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How to Write the Perfect Villain

santino27

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
2,678
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
A tragic victim of double translation: "Ich glaube, der effektivste Weg, einen Schurken zu erschaffen, den man wirklich besiegen will, ist ihn dem Spieler im Lauf des Gameplay etwas Negatives antun zu lassen - oder den Gefährten, bei denen es die Autoren geschafft haben, dass er sie liebt."
What a sentence. :salute:

I think it's the villain doing something negative, either to the player-character(s) or to the companions, whom the player loves. Possibly. :M

Much appreciated! I figured it was something like this, but man, that sentence got murdered in translation. :D
 

wyes gull

Savant
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
424
All a good villain needs is some pussy to grab.

dr-claw-cat.gif
 

Cosmo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,387
Project: Eternity
gtBPZKh.jpg


"Forgive me. 'Tis your birth and faith that wrong you, not I."

Not a villain in the traditional sense, I guess, but I wouldn't mind more characters like him in general.

Somehow you also get the sense that there is a second, "phantom" game where this guy gradually manages to conquer power...
 
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bminorkey

Guest
The villains of Enderal actually check all these boxes and I thought they were fairly well-written despite their cliche premise. So maybe there's truth to the formula.
 

bminorkey

Guest
I think you (the PC) should never be allowed to completely triumph over a good villain, especially at the very end. The villain should always take something away, accomplish something, even if they don't completely achieve their goals. It's the only way to make the player think back on the villain.

This basically *never* happens in big releases because the devs feel they must empower the players or their games won't sell.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
gtBPZKh.jpg


"Forgive me. 'Tis your birth and faith that wrong you, not I."

Not a villain in the traditional sense, I guess, but I wouldn't mind more characters like him in general.

I wouldn't even call him an antagonist. Beyond his background and motivations for the crown, he's one of the most historical I've seen in a game, and he's in a JPRG at that).

How things panned out for him annoyed me, just meant more chaos and death until the baby heir came of age.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
Irenicus

Has changed the world? For a wizard of his power, Irenicus didn't do much to change the world. He failed to become a god, killed a bunch of Cowled Wizards, and attacked an elven city but not successfully.
Did terrible shit to the player? Yes, he tortured the player and stole the player's birth right.
Is a product of his world? Not exactly. While his personal tragedy led him to pursue the player character, his original desire to become a god doesn't fit the typical elven wizard background and he seems quite eccentric.
Is a dark reflection of the hero? Yes, like Sarevok, he reflects the player's evil, power hungry side, especially since the player is destined to become a god.
Deserves to win? Not exactly. He was powerful, but failed to make full use of his power. It's not explained why he allows the player to live after he took his soul.

I don't think he's right about Irenicus. He... doesn't really fit the game and setting, I feel, showing BioWare quickly getting tired of traditional "heroic" fantasy. Irenicus sort of acts in a different paradigm. Hard to believe him existing in a world with Anomen or Minsc or even traditional evil guys like liches. He'd fit a dark fantasy world like Witcher or even Dragon Age much more. So he's not only not a product of the world, he feels disconnected from the world and the hero. He's not a dark reflection, he's just different.

When you present villains like that I'd find Thaos to be the most interesting one if I hadn't played those games before. But the game was very much a lost opportunity in this regard. The last 10 minutes of PoE gave you text dumps with a really interesting story - knowing it beforehand would have given your actions some context. But I understand it would be hard to allow player travel the world knowing the spoiler. Can't quite put a finger on what makes Thaos so good in theory and so ineffective. He doesn't appear until the end but so does Torment (both) villains - but in case of those games it might be justified cause they aren't really about villains. Probably it's the fact that Thaos doesn't feel menacing. In the beginning he does shit to a player but it's accidentally. It's not even him looking at a player and saying "I don't care about this stranger, continue dangerous magic stuff", he probably doesn't even know about your existence till half way through the game. And we're only informed he's an evil guy, we only see him doing really bad stuff in the asylum and on Hollowborn summit at the end of Act 2. Even after that he just puts some beefgates on your way. In a way it's a refreshing thing after a traditional villain who sends increasingly stronger opponents after you - here you work on finding him yourself. But it doesn't work that well.

Master was interesting too in that the game allowed you to defeat him just thinking he's an evil mutant if you're a fighter. You have to do some research to learn his past and to understand his plan, and some more to know that plan doesn't work. I suspect it might have turned him into a less effective villain if you did just one playthrough.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I personally don't agree the main antoganist needs to be shades of grey as Sawyer described. A game can have a prime villian, who is clearly destructive, while also running several other strong characters who are more antagonistic rivals or obstacles than villians for example. That however depends on the scope and content of the game. One-dimensional cartoonish evil characters are boring either way.

If the game focuses on supporting characters the enemy may well be a zombie horde a la Dragon Age Origins or Mass Effect 2-3. But writers continually want to create appretiated villain people love. Sort of Dracula type: mysterious, sexy, likable. JRPGs go this way all the time, or at least Final Fantasy games - you had power-hungy clowns up until FF6 but then 6-10 have villains who all had tough childhood and some Nietzhe teen angst bullshit as a goal.

I think one of the reasons people love Dragon Age Origins that much is because the game gave you two villains. If you aren't that invested in the story or want a more straightforward experience you can focus on zombie apocalypse complicated by evil vizier Loghain seizing power. If you're storyfag and think that Game of Thrones is the best thing ever you can look for glimpses of complex political situation and historical reasons and think that there's great depth to the game. I think previous and later games suffered from reliance on complex villains: even when it was done well (Irenicus, Malac, even that Dragon Age 2 templar chick) many players couldn't be bothered to explore villain motivations in an otherwise simple story, or asked why they care at all, or asked why can't they join villain. The latter is especially noticeable in Mass Effect 3 (ME2 explained that The Invisible Man has a good point and it's strange Shepard doesn't try to work with him) or, say, Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny.

I also think Bethesda-style is OK: you have a villain with a clearly evil intentions that need no explanation but if you're so inclined you can find tons of lore making him more justified. Morrowind, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Dark Souls, Fallout 1-2-FNV try to do that.
 

bminorkey

Guest
I think one of the reasons people love Dragon Age Origins that much is because the game gave you two villains.

meh I don't think anyone cared about DA:O's villains, whether they liked the game or not
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
I think one of the reasons people love Dragon Age Origins that much

Very few people here actually love DA:O. At most, people afford it a certain amount of respect for doing some things right (a bit of C&C, a few okay quests, etc.), and doubling as BioWare's last "good for what it is" and "maybe there's still hope for them" game.

After that, it was all downhill.
 

dag0net

Arcane
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
2,729
Were you interested enough by the story to read a book? We're talking about story elements here ryt? Not sure if most of the time I'd say I love DA:O, but I certainly didn't hesitate to get an audiobook as soon as I noticed it.

So far as the villains go, bminorkey I'd say has it spot on. It's the protagonists (the wardens of ferelden) for me 100%, none of the villains in DA:O are real villains, they're characters opposed to the will of the protagonist...well..actually that makes pretty much everybody except Sandal a villain. But eh.
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I wasn't talking about people here, people here do not love anything.

When people *everywhere else* talk about BioWare games and party RPG in general they usually talk about companions. In DAO they also talk about the tragedy of Loghain. Probably cause he's a companion too.

Kreia from SW KotOR 2 is probably a best villain I can remember. However, she requires so much explanation and her motives are so unclear I can't call her a well executed adversary.
 
Self-Ejected

Harry Easter

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
819
Which flavour do you people prefer? Are there perhaps more nuanced flavours hidden in these, perhaps I've overlooked some?

Good question. Sometimes I like a concept for a villain more, than the actual character itself. For example Damian from the Divinity-Series. If you look at Damians actions in Beyond and Dragon Knight Saga, you see a character, who is torn between quite intelligent (for a character in the Divinity-Series), suicidal lunatic (Beyond) or just plain stupid and clichéd Overlord (Dragon Knight Saga), but it is implied, that he may never be the Master of his own mind, since he was eighteen. This gives us some good potential for a complex villain, that wasn't used until now. And I don't know why, but I dig the simple design.

Thaos on the other hand is a good example for a villain with understandable motivations. He doesn't need much screentime, the few conversations we get are enough. But he also works, because we did help him in the past.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
The archvillain of Final Fantasy 8 is Ultimecia.

She time-jump and soul-jump first to MC's foster mother, Matron ak Sorceress Edea, then to MC's love interest, Rinoa. Finally MC's party confront her in a closed off future where she rule the known universe.

It's personal vendetta toward Ultimecia more than saving the world, for Squall.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Master. You can play the whole game and not even meet him. And for all you know those rumors were just rumors... The End. How cool is that.

Also those two from the Witcher... The black dude and his main henchmen. AN interesting duo but i cant seem to remember what a hell happened to them.
 

Darkman

Educated
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
49
They need to be effective at what they do and have a reason for doing the things that they do. People tend to be really good at or at least try to be, at things that they have a real incentive and passion for. One of the biggest reasons why The Master was such an effective villain was the fact that he genuinely believed that turning people into Super Mutants was the best path for civilization in the wasteland. Every evil or questionable act could be explained by him believing that the end goal justify the atrocities he commited to get towards it.

Even Villains like The Joker and Kefka who have flimsy motives like "causing evil for evils sake" make great villains. They enjoy hurting people and causing as much misery, suffering and chaos possible just for it's own sake. They are really good at what they do and they are so good at what they do that most victories against them tend to be Pyrrhic ones. Kafka manged to destroy most of the planet and reign over the ashes for a year. Batman beats up Joker and tosses him into prison only for him to escape slaughter more and occasionally take a piece a way from Batman by maiming one his bat family members.
 
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dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,445
The only villain I really liked was Kain from Legacy of Kain,evil charming bastard through and through and being the protagonist was a big plus.I think playing as a villain is the best way to understand what makes them tick and whatnot
 

Uncle Skull

Educated
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
75
The only villain I really liked was Kain from Legacy of Kain,evil charming bastard through and through and being the protagonist was a big plus.I think playing as a villain is the best way to understand what makes them tick and whatnot

I don't think Kain really qualifies as a villain. He is just a (bit of an) asshole, which makes sense considering that in BO 1 he is a minor noble with a huge ego turned into an undead killing machine.
 

dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,445
The only villain I really liked was Kain from Legacy of Kain,evil charming bastard through and through and being the protagonist was a big plus.I think playing as a villain is the best way to understand what makes them tick and whatnot

I don't think Kain really qualifies as a villain. He is just a (bit of an) asshole, which makes sense considering that in BO 1 he is a minor noble with a huge ego turned into an undead killing machine.

Oh come on dude,he wants absolute power and kills anyone who barely resembles as a threat to his position,that's pretty much text book villain to me.

Something like Lawful Evil,where he still respect some kind of laws,but only those that benefit him.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
you had power-hungy clowns up until FF6

Golbez from FF II/IV wasn't that, more of a mind controlled Japanese Darth Vader.

If he does make the cut of that definition then 7-9 fit in as well alongside the added emo shit, with Sephiroth wanting to merge with the planet to become a god, Ultimecia wanting not simply to rule the universe but rule all time as well and Kuja wanting some mix of extermination and absolute rule.
 

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