Gothic 2 was hyped to have much improved AI schedules - I found that to simply be untrue, there were WAY more NPC who just hung out in the same spot day or night than in G1. Also, the story was in a way way more cliche than the prison setting of Gothic I. And MW improved TES in some areas even you should like - the lore, the landscape, the setting, the addition of summoning. Just to point out that the trends are not as unanimously clear as you make them out to be.

Vault Dweller · Oct 27, 2005

GhanBuriGhan said:
Which is what I don't see the evidence for, but OK.

You did notice that the character system was dumbed down, did you?

Actually you now kind of agreed with me that Gothic and TES are becoming more similar, which was my point in a previous post you contested.

Uh, it's not really what I agreed with. While some features are similar, the gameplay is very different. It's possible though that G3 would take more steps toward sandbox like gameplay and OB would be more story-driven game. Time will tell.

I hope that you will stick around and we'll have a better discussion after Oblivion is released.

Just one thing about "track record" - Gothic 2 was hyped to have much improved AI schedules - I found that to simply be untrue, there were WAY more NPC who just hung out in the same spot day or night than in G1. Also, the story was in a way way more cliche than the prison setting of Gothic I.

I've never claimed that G2 is a perfect game and the example to all the other RPGs out there. One thing is clear though, it's better and deeper RPG than G1, and that's the trend I was talking about.

And MW improved TES in some areas even you should like - the lore, the landscape, the setting, the addition of summoning. Just to point out that the trends are not as unanimously clear as you make them out to be.

And they've added crossbows, the armor skill, more armor pieces and other minor stuff that didn't have a huge effect on gameplay.

It's easy to add xbows, for example, it's much harder (but not a rocket science) to make them work. Bethesda failed at that, which is why they were removed in OB. Same goes for the summoning. It's not a big deal to spawn a creature, it's harder to make summoning an interesting mechanic. The lore was better, but that's the icing without a cake. Landscapes fall under the visual category which is one and the only things Bethesda does care about.

The trends are clear. The only question is how much is one willing to overlook.

TheGreatGodPan · Oct 28, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
I prefer non-linearity, isometric view, and TB combat, but that doesn't mean that a linear FP real-time game is bad. Wouldn't have liked DF so much otherwise.

Aren't you always going on about how non-linear Daggerfall was and how Morrowind is way more linear?

Making Gothic turn-based would seem like a pretty drastic change. I think it would be welcomed about as warmly by their fans as a real-time Fallout would be to Fallout fans.

Anoik · Oct 28, 2005

Do you know UFO: Enemy Unknow?. I really liked that game. It is turn based. Now, we have another game, UFO Aftershock, from another company. But it is turn based again. My point? i don't like drastic changes in the gameplay of my favourites games. If they make it action oriented, like a shooter.. tch tch... not for me, thanks.

Interview Gothic 3 interview at TVG

Erudite

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