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Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Destroid Arcane

    Destroid
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    You can always start the game in '39.
     
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  2. Space Satan Arcane

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    DD

    Hi everyone and welcome to another dev diary for Hearts of Iron IV. Today we are going to talk about peace conferences!

    HOI3's peace system was extremely simplistic and easy to exploit and did not really capture WWII and looking at our other games a peace system like Europa Universalis where a war leader dictates terms also does not really fit with WWII. So we set out to make something completely new!

    So how does it work? During a war your participation as a member in the war is tracked compared to the rest. Remember Mussolini’s famous quote when about to join the war against France and UK "I only need a few thousand dead so that I can sit at the peace conference as a man who has fought"? We actually track casualties now and that will also factor into your participation score. Most important however is actually conquering enemy territory.

    [​IMG]

    When the enemy finally surrenders the game initiates a peace conference. In multiplayer if there are several players involved this will pause the game and let everyone see what is decided in the conference even if you yourself is not in the war. Points representing the total value of things to grab among the losers is divvied out to the winners depending on what their war participation was at. Each country then takes turns deciding on what will happen to the losers. When you have less points than the person after you its their turn (you can also pass if you like) and on and on it goes until everyone has passed or run out of points. The losers have no say in this unless they have offered up a conditional surrender early on in which case they must approve the conference as well.

    The above means that we can now model historical decisions to make sense. For example, there is a reason for USA to get involved in both the pacific war and Europe and not let Stalin decide the outcome on his own there. Taking control of Germany and liberating France will be a race for Berlin and will color how Europe looks after the war ends. The idea is very much to give you the feeling of the Yalta conference where Stalin’s position was very strong and the other heads of governments had less say.

    [​IMG]

    The cost of different options depends on wargoals selected before the peace conference so anyone with justified reasons will be able to get those things cheaper, and it will be more costly for others to select those. Do note that order of participation still applies, so someone who has done more could still grab some of your war goal claims, but this would mean that they would themselves get to pick less over all. Stuff like that can set up things for post-war tension should players not be able to come to a resolution everyone is happy with. The basic type of action also affects costs of course, so liberating someone is cheaper than setting up a puppet government under your control, and annexing is much more costly than simply moving the borders some.

    The conference also indicates what kind of impact it will have on world tension in the end. This may be a reason to be more restrictive about your choices. Puppeting someone might keep you under a level where the Allies still can not go in and stop you while annexing them would push you over the tension limit.

    Next week we'll talk about the sleeping giant - USA!
     
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  3. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Swit jayzus, that's a lot more dead Frenchies than historically.

    Also, really nice-sounding peace mechanic.
     
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  4. GarfunkeL Racism Expert

    GarfunkeL
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    Yeah, that's actually a good development.

    Oh Pdox, why did you have to take my counters, generals and CoC away when everything else is shaping up to be really good?!
     
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  5. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    "The old system was too easy to exploit"

    "Here's a screenshot of Bulgaria demanding part of Poland"

    Like the idea, hopefully the AI doesn't make stupid shit. Taking land that doesn't border yours should be right out.

    This is a system that would be far more important in a game like EU4, hopefully they are thinking about backporting the feature.
     
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  6. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Too bad England didn't knew that while taking Gibraltar. Or Prussia owning disconnected patches of turf all over the HRE. I don't even mention thirdworldian possessions.
     
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  7. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    They probably should limit non-overseas demands based on geographical proximity and cores, and give pecking order based on that too so Bulgaria or Italy doesn't show up to divide Poland. The idea that demands are made in order based on contribution is pretty good and should create at least some kind of logical order to things. Could be just the pecking order takes care of this sort of stuff (with Germany demanding everything in Poland except Slovakian, Hungarian, and new Soviet cores)
     
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  8. Space Satan Arcane

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    Any mechanics will inevitably play against the possability of land invasion into USA mainland. Joint German and Jap landing and victory will be useless if all they can demand is puppet regime or stuff, without partition or annexation due to range malus.
     
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  9. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    That's quite a bit different from Bulgaria having a completely land locked and disconnected part of Poland. Gibraltar is a useful port and at least Prussia's HRE holdings were Germanic. Plus we're talking about what the AI should be limited to in order to not have illogical shit happen like Bulgaria blocking off Germany from reaching the Soviets.
     
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  10. mondblut Arcane

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    It's not about what AI should be limited to - maybe the bulgarian king has some childhood memories associated with a tiny mining town of Yòbkúrwă and wants to own it, who are you to judge him? It's about Germany having a say in it, "are you out of your ficken mind, kleine bruder? you want to bekome die protektorate der Frakia und Danubia, or something? Now run along, ally, and do not make me angry again". To which the AI would respond with either okayface.jpg, or "fuck you krauts, imma joining allies nao". Basically, the way it was done in EU4 was functional enough. The war leader got to distribute the spoils, and if an ally didn't receive something it occupied or had a claim over, it seriously damaged their relations.
     
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  11. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    The concept of a "war leader" is highly dubious, especially in cases where other parties are performing the majority of the work (which is what this system is tracking).

    Also who has ever seriously cared about damaging relations in EU4?
     
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  12. mondblut Arcane

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    Well, introducing an entire new system for the singular occasion of "Hitler's dead, where is mah cold war dlc" seems wasteful. And on the other side of the fence, the "war leader" is pretty clear :smug: At best, it's about how exactly are Germany and the japs dividing USA or pacific colonies. Regardless of "limiting the AI", the outcome would be ugly.

    The problem in EU4 is that you always have more potential allies than diplomacy mana, so unless you're grooming them for vassalization, you don't care about keeping an ally around when you can replace him with another one immediately.

    Then again, in HoI annexing the eastern europe is much more useful than larping history and keeping those useless turds as your "allies". Even as neutrals they are more useful; at least the enemy can't cross their territory. One time I made the mistake of inviting Turkeys into Axis; by the end of the month the brits were pouring into balkans and bombed me from the newly annexed Istanbul airfields. Never again :smug:
     
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  13. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Yes, this is why I think the system would be better in an EU4 (or V2/3). In a WW2 game its probably going to be pretty clear which country wears the pants in the relationship, with Germany/Japan being the only nations which could readily take anything more than a token amount of land. In EU4 you can play as Navarre and have France give you half of Spain for the price of having your diplomat there for a year to get them to like you.

    Yes well mana is an unfixable abomination that ruins everything it touches. No arguments here.
     
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  14. GarfunkeL Racism Expert

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    I sincerely hope that the screenshot is just a mock-up, as it conflicts with the text in the DD. If Germany conquers all of Poland, then her allies have no say. Only chance for Bulgaria to demand something of Poland would be some weird case where the Bulgarian army actually takes over some Polish lands - the DD said that occupying lands is more important than causing casualties.

    This should also fix the post-WW2 clusterfuck that usually happens in all HoI games.
     
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  15. mondblut Arcane

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    All the more reason not to bother with allies then. Fucking Romania occupying half the vatnikstan because you've been invading from their turf was bad enough in the previous iterations.

    Post-WW2 in HoI? What are you talking about?

    Srsly, I wish there would be a way to disband Axis after the Allies and the Cumintern are where they belong to, then rip the remnants of the world from the japs' and the macaronis' cold dead hands, and rename Earth to Germania (then launch V-4s beyond Solar System and begin a World War 3 to seek moar lebensraum at the expense of extraterrestrial civilizations). Alas, filthy libruls at PDX refuse to consider this kind of cold war. :negative:
     
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  16. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    The peace conference in the screenshot seems like a really big experiment with the system. The year isn't shown, but its clearly the final negotiations of a major war, given how French casualties are over two million and Italy's nearly a million. Poland is just one thing being negotated, Germany's also making demands in France.

    I hope this doesn't mean there won't be a separate peace treaties within the larger war, since that's pretty important for things like Poland and Finland.

    EDIT: They've confirmed dynamic factions for the game mondblut, so I'd assume it should be possible to kick members out of alliances without events or decisions like in HoI2 unlike in HoI3.

    The whole point of the system I think is to set-up the game so it can support a Cold War expansion. Where else are they gonna go (HoI3 style fleshing out of aspects of the game aside)? WW1? That conflicts with Victoria's timeframe, and you know they are going to want a clean Victoria 3 pre-order situation for EU4 and HoI4 converter DLCs.
     
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  17. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Were they ever? Previous HOI were governments in exile galore (which TBH was fairly historical), with the few exceptions like Vichy or Finland being handled by special events and decisions.

    When are they getting to the disgusting whack-a-partisan-army minigame? :/
     
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  18. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    In regards to whack-a-partisan, I do hope they put more work into governments-in-exile organizing and preparing partisan groups. I'd prefer that actual fought-on-the-field rebels would go Home Army style so the uprising is dynamic and opportunist rather than random.

    Regular random partisans themselves shouldn't be whacked, just have an extensive number of events where you have to deal with the bullshit they've served you in province X.

    They tried to go this direction in HoI3, but ultimately I've *never* seen a government-in-exile use the feature added, and I never felt particularly interested to try since the system would have just been sitting on your ass for years and building endlessly more units before pressing da button.
     
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  19. Spectacle Arcane Patron

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    Look at the screenshot, Bulgaria's part of Poland is on the baltic shore. They're going to have some challenges there to be sure, but better than coming home empty handed from the peace conference.
     
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  20. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Unless I am misinformed and Latvia/Lithuania were in fact underwater countries during WW2, that Bulgarian land has zero shoreline.
     
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  21. Lone Wolf Arcane

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    That probably stands for either 'casualties' or 'permanent losses'. The former would include all combat losses, including WIA/MIA/KIA/POW. The latter would include those too injured to return to service, KIA, POW and MIA.

    What I find funny is that WW2 is called 'the German-Polish War', according to the game.
     
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  22. Space Satan Arcane

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    Radical Yugoslavia, Legionary Romania, it seems Paradox tries to fight with the usual problem of HoI series - hindsight and meta. I suppose in HoIIV main goal is to randomize political situation until big showdown so no more preset DOWs and stuff and lots of unexpected alliances and country ideology shifts. Like HJapan in comintern, France in Axis etc. before, it was impossible to lose winter war or other predefined conflicts because you knew what to do, what AI will do and what to research best. Should they make this work, HoIIV have a chance.
     
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  23. darkpatriot Arcane

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    One thing I hope that is improved is defining more areas for annexation. Preferably every province being in at least 1 defined annexation area. For HOI3 not every province was in one, only some of them were. Most of the areas that were defined were where the conflict was and where countries in real life were interested in annexing. But if you go off rails (with a supercharged minor for example) or try to expand in areas where there wasn't really fighting during WW2 you wind up wanting to annex areas that have no defined annexation wargoal, so you can only get them if you do a total annexation.

    Many of the colonies of the British empire could not be separately annexed for example. A player may well want to take some British colonial possessions while not wanting to annex all of the UK (which may be pretty far from their territory), but a lot of British colonies couldn't be annexed as a war goal. You had to annex all of Britain to get them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
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  24. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    I would guess they're going to have the goals defined by the province->state->country structure they use nowadays.
     
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  25. Trash Pointing and laughing.

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    Wait, no generals? Seriously?
     
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