Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Hitman 2016 released on GOG with online-only features, gets review-bombed - now delisted

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by ferratilis, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    33,465
    I use Steam because it werks.
    There isn't some big conspiracy to it, I press a button and receive a game.
     
    • Agree x 5
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Prestigious x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • sheeple x 1
    • Math! x 1
    • M: x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    33,465
    This is even worse than they pretended. :lol:
     
    • Yes Yes x 3
    • popamole popamole x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,249
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    Yeah, that is the short term convenience i referred to previously.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    33,465
    The way you view DRM is how I view nonfree software. GOG and Steam both distribute nonfree software therefore I simply choose the one that supports my platform and is easier to use for various reasons.
    Want to preserve software? Fine, get the developers to release it as free software. Doom, one of the most successful games series ever made, did it -- the worst they can say is that it contributed to the series' overall popularity thanks to helping the "modding"/fan community. Arx Fatalis has a well maintained community edition thanks to its source being released as free software. Siege of Avalon received an updated re-release on modern platforms/storefronts earlier this year thanks to fan work due to it being released as free software. So on and so forth.

    On the topic of GOG -- what has GOG preserved that wasn't already preserved in the same state? Basically every old game they're selling was already floating around as abandonware. They simply wrapped it up in a zip file with dosbox and/or the latest fan patches.
    I know for a fact that they have made many games much harder to find despite not even selling it themselves(e.g., Buck Rogers Gold Box games have been removed from popular abandonware sites.) And thanks to GOG shipping games with fan patches, it's sometimes difficult to find unpatched versions of certain games at all.

    So, exactly what does GOG do? Do they employ a developer to help work on DOSBox which they distribute with a massive portion of their games? Valve employs quite a few developers who work on free software projects such as the linux kernel, wine, graphics drivers, and so forth.
    Does GOG employ a developer to work on third-party patches to help fix longstanding bugs in games that remain unaddressed? This is something I'd definitely consider when deciding what platform to buy from. But I've only ever seen their games distributed with patches made by fans.
    Do they attempt to negotiate releasing the source code and/or assets for games that have long since been out of circulation? They're one of the few companies in a position to do such a thing.

    As far as I can tell, people like Wesp5(notably VTMB, but quite a few games) and Sitra Achara(ToEE Temple+) have done more than GOG has, I might as well pirate the games and donate the money I'd have spent on GOG to them.
     
    • Brofist x 7
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • FAKE NEWS x 1
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    • Makes you think... x 1
    • Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,249
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    While both GOG and Steam distribute nonfree software (for the others reading this, rusty refers to Free Software as defined by the Free Software Foundation where "Free" is about freedom, not price), DRM adds additional restrictions on top to not having the source code available. Free software at its core is all about giving as much control as possible to the end user, both from a practical (having the source code) and legal perspective (via free software licenses) (there is more to that, e.g. via copyleft -this is a pun on copyright, not about the political left- but the essence is that). So DRM-free games have less restrictions here.

    I fully agree with that, in general there isn't much of a practical issue for games to not have source code, aside from middleware licensing. Unlike productivity, office and other types of "non-entertainment" software, games are generally "done" after release - patches, etc aside. Games that rely on online features, like MMOs, are an exception but even those are largely about the infrastructure than about the client software itself. A common given reason is to avoid cheating, but that is essentially security through obscurity instead of properly secure code - and even in that case, one could simply use slightly different executables for the "official" vs "source code" versions. The official wont be exactly Free Software but people who care about it can still use the alternative version (this is what the Cube engine games did actually and those were developed as FLOSS from the beginning).

    They make the games playable out of the box - or at least they used to at the past. Also they ensure you get a proper copy - abandonware sites often use files that were floating around since the 90s (especially for older games) and those files are sometimes modified or have parts removed to delete

    Eh now, it is incredibly trivial to find those games. Buck rogers even appears on the first page of Google results (yes i tested the download).

    Yes this is sadly true, especially if you want to try and play the game on period accurate hardware. Advent Rising is such an example where they have the fan patch preinstalled - though since you do the download manually and aren't forced to update it, i simply kept my older version without the fan patch. Tough luck for people who buy the game nowadays though. You might get an older version of a game if you contact support (i've seen some people saying that in the GOG forums at the past) but never tried it myself.

    And that is great, which is why my plan for my next PC is to install Linux and use DRM-free games from GOG, Zoom, etc via wine/proton on an AMD GPU (which has open source drivers).
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • Participation Award Participation Award x 1
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Glop_dweller Cipher

    Glop_dweller
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    600
    I never use Steam directly. Occasionally I will get Steam Keys from Humble Bundle, but normally I don't give them my business.

    I remember buying Vampire:Bloodlines from them, and ... it didn't work. I filed a support ticket, and two weeks later I recieved boilerplate technical help that instructed me to permanently disable half of my installed RAM if I wished to play the game; they were serious... imbecilic. No way in hell.

    So I looked online, and found some (sadly mystery-hacked) exe for the game, and in four minutes I was playing Vampire:Bloodlines just fine, and was able to complete the game. Steam sucks dogshit, and it's nanny-ware.

    GoG... what can I say. I bought Witcher 2 and it didn't work; crashed, and crashed. I filed a support ticket. I was contacted immediately. They eventually sent me a recompiled version of the game exe, with .Net removed; I didn't care about the ladder system anyway. Then the game worked fine, and I was able to play it-----for as long as I could stand it anyway. :(

    I tend to only buy from GoG at this point; them or direct from the developer, if I have the option.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    ^ Top  
  7. Azdul Augur

    Azdul
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    460
    In the past GOG had put some work into older games:

    1. Early Windows games (like various Star Wars titles) will not run on modern OS at all without GOG DirectX wrapper. Nowadays we have open source alternative - cnc-ddraw, but it became functional very recently.

    2. They do help DosBox and ScummVM teams - by testing the games, reporting bugs, and running affiliate programs on their sites. DosBox bug that affected RoA: Blade of Destiny final battle was fixed due to GOG efforts. It is also one of the very few publishers that ScummVM team is happy about.

    3. Their versions (esp. non-English ones) tend to be more complete and updated when compared to abadonware sites. From my experience - sometimes three abadonware sites offer three different versions of the game - and all of them having different checksums, and none of them fit the checksum that open source engine expects.

    I agree that in some cases GOG has done poor job - and it should open market opportunity for competition.

    I would love to see another store like Zoom, itch.io, or even Steam to seize that market opportunity by offering PC / Amiga games from early 90s: Dungeon Master, Centurion, Colorado, Rome AD 92, Amberstar, Perihellion, Heimdall, Turrican, Targhan, North & South - or just by offering superior versions of classic games to GOG ones.

    So far I've found one positive example - Wolfpack (1990) is sold on Zoom. Steam is still happy to sell broken classic games. Small itch.io team is probably too busy with 100 new Anime Waifu indie releases each week to care about classics.
     
    • Despair Despair x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. samuraigaiden Cipher

    samuraigaiden
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,489
    RPG Wokedex
    Warhammer 40k Chaos Gate? There actually might be a couple of other post Dos/pre XP era games that GOG had to get fixed themselves to be able to sell.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Syl Cipher

    Syl
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    606
    GOG is a commercial venture, their contribution to game preservation has been mostly on the legal side, to be able to sell the games. I'm pretty sure, in some cases, that gave them access to source code to fix things that modders/crackers couldn't.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. racofer Thread Incliner

    racofer
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    22,469
    Location:
    Your ignore list.
    Hey look, some faggot already split the thread. Can't have people saying bad stuff about GOG.
     
    • thumbs down x 2
    • honk honk! x 2
    • Rage x 1
    • Makes you think... x 1
    • "It was Aliens" x 1
    • Disgusting! x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    33,465
    comments that have nothing to do with Hitman got moved
    Infinitron
    fix this
     
    ^ Top  
  12. OldSkoolKamikaze Arcane Patron

    OldSkoolKamikaze
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    6,838
    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Are you aware that GOG Galaxy still isn't available on Linux? That tells you a lot about GOG.
     
    • incline incline x 1
    • decline decline x 1
    • Makes you think... Makes you think... x 1
    • honk honk! honk honk! x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,249
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    I do not care at all TBH, i only used GOG Galaxy once to download Cyberpunk 2077 because CDPR took their sweet time to make offline downloads and then uninstalled it. If anything i wouldn't mind at all if GOG decides to completely abandon GOG Galaxy as some of the site neglect they had over recent years started with their focus on GOG Galaxy.

    In fact i do not care at all about any clients, i'd rather download installers directly from a web site.
     
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. OldSkoolKamikaze Arcane Patron

    OldSkoolKamikaze
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    6,838
    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    If you do plan on switching to Linux be aware that for most (all?) games there's no patching. You have to re-download the entire game every time there's a new update.

    GOG can't even port their client to Linux. Compare that to Valve who created Proton, submitted kernel patches, worked with hardware and anti-cheat vendors, etc. I know who is getting my money.
     
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • decline decline x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    28,072
    Location:
    KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
    But Steam doesn't inherently have DRM in it. There are plenty of indie games on Steam (which are so niche and low production value that GoG would reject them instantly) where I can just copypaste the install folder onto a different PC, double click the exe, and it works.

    Adding DRM to a Steam game is entirely up to the developer, and not a necessary part of the platform itself.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,249
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    Personally i prefer to redownload the entire game anyway as patches are a waste of disk space. It takes a bit more time but i can leave the download at the background, it isn't like i'm transferring the bytes by hand :-P

    As i wrote, i use offline installers, this is something i'm already doing for years now, using Linux wont make a difference at all here.

    Not all games on Steam have DRM but an overwhelming majority does to the point where you might as well consider it the default, unless otherwise confirmed. Also focusing on the word "DRM" is IMO missing the point, the reason people dislike DRM is that because it takes control away from the user in how, where and when they can play their games, but it isn't only DRM that does that - for example technically Steamworks isn't DRM but it can restrict (intentionally or not) that sort of control. Similarly with online games that only work through a centralized developer/publisher provided server (regardless of if just to make P2P connections or the developer/publisher provides dedicated servers) - it can provide a lot of useful functionality, but at the same time it isn't strictly necessary and can be used to restrict the control users have over their games.

    Focusing on what is or isn't DRM is IMO a waste of time, the important aspect is the reason people dislike DRM (loss of control) which doesn't apply only to whatever passes or not some arbitrary definition of DRM (which isn't even really a term users/consumers came up with). And this is also the root of why GOG claiming Hitman is DRM-free is pointless, as it isn't the DRM or not that is the issue but the consequences in terms of controlling where, when and how you play the game you bought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. racofer Thread Incliner

    racofer
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    22,469
    Location:
    Your ignore list.
    I guess insistence is futile indeed.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disgusting! Disgusting! x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. cretin Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Douchebag! Possibly Retarded Edgy

    cretin
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Messages:
    765
    Piracy isnt a solution in this case, AFAIK the pirated versions have the same problem because almost all of the content requires being online.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • PIRACY IS WRONG PIRACY IS WRONG x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    28,072
    Location:
    KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
    IIRC the pirated versions just let you play the missions normally, no unlocks, no mastery, none of that stuff that's an intended part of the experience. Nobody managed to port that over to offline mode yet.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    28,072
    Location:
    KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
    The games that don't use DRM can easily be copypasted to another PC and played there, though. And Steamworks' own DRM can easily be cracked by replacing a .dll with a cracked one. Simple.

    Just because Steam uses a launcher doesn't mean all of its games are bound to it. Those DRM-free indies can be played just by double-clicking the .exe in the install folder. In fact, that's even the preferred way of running some 90s and 00s games on Steam because they need third party fan patches to run on a modern system (Win 7 and upwards). If you really dislike the launcher, you can just use it as a downloader and then launch all the games from their exes.

    Steam's greatest advantage is its open approach to publishing. Anyone can publish, which on the one hand means a lot of trash gets released, but on the other hand you get plenty of one man indie treasures that wouldn't be accepted by a curated store like GoG. Most of those games also choose to be completely DRM-free and you can launch them however you want, independently of the launcher.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  21. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,249
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    Well, that is the case with any game without DRM, not only on Steam - it is one of the reasons to not like DRM :-P.

    What you refer to is Steam's API, which isn't DRM - nor is even illegal (if you care about that) to replace it with a so-called emulator (in fact it is as legal as Valve's own Proton).

    Steam does provide DRM and in fact not only one but four variations (last time i checked at least), the oldest of which is actually a PITA to remove since it was done per-game. Later variations are automated, though the first automated one is a bit different than the later and i haven't found an open source unpacker. But they tend to be as simple as dropping an executable through an unpacker and having it work.

    But the simplicity is really beside the point, even a simple toothless DRM is still DRM that takes control away from the user - that you can attempt yourself to take it back is irrelevant to what a store offers and what expectations you can have from the store. In practice many Steam releases do have DRM and sometimes even removing Steam's own DRM still has the games not working, so the expectation is and should be (otherwise you are deluding yourself and misleading others) that there is DRM in a game unless you or someone else has explicitly tested that game (and that game version - sometimes games get additional DRM after the initial version, it doesn't happen often but it does happen) and found out that there isn't any (or that it is trivial to remove it).

    Sure but these are all beside the point i am making here, you can work around most problems and even download and install cracks if you want (even find versions with Denuvo disabled), the point is that these shouldn't be there in the first place and i shouldn't have to go looking for cracks, emulators and whatnot before buying some game - i should be able to go to a store's site, buy it, download the game installer and install it on any PC i own without any further meddling from the store, the developer or the publisher.

    Steam is a latecomer to that open approach and indie friendliness, other stores existed and exist aside from it, like itch.io which contains way more games than Steam. Steam's greatest advantage is that it is widely popular and has set itself as the de-facto store for PC games, so it has the biggest audience by far.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. racofer Thread Incliner

    racofer
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    22,469
    Location:
    Your ignore list.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2021
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. lycanwarrior Educated

    lycanwarrior
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2021
    Messages:
    211
    Unfortunately, this was bound to happen once high-speed Internet became affordable and ubiquitous. Not to mention the death of physical copies (especially on PC).

    Even for some physical copies of games that I own, they won't install due to the damn SecureRom crap (original Crysis for example).
     
    ^ Top  
  24. cretin Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Douchebag! Possibly Retarded Edgy

    cretin
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Messages:
    765
    Did anyone buy this from GOG?

    Does being online require some sort of verification of your purchase? Because if not I'm just going to acquire the gog installer. I don't really care about having to be online to play, I just don't want to pay a fucking dime for it.
     
    • cuck cuck x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. rohand Arbiter

    rohand
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    584
    Location:
    Planet Escape
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.