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Has Fallout 3 become a legitimate topic of discussion?

MetalCraze

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Konjad said:
Skyway talking about being pretentious... :lol:

I still have yet to learn how to pretend to be an elite PC gamer, shitting on consoletards even though they are enjoying exactly the same games I am.
 

Roguey

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mysterious-stranger said:
fly into fucking space to find utopia
This was debunked way back when it gave 1eyedking an aneurysm. They're not flying into space, they're flying into a part of the wasteland that's filled with high levels of radiation where they'll be left alone. In one of the good endings for Novac, some of them even come back to help out the town.
 
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Roguey said:
mysterious-stranger said:
fly into fucking space to find utopia
This was debunked way back when it gave 1eyedking an aneurysm. They're not flying into space, they're flying into a part of the wasteland that's filled with high levels of radiation where they'll be left alone. In one of the good endings for Novac, some of them even come back to help out the town.

And....they need rockets for that because? Honestly it'd be easier to repair a car, if only for the sight of a Ghoul roadtrip
 

Gord

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They are the equivalent of religious crazys. Their leader is claiming he had a "vision" to bring "his people" to the "promised land" after all.

I considered it kind of a joke by the developers that their crazy plan did work out in the end.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Gord said:
They are the equivalent of religious crazys. Their leader is claiming he had a "vision" to bring "his people" to the "promised land" after all.

I considered it kind of a joke by the developers that their crazy plan did work out in the end.
Really? I didn't know their plan was succesful afterall. Damn there is a lot of hidden content in this game. I have to replay it someday. This is why New Vegas rocks. :smug:
 

Gord

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Actually it's never completely resolved. One possible ending mentions them coming back to help Novac.

But there's no word on whether they just crashed into some old junkyard and half of them died in the process or if they really found their version of paradise.
 

Kraszu

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Vault Dweller said:
Gothic's best features are setting/atmosphere and choosing a faction. Unfortunately, these features are sitting atop an awful fucking "base" game with a crappy character system, atrocious inventory, mediocre combat, painful dialogues, no dialogue skills, fucked up (due to high stat requirements) and limited (no armor) item distribution which makes exploring less rewarding and somewhat pointless, and fondness for grinding.

What the fucking bs.

Vault Dweller said:
crappy character system

It doesn't have many stats, but they are very important, and stats changing your animations (that influence gameplay) was never done like in Gothic game, so there are good, and bad things about it. It is minimalistic, and minimalistic =/= crappy. Mediocre would be fair.

Vault Dweller said:
atrocious inventory, mediocre combat

How is inventory atrocious you can select anything that you want in GI fast isn't that what you use inventory for? In G2 it was bad. Fighting system is good, you have to time your attacks right, and different enemies require different tactics, later on the range of your weapon can be abused too easily against most enemies but overall it is very good.

Vault Dweller said:
fucked up (due to high stat requirements) and limited (no armor) item distribution which makes exploring less rewarding and somewhat pointless, and fondness for grinding.

You need to explore to find weaker enemies that you can kill, how is that bad exploring there is no crpg with this feeling of danger. It was done especially well in G2, there is also plenty of very useful scrolls that you can find when exploring, and you can find some good weapons as well that don't require that much STR. Gothic introduces something much more interesting you have a gameworld where you have to plan on how to clean the world from monsters, there are scrolls that make it possible for low level char to kill them, there is limited amount of them, and are expensive (best done in G2). Also while exploring you discover quest related places.
 

SpaceKungFuMan

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I can't be the only one who stopped playing at the middle aged guy line, can I? I'm a hybrid pc game/consoletard who was as into jrpgs as pc rpgs until they moved to arpgs, and yet the bulk of the codex was actually able to play FO3? :decline:

And I think using FO:NV as proof that FO3 sucks makes perfect sense, because even on a shitty engine with shitty combat, Obsidian made a game that felt good (at least to me) with good writing and some interesting decisions.

Spoilers follow.

I was going to play FO:NV as a dick. My character concept from the start was to look out for myself, and everyone else can go to hell. Then I started doing some NCR quests, and hit a turning point when i retrieved that dead guy's body for his wife. The genuine gratitude from the soldiers and the wife was so well done (and the timing was perfect too, since that that topped me up to a new level of reputation with the NCR) that I no longer felt like I could turn my back on them. From then on, I was NCR all the way. The way that the world reacted, with soldiers all saying they heard of me, and even being granted clearance to places like the powerplant just by saying who I was really clicked for me, in a way that no game, even FO or PST has been able to do. . . . then I found Yes Man, and had a genuinely difficult choice between my natural prediliction to look out for myself in RPGs, and my status as hero of the NCR. So, at the risk of sounding like some stereoptypical movie critic, FO:NV was actually an "emotional rollercoaster" for me in that first play through. I have had similiar moments of awe in other games, like realizing I can devour Akachi's soul, but those are usually "I can't believe the game will let me do something so awesome" moments, not "I have to reevaluate how I am playing because I can't betray the people looking up to me."
 

racofer

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If you ignore the derpness of the characters/plot and slap a few good mods on it, FO3 becomes a really good post-apoc dungeon metro station crawler.
 

SpaceKungFuMan

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racofer said:
If you ignore the derpness of the characters/plot and slap a few good mods on it, FO3 becomes a really good post-apoc dungeon metro station crawler.

Number 1, I don't understand how anyone can get past the writing. Even pretending the name of the game is Post Apolyptic DC Crawl, the writing is probably the worst I have seen in a game. I am able to play poorly translated Eastern European games without the writing stopping me from enjoying the game, but FO3 was just that bad.

Number 2, I don't think anyone does exploration worse than Bethesda. Being able to pick up forks and knives is cool for ten minutes, but pretty soon, you realize that it just makes it harder to figure out what is actually worth taking, and it becomes a needless timesink just looking for what's good in a room.

Number 3, dungeon crawlers are about character progression, itemization, and combat. With the crappy loose stat based action combat, two of the three are already shit. And if you want to claim that Bethesda is good at itemization, more power to you. I don't play their games because they are so bad, but I have some friends who do, and even they bitch about the itemization.

Of course, I literally considered Daggerfall to be the worst game I ever played until Oblivion came out (although I only watched someone play oblvion for a couple of hours), so I guess something about Bethesda's games which other people must like (probably due to a genetic flaw) just doesn't appeal to me.
 

Sceptic

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mysterious-stranger said:
I love that all the stuff that sucked in F2 gets carried over to NV gets ignored in the former game.
Fixed :smug:

Admiral jimbob said:
It's like Hubologists never happened
Maybe all the self-proclaimed Fallout fans who rage about how FNV destroyed their beloved franchise never actually played FO2 :smug:
 
In My Safe Space
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Sceptic said:
Admiral jimbob said:
It's like Hubologists never happened
Maybe all the self-proclaimed Fallout fans who rage about how FNV destroyed their beloved franchise never actually played FO2 :smug:
You mean Fallout 2 where the future Obisdian guys started raping the Fallout setting? What the fuck is going on, do people get some kind of amnesia and forget what was discussed to death several years ago?

Sceptic said:
franchise
:x
 

Vault Dweller

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Kraszu said:
Vault Dweller said:
crappy character system

It doesn't have many stats, but they are very important...
Doesn't have many stats? It has two: Strength and Dexterity. Pick one or the other. And it's important not because it has a strong effect on gameplay but because the weapons progression is tied to the matching stat. So, if you want to use a sword that doesn't suck, you have to increase Strength. There isn't much choice there.

Skills? One-handed, two-handed, bow, crossbow, open locks, pickpocket, sneaking, acrobatics. No defensive skills. Only weapons skills can be increased. So, you pick a weapon skill, unlock open locks, and if you feel like role-playing, sneaking and pickpocket, which aren't essential as they aren't used to solve quests in different ways, IIRC. In other words, flavor stuff.

So, we have a system where you choose one stat and one weapon skill.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eClHj56wP88&NR=1
^ Gothic 2 unskilled fight against orc elite

... and stats changing your animations (that influence gameplay) was never done like in Gothic game
It's a nice visual feature, but it has nothing to do with the character system or gameplay.

Fighting system is good, you have to time your attacks right...
And it's a good thing why?

You need to explore to find weaker enemies that you can kill, how is that bad exploring...
Looking for something to kill so that you can finally level up and unlock a new sword isn't exploring. It's grinding.

Gothic introduces something much more interesting you have a gameworld where you have to plan on how to clean the world from monsters...
Really, Kraszu? Clean the world from monsters?
 

Kraszu

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Vault Dweller said:
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eClHj56wP88&NR=1
^ Gothic 2 unskilled fight against orc elite

Good luck with pulling that off.

Vault Dweller said:
It's a nice visual feature, but it has nothing to do with the character system or gameplay.

Sure it does because you fight different (you time things different), learning to fight better can be in some cases better then increasing STR faster, and worse in other cases.

Fighting system is good, you have to time your attacks right...

Vault Dweller said:
And it's a good thing why?

Because it adds gameplay to the fighting without forcing to memorize combos*, it is reactionary to what your opponent does, different enemies require different approach. What elements would make action rpg combat good to you?

*it is beyond me how people can consider learning to press some random combination of keys fast a good gameplay.

You need to explore to find weaker enemies that you can kill, how is that bad exploring...
Vault Dweller said:
Looking for something to kill so that you can finally level up and unlock a new sword isn't exploring. It's grinding.

You are neglecting on how it is done, the part that makes it good.

Gothic introduces something much more interesting you have a gameworld where you have to plan on how to clean the world from monsters...
Vault Dweller said:
Really, Kraszu? Clean the world from monsters?

That is putting my response out of context I had explained why I had found it good. Not everything is about an outcome.
 

SpaceKungFuMan

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Kraszu said:
Because it adds gameplay to the fighting without forcing to memorize combos*, it is reactionary to what your opponent does, different enemies require different approach. What elements would make action rpg combat good to you?

*it is beyond me how people can consider learning to press some random combination of keys fast a good gameplay.

You are assuming that an action RPG can have good combat. . .

IMO, if you're going to do action combat in an rpg, make it like diablo. Anything else trivializes stats, and in that case, why not just play an action game, which will actually have good action combat, instead of being "good for what it is" (which means its shit)?
 

Kraszu

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Vault Dweller said:
Doesn't have many stats? It has two: Strength and Dexterity. Pick one or the other. And it's important not because it has a strong effect on gameplay but because the weapons progression is tied to the matching stat. So, if you want to use a sword that doesn't suck, you have to increase Strength. There isn't much choice there.

Skills? One-handed, two-handed, bow, crossbow, open locks, pickpocket, sneaking, acrobatics. No defensive skills. Only weapons skills can be increased. So, you pick a weapon skill, unlock open locks, and if you feel like role-playing, sneaking and pickpocket, which aren't essential as they aren't used to solve quests in different ways, IIRC. In other words, flavor stuff.

Sneaking is very important in Gothic, and it isn't even even true that it is not needed for quests. Good luck with stealing something without it.

You had also forgotten about magic, and mana, Gothic games have some pretty fun spells.
 
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Awor Szurkrarz said:
Sceptic said:
Admiral jimbob said:
It's like Hubologists never happened
Maybe all the self-proclaimed Fallout fans who rage about how FNV destroyed their beloved franchise never actually played FO2 :smug:
You mean Fallout 2 where the future Obisdian guys started raping the Fallout setting? What the fuck is going on, do people get some kind of amnesia and forget what was discussed to death several years ago?

I dunno, man. Is it really even "rape of the setting" anymore ten years later, when you have like 6 games in the franchise?

Fallout
Fallout 2
Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel
Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel
Fallout 3
Fallout: New Vegas

It's dead, Jim. It's been dead for 10 years, you can't rape the dead. Like, fucking let go.
 

Kraszu

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SpaceKungFuMan said:
Kraszu said:
Because it adds gameplay to the fighting without forcing to memorize combos*, it is reactionary to what your opponent does, different enemies require different approach. What elements would make action rpg combat good to you?

*it is beyond me how people can consider learning to press some random combination of keys fast a good gameplay.

You are assuming that an action RPG can have good combat. . .

IMO, if you're going to do action combat in an rpg, make it like diablo. Anything else trivializes stats, and in that case, why not just play an action game, which will actually have good action combat, instead of being "good for what it is" (which means its shit)?

Every action game had elements that I disliked, also it gets boring when there is only fighting without any exploration, quests, and finding loot (not just stumbling upon one on your linear way, or finding it in some ridiculously hidden place). There are also scrolls that make things more interesting in Gothic.

Fighting in Gothic is much better then in "new" PoP games that I had played for platforming part.

How does Gothic like combat trivialize stats? You can hit and run in Diablo. In Gothic you can also see some enemies to be invincible when you can't input enough dmg. Heck even if you can kill something in theory with your stats improving them can still be important if it is being close to impossible to do so. In practice Gothic games don't play like stats were not important.
 
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Clockwork Knight said:
Awor Szurkrarz said:
Sceptic said:
Admiral jimbob said:
It's like Hubologists never happened
Maybe all the self-proclaimed Fallout fans who rage about how FNV destroyed their beloved franchise never actually played FO2 :smug:
You mean Fallout 2 where the future Obisdian guys started raping the Fallout setting? What the fuck is going on, do people get some kind of amnesia and forget what was discussed to death several years ago?

I dunno, man. Is it really even "rape of the setting" anymore ten years later, when you have like 6 games in the franchise?

Fallout
Fallout 2
Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel
Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel
Fallout 3
Fallout: New Vegas

It's dead, Jim. It's been dead for 10 years, you can't rape the dead. Like, fucking let go.
Yeah, it went down the slippery slope - starting with Fo2, rape rape rape and she's not even recognizable now.
To be honest, I don't care any more. To me only one Fallout exists.
 

MetalCraze

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Well Fallout 2 still plays exactly like a proper Fallout - just has a lot of stupidity in writing.

But after that - ya
 

SpaceKungFuMan

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Kraszu said:
SpaceKungFuMan said:
Kraszu said:
Because it adds gameplay to the fighting without forcing to memorize combos*, it is reactionary to what your opponent does, different enemies require different approach. What elements would make action rpg combat good to you?

*it is beyond me how people can consider learning to press some random combination of keys fast a good gameplay.

You are assuming that an action RPG can have good combat. . .

IMO, if you're going to do action combat in an rpg, make it like diablo. Anything else trivializes stats, and in that case, why not just play an action game, which will actually have good action combat, instead of being "good for what it is" (which means its shit)?

Every action game had elements that I disliked, also it gets boring when there is only fighting without any exploration, quests, and finding loot (not just stumbling upon one on your linear way, or finding it in some ridiculously hidden place). There are also scrolls that make things more interesting in Gothic.

Fighting in Gothic is much better then in "new" PoP games that I had played for platforming part.

How does Gothic like combat trivialize stats? You can hit and run in Diablo. In Gothic you can also see some enemies to be invincible when you can't input enough dmg. Heck even if you can kill something in theory with your stats improving them can still be important if it is being close to impossible to do so. In practice Gothic games don't play like stats were not important.

Hit and run in diablo is a path finding error. Combat in diablo obviously requires more player skill (of the twitch variety, not the planning variety) than a turn based or RTwP game, but the combat is still fundamentally stat resolved, which is why I see it as the cut off for how much action you can fit in your rpg before it stops being an rpg (Would anyone actually claim Divine Divinity isn't an RPG, for example?).

But we are getting way off topic here. Fallout 3 is shit, and saying its "good for what it is" or is a "good dungeon crawler/exploration game/hiking simulator" is like saying you went to the shit buffet, sampled all the shits, then decided to eat the type of shit that tastes the least horrible. In the end, you're still eating shit.
 

WalmartJesus

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SpaceKungFuMan said:
You are assuming that an action RPG can have good combat. . .

500x_ds.jpg




936full-mount-%26-blade-cover.jpg
 

SpaceKungFuMan

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WalmartJesus said:
SpaceKungFuMan said:
You are assuming that an action RPG can have good combat. . .

500x_ds.jpg




936full-mount-%26-blade-cover.jpg

You really want to call those RPGs? I never disputed that good action games can have good action combat, and can even have fun rpg like stat systems and equipment systems.
 

Radisshu

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Demon's Souls isn't a GOT DAMN RPG, it's just a very good action game.
 

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