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Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    The political system was changed so that there are now four distinct ideological leanings in the world stage (democratic, fascist, communist, and neutral), and the number of parties I guess reflects that.
     
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  2. a Goat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

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    Oh shit, why.
     
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  3. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Well, since political ideology now has more functions than just a vague effect on what ministers you can choose and dictatorship/democracy division. One important feature that's in is that democracies may have to form coalition governments with fascists or communists, and the CK2/EU:R style civil war system.

    And really, the large number of parties in HoI3 didn't serve any other purpose than to limit the minister pool and muddy the water (really, did the other two socialist parties serve any purpose whatsoever other than to be historical namedrops?), especially given how in most cases the initial or second ruling party would rule forever and the government type which determined the accepted minister pool was almost impossible to change from the inside. Not to mention the system was rather weird, given how America First Committee was treated as a party, and at that one that would have made it EASIER to go to war. By contrast, democracies having the interventionist vs isolationist paradigm from Democracy and Neutral ideologies will do considerably better in reflecting reality and providing actually meaningful mechanics, and Neutral (since the way it sounds like it is not linked to government form, just minding your own business) also enables for isolationist dictatorships of both stripes which is very good as well.

    EDIT: Another good example of how rather dumb the old party system was how German-American Bund was also a US Party, when really the only fascist party needed would have been Silver Legion of America. A similar case would be in Finland with only IKL being necessary, since Lapua Movement had de facto ended by the game's timeframe and Sinimustat was a minor youth organization with links to IKL and Lapua Movement before it was banned and reorganized as IKL's own youth organization.
     
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  4. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    No fuel in a fucking WW2 game really smacks of a "the AI can't handle it so instead of fix the AI we dumbed the game down" philosophy. Their "fix" of stopping production when you lose control of a resource is silly. Japan didn't attack the Allies because they wanted to be able to have 4 carriers in the production queue rather than 2, they attacked because their thousands of ships would be 100% useless in a few months due to the oil embargo if that didn't.

    Yeah, the 4 party thing has been known for a while. It's dumbing down but I can take that in a WW2 game. The HoI3 system had tons of weirdness (like, the UK can invest in espionage to sponsor a democratic coup in Japan in 1936, but the USA and France can't. Why? UK is Social Conservative while France and USA are both Social Liberal). It's a distinction that makes sense in a Victoria 3 game, not a HoI4 game.
     
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  5. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    I could hardly call it dumbing down when it actually creates a new system that does something. The HoI3 system WAS dumber than a pile of bricks and had next to no mechanical value, what they promise here is NOT dumbed down (because there is nothing to dumb down) and actually promises to matter in the game.

    As for fuel, the fuel system in HoI3 was a pointless addition that only added a second layer to Oil that served no purpose whatsoever. And the new system DOES still require fuel for your dudes, because supplies are now handled through specific goods, meaning tank supplies need tank production, which in turn requires oil. In that sense it's a more elegant system I'd say, since it actually needs you do something with the oil produced (since fuel in HoI3 was essentially completely the same as oil, being purely an unnecessary extra step). So in the new system, Japan's fleet should in theory require supplies that require oil to be produced.
     
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  6. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Yeah I was referring specifically to the less number of parties, not the general system.

    Japan is going to be producing ships, right? If Japan is producing ships then clearly they have a net-positive oilflow, which means that they won't have oil problems for supplying units. Extra oil only allows them to produce ships faster. This is doubly so considering that stockpiles are out, if Japan was actually running an oil-deficit then Japan players would be starting in 1936 by deleting 3/4ths of their fleet.

    Oil/Fuel split did serve a purpose, since you could only convert x oil into fuel depending on your IC, and capturing oil supplies didn't immediately give you tons of fuel. It was simply badly balanced and too easy to manage for players because Paradox had to give extra fuel to offset how bad the AI was at managing it.
     
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  7. Space Satan Arcane

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    It's a tradeoff for hindsight, when in HoI3 players hoarded amount of fuel enough to last for entire war.
     
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  8. GarfunkeL Racism Expert

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    I don't mind that oil-fuel is merged into one but that it's amalgamated into replacements is abhorrent. Because a tank certainly used more than one tank of gas during its life time. And lack of fuel was a massive handicap in WW2. Maybe they will make the generic supplies to require oil but that's a bit ham-fisted too.
     
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  9. Spectacle Arcane Patron

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    As I understand the system, not having the required inputs for a factory just means reduced production efficiency, so Japan will be able to keep their fleet running fine without oil if they just allocate enough factories to it.

    I would bet that running factories at low efficiency is a lot cheaper in the long run than going to war with the US to secure oil supplies....
     
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  10. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how it works in practise, but hypothetically based on hype it should provide a basis for a system that can be modified to higher flexibility (assuming you can finetune what kind of things are needed for supplying stuff, which in theory could be used to mod in fuel factories if one wants more supply production complexity) and dodge the whole AI-is-a-dipshit problem.
     
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  11. Irenaeus II Unwanted Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    Good post.
     
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  12. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    As I said, this is only a problem because the AI was so bad that Paradox had to give the Axis 10x as much fuel as they should have. AI's literally consumed an order of magnitude more fuel randomly driving tanks in circles like idiots, you can put your carefully managed east front on AI control and watch your fuel reserves plummet.

    There is no hindsight factor in HoI3. "Hoarding" fuel, in terms of buying fuel from the Allies before war, was insanely, massively expensive, and the only way to get a decent amount of it was to sell the Allies huge stockpiles of supplies (which then effectively gave them your IC since you are producing supplies for them), so its not like something that you magically got for free because you knew ahead of time "I'll need fuel for war". HoI3's problem was purely that Germany produced tons more oil than they should have and that careful micromanagement of units ensured that you used almost nothing (keep in mind that strategic redeployment used no fuel and units sitting still also used no fuel, so tanks effectively only needed fuel when in the middle of battle).
     
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  13. Irenaeus II Unwanted Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    Never really played a HoI game, this will be my first*. Anything I should know aside from history of the period (which I already know)?

    * I'm familiar with most Paradox strategy games and their mods btw, just never played much HoI beyond checking out the interface a bit.
     
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  14. Random Word Arbiter Patron

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    As I understand it all replacement parts for motorized units of any kind require Oil, and units require replacement parts even when idle. They require parts at a much greater rate when in battle or training. This means tanks now do consume oil while at rest and when strat redeploying, and that Japan's navy will fall apart, losing organization and strength without access to sufficient oil to support them.

    Have I misunderstood?
     
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  15. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    I guess the big question that remains unanswered is what are the naval supply items (since somehow I doubt the game expects you to build another carrier for supplying a carrier), and if there are other supply items for group troops besides the (ie) tanks themselves. That's the basic outline of the system, but it hasn't been detailed much outside of the new way supplies are shipped and distributed.
     
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  16. GarfunkeL Racism Expert

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    There is generic "small arms" and then there's generic "supplies". I don't know if there is generic "spare parts" required for tanks and trucks and planes and ships. If there is and producing those consumes oil and moto-mechanized units consume them 24/7, then the system might work. If not, then it'll mean that Rommel will drive to Baghdad in 1941 and that's that.
     
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  17. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    It's unclear. It seems to be what Paradox is describing, but if it actually works like that then there are massive holes in the system as I pointed out earlier (ideal Japan strategy being to scrap most of their fleet in 1936). If not then there is essentially no oil constraint on supplying units.

    As for Germany, similarly as it is for what I describe as Japan. If units always consume oil, and there is no oil stockpile, then there's no reason to build the excess tanks like Germany did that they eventually couldn't supply due to stockpile shortfalls. Instead, simply build up to what your constant stream of oil supports, then never worry about building new units or running out of supply.

    Assuming you're talking about HoI3, just jump right in. The game IS complex in many ways but pretty easy to grasp if you just play it and automate the parts you aren't ready to understand yet, learning it all a piece at a time.

    If you're talking about HoI4, give me your beta code :lol:
     
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  18. Irenaeus II Unwanted Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    I have HoI3 with all expansions (not all dlcs) but can't be arsed to play it with HoI4 around the corner... Just wanted to know if I can attack the US, the UK or the USSR as Brazil to achieve immortal glory or die trying.

    [​IMG]

    lol if Japan did that in real life they would lose all their colonies and the war with China. Basically going back to feudal age.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Well, in THEORY... But HoI3 doesn't like it if you try exiting the rails, one consequence of which is that Brazil is given fuck-all to do that sort of stuff with. This tends to mean that Brazil is one of those countries generally used as suggestions for L2P campaigns where you just figure out how things work and such because you have no enemies and after a few hours you'll be able to invade a weaker neighbour. Another thing is that you'd spend most of the game waiting for Neutrality and Threat to finally collide.

    HoI3 is about the war in Europe (and to a lesser extent in Asia, but that's generally only a thing if you're playing as Japan yourself since AI Japan is generally useless due to being unable to really handle that sort of war), everything else is not really a concern. And I do emphasize it's about *war* in Europe, and it handles that exceptionally well (it's got hands down the best combat mechanics Pdox has made so far).
     
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  20. Irenaeus II Unwanted Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    Not even an expeditionary force? :(

    I think Brazil has no ships, no planes, no tanks, no industry, right? #LMAO

    Just these little fellas

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Brazil has a little bit higher than average industry and manpower IIRC (which is still about the same as fuck-all since average is generally the same as one-quarter of Italy's base IC and Italy's base IC is puny). Expeditionary forces from the rest of the world later on when everyone has joined Allies are generally unacceptably low quality meatshields, if even that. The real problem though is not IC (since you can just get lend-lease from alliance's major and spend next three years spending it and half your normal IC building more IC and then auto-trading supplies for resources from aforementioned alliance's major since around 80% of the world's resources are in Kwa, Germany and USSR, and resource situation is immutable without modding), the real problem is Leadership. AKA the stuff you use to make NCOs *and* research *and* diplomacy *and* espionage. One of the early patches actually gave minors (read: Everyone except UK, Kwa, USSR, Germany, and sort of Japan, France and Italy) acceptable base level of Leadership, but ever since then the value has been so catastrophically low it's completely pointless to play as minors in unmodded HoI3. Like aforementioned resources, it's another example of the game having no way to make more of something, and majority of it going permanently to Germany (seriously, Germany has such vast quantities of Leadership that the only reason they won't have a Carrier superfleet is if the player doesn't feel like it).

    Also that black guy in the middle looks familiar: [​IMG]

    Bet he's going to give his spicy meat a good rub too.
     
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  22. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Brazil has manpower to muster around 30 divisions, maybe a bit more by the time war breaks out. Pretty damn good, keep in mind that US forces in europe only numbered about 60. Yes it's still low but HoI3 is made with the assumption that nations outside Europe aren't mobilizing to fight to the death against an invader like Europeans are, so their manpower reflects that. Leadership isn't a problem. C&C regarding what you focus on is a good thing.

    Checking the fleet/air force Brazil starts with 2 battleships, 2 light cruisers, a bunch of transports and an interceptor wing. Not too shabby, might be able to get into a scrap with Italy and come out ahead.

    In any case just play Germany for your first game. Don't let the fact that it seems overwhelming get to you. Turn on AI control for your units if you want a massive confidence boost by seeing how poorly the AI fights.
     
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  23. Irenaeus II Unwanted Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    Yeah, he's a local meme

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. Space Satan Arcane

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    I suppose oil supply would be fluctuating violently due to strategic bombardment. It seems that players now must put MUCH more effort in protecting their oil regions.
     
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  25. Grinolf Cipher

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