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I have no patience for RPGs anymore

Melcar

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Don't forget the faster porn streaming.
 
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How about we stick with the strategy games I already listed as being fun for me. I've already stated RPG AI tends to be inadequate, so trying to use it as an argument for DF AI being good enough is logically invalid.

It's pretty unfair to compare the AI of games like Age of Wonders to that of DF. I enjoyed playing Shadow Magic back in the day, but let's be honest here, its a fairly simple game. You have a small map, a few settlements on it with a simple fixed build tree, a few points of interest, and so on. Creating an AI for this type of thing is several orders of magnitude easier than for DF. That's why you typically see a corresponding curve between game complexity and AI problems. More complex games like RPGs or even say Paradox grand strategy games, have more AI issues, because there is a lot more on AI's plate.

DF AI is not shallow/buggy/quirky by some inviolable law that says complex systems make AI flawed. DF AI has the problems it has because of how it has been coded - as a bunch of special cases (similar to an expert system) rather than as a generic AI (generalized search and learning). With a generic AI all you have to do is codify the rules (the "complex systems") in a format the AI understands. (A generic AI does require more effort/skill to create than a bunch of special cases, but once it's done you can add more rules without having to redo the AI, without having to worry about complex AI bugs, and without ending up with an AI that doesn't know how to use rules except in the few special cases that have been explicitly coded.)

Are you kidding me? If someone develops a generic AI that can run DF, that will be the Singularity, won't it? :)

The problem is that those higher level conflicts are scripted stories, and I want something better than that. What DF provides in its place is nothing. There is no higher level conflict in DF. It just doesn't exist. That means there's no real over-arching story lines either. Sure, you can make a blog of what your DF character did this day and the next and the next and call that a story, but that's really not an interesting story, at least not to me.

You do realize that DF is in the middle of its development right now, right? As in still 20 years or so from reaching alpha according to the devs' plans? And that adding overarching aspects is already being done and will definitely be done more in the future? The last update or the one before that, they put the world in motion, as in bandit leaders can procedurally decide to attack and occupy towns on the world map and other things of that nature. This is all still in very early stages, but they have a lot planned. Here are some samples from the Development list on DF website:

"Villains etc. should seek to steal artifacts still possessed by active entities, generalizing the theft "armies" that currently move over the map to your fortress
Hostile civ leaders and the new hist figs being able to harass others by sending out groups
Various evil plots realized in play through regular AI actions
Historical figures allied or working under greater, possibly hidden, masters"

And what part of that video I posted, where the player sets the elf village on fire, and then the elf elder is happy to have a cordial chat with the player while the village burns (and the elf guards just stand in the fire and burn) was "believable"?

As I already mentioned, this is obviously unintended and will get fixed in time.

Dude, I watched the video. Awesome it was not. It was boring. Don't think you can use argument to convince me that what I watched was in fact not boring. (Though technically I didn't watch most of it, just listened to it while I read other stuff and only flipped it back to foreground to watch if something interesting was going on. It was almost 20 minutes of pretty much nothing interesting.)

Have you considered the possibility that maybe you are just too intelligent and edgy to enjoy video games? Perhaps it's time to move on.
 

shihonage

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When you were young, things were new. Fewer things felt like "been there, done that", because, well, you hadn't been there, and you hadn't done that yet. In addition, we weren't inundated with games. If you couldn't handle XCOM's godawful interface, tough. There simply wasn't a decent alternative.

So we buckled down and learned the interface, and drew the maps on graph paper, and took notes, with an actual pen, on actual paper, because that's what we had to do. We did all the horrible, dull grinding you had to do in Bard's Tale, and went up and down multi-level dungeons just to heal at a temple, because that's what you did. We didn't even mind, it was part of the challenge. Fast travel? Hah.

And somewhere along the way, games became a big business and supply began outstripping demand, and accordingly, we became demanding, whiny little bitches with entitlement complexes and ADHD. Oh no, it's like 30 seconds to walk across the map! Oh no, nothing exciting has happened for like two minutes now! This game sucks! I bet Naruto would have punched like three dudes' faces off in this time!

Yeah well fuck you. The merit of a game is how much fun can be extracted from it, not how much it shoves at you constantly. Would a game be better if it never wasted your time with pointless backtracking or shitty tutorials? Yeah. But if you're unwilling to make the effort to work past a game's flaws and find the fun in it, then I don't think RPGs are really your thing. Also, your 12-year-old self is ashamed of you.

This is written under the assumption that these flaws are an inherent part of RPG design, and once you take them out, the fun goes with them.

That is false. It's just that some older RPGs actually DID manage to REWARD you for being a glorified janitor, because they DID have some positive qualities, like general depth of interactions or non-linearity or an interesting story.

In that way, "Underrail" mirrors those traits, as it rewards people with in-depth combat (those that are into that sort of thing).

In these scenarios, like in "Flowers For Algernon", you start off as a janitor, but eventually your mental facilities are exercised far beyond janitorial work.

Modern RPGs don't even reward you. They want you to be the janitor and ONLY the janitor, and fucking ENJOY it. Your destiny is to mop those floors forever. Rejoice, for maybe eventually you'll find a nickel.

The problem is, indeed, that these games are aimed at 12-year-olds. And no one else.
 

TedNugent

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  • "Crafting" and "Gathering" - i.e. making player tinker with mundane garbage instead of just finding strategically placed items, or having satisfyingly balanced random drops, or quest rewards. This MMO-derived "feature" is completely out of place in most games, and it destroys them.
:bravo: Praise you
 
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Don't forget the faster porn streaming.

"What's streaming"

"Basically, better online porn"

"What...in the future you can play any game and watch any porn...and you're BORED?"

"It's more of an ennui thing. I feel nostalgic for the time I was you and had to endure an entire weekend with a rented game that turned out to be shit...it builds character, you see."

"Are you fucking high?"
 

Mustawd

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Instant travel is a game killing for me.
It is clearly an awfull lazy move from dev considering the billions of more believable options to speed up travel.
It isn't like the only two options are walk slowly like a turtle with crippled legs vs teleport everywhere anytime.
There is no excuse for such a failure when you can copy paste much much much much much better concepts.

As a side note, i think watching Naruto all the way require more patience than playing RPG. I doubt i would have such patience.


You'll like it when you're older. Like vegetables.

Also, you'll stop liking RPGs without fast travel, cuz Aint Nobody Got Time For That.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
Underrail's biggest downside for me is that it is a single character rather than a party. TB with one character has a limited ceiling for me. If it was party based TB with the same level of care taken for balancing and challenge it would be something very very special.

That said, portions of Underrail that I really like are much more suited to one character so it's zero sum for me.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

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I'm really annoyed with games lately, not only RPGs but other genres too. I won't even mention popamole games, they are a lost case, but it annoys me that years and years later the same mistakes made and crutches of 20 years ago or more continue. Trash mobs, exposition NPCs, no C&C, too much attention to linear non-interactive storylines that are terrible anyway and fuck with replays, fake choices that fool nobody, shitty worldbuilding, too much focus on quantity over quality, repetitive gameplay, not letting the player explore the possibilities but just giving everything he needs to know on a silver platter.

On the kickstarter front, it was major disappointment after disappointment, even most people that like them (exception of the retarded fanboys) say they are just good for what it is, bad/mediocre clones of games made 20 years ago. Funny that games made by "professional" game designers, people who live by making money from games and are supposed to be very knowledgeable about game design are inferior products when compared with enthusiast projects.

RPG land is absolutely barren of quality shit, no wonder people find hard to keep engaged, ... sometimes... you find a gem otherwise you have to deal with WoW clones, single player WoW clones or shovelware/poorly made versions of 20 years old games. Boy, I still want the experience I had when the first time I played Fallout or Bloodlines and no, it isn't that I'm getting old and grumpy or nostalgia but games with identity made with vision and not base pandering to retards are really rare. On the 90's, every time you saw a game it was a mystery, you didn't fuck know how it played or what their setting was. Nowdays... you see a shooter, you know its a CoD clone, you look to open world games and you know it is a shitty collecthaton copy pasta, you look to RPGs and you know there is a trash mob army and fake choices waiting just for you.
 

agentorange

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The "industry" game developers are cowards who have allowed themselves to be pushed around by studio execs, who are only interested in profit margins, for so long that it has become standard. No one wants to take any chances and there are enough stupid people out there who will keep buying the same old shit. Only hope is that some of these bright, talented new independent developers can make enough off their smaller games to be able to invest in creating something on a larger scale - without sacrificing their creative freedom.
 
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On the 90's, every time you saw a game it was a mystery, you didn't fuck know how it played or what their setting was.

That's what I miss the most about my early gaming days. Part of it, of course, was just me being new to games and discovering everything for the first time, but still, in those days, you really didn't know what you were getting. You read the box, looked at the beautiful art/screenshots, and if you liked it, you bought it, went home, and got ready for a completely new adventure. It really did seem like every other game completely turned some genre on its head and did new things.

Now, that's pretty much gone for good from established developers. If it's not publishers pushing them to squeeze out sequels, yearly franchise entries or DLCs, then it's the pressure to make their Kickstarter similar to some older game. Any time some particular game catches fire, everyone tries to clone it to death.
 

Ashenai

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This is written under the assumption that these flaws are an inherent part of RPG design, and once you take them out, the fun goes with them.

That is false. It's just that some older RPGs actually DID manage to REWARD you for being a glorified janitor, because they DID have some positive qualities, like general depth of interactions or non-linearity or an interesting story.

In that way, "Underrail" mirrors those traits, as it rewards people with in-depth combat (those that are into that sort of thing).

In these scenarios, like in "Flowers For Algernon", you start off as a janitor, but eventually your mental facilities are exercised far beyond janitorial work.

Modern RPGs don't even reward you. They want you to be the janitor and ONLY the janitor, and fucking ENJOY it. Your destiny is to mop those floors forever. Rejoice, for maybe eventually you'll find a nickel.

The problem is, indeed, that these games are aimed at 12-year-olds. And no one else.

No. I didn't say or imply that these flaws are necessary for an RPG to be good. I'm simply saying they're unavoidable. It's just not possible for an RPG to avoid timewasting, whether it be with trash mobs or boring hiking while nothing happens, or backtracking, or whatever. It's too difficult a design goal.

You'll notice that none of the original rants mentioned any actual examples of RPG that completely avoided wasting your time. That's because THERE ARE NONE. Literally none. And that's why I said that if you can't tolerate a bit of timewasting, RPGs aren't for you.

There is a genre of games that do mostly avoid wasting your time, but they're not RPGs. The genre in question is minimalistic action/puzzle games, like Bejeweled or Super Hexagon. Those games don't waste a second of your time: you get to experience the full fun of the game every moment you're playing it. It's possible for them to do this, because they're so simple. And I say this without scorn; I play and enjoy both of the games I mentioned. But they're not RPGs.

In theory, an RPG that avoided pointless busywork without becoming ridiculously simple would be awesome! But that game doesn't exist, never has, and never will. Not because time-wasting is an intrinsic part of the fun, but simply because it's not possible to design perfectly interlocking complex systems that aren't sometimes inefficient. It's simply not a realistic design goal.
 

lemon-lime

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On the kickstarter front, it was major disappointment after disappointment, even most people that like them (exception of the retarded fanboys) say they are just good for what it is, bad/mediocre clones of games made 20 years ago. Funny that games made by "professional" game designers, people who live by making money from games and are supposed to be very knowledgeable about game design are inferior products when compared with enthusiast projects.

Counting on Kickstarter is a fool's errant. That system doesn't lead to different results than the publically traded publisher model. The games are made to sell. After the developer has collected all the money from the grognards, that money is used to design a game, that's bought by people, who haven't backed the project yet.
There is no incentive to do it differently.
 

Trip

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No. I didn't say or imply that these flaws are necessary for an RPG to be good. I'm simply saying they're unavoidable. It's just not possible for an RPG to avoid timewasting, whether it be with trash mobs or boring hiking while nothing happens, or backtracking, or whatever. It's too difficult a design goal.

I wouldn't say that it is, although it might be difficult. (As any meaningful design goal is.) Any designer worth their salt could at least brainstorm techniques to abstract these elements in interesting strategic or narrative ways, and brainstorm lots of them. Also, it's not that difficult of a design goal if it's in line with other, more realistic design goals, like maybe "Don't make another "150-hour" RPG".

And really, how hard would it be to just tweak and modernize the Fallout oveland travel system a little bit, honestly? Just an example of an actual classic minimizing boring hikes, brain-dead simple.
 

Telengard

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The Kickstarters were never going to innovate on anything. They were caching in on nostalgia. And the trouble is: caching in on nostalgia and innovation are kind of anathema. By the very nature of the quest for nostalgia, things can never be too different from what they were. It's kind of the definition of nostalgia. Nostalgia offerings can only be apings of what came before, or else they won't make the nostalgic feeling happen. And if nostalgia-seekers are the bankroll, then inevitably nostalgic apings are what you're going to get.

Couple that with soft funding, and the Codex Kickstarter Malaise was inevitable. It simply is as VD warned: Kickstarters ask for the amount of money they can get, not the amount of money they actually need to fulfil their ideas. Want Fallout? In a strict inflation ratio, dollar for dollar, you need 5 million. Factor in the current weak dollar and the fact that big studios these days vacuum up a lot of the talent you would want, and you're probably looking at realistically 6-6.5 million. And that's just to make Fallout as is, warts and all, with some minor tech upgrades. If you want to innovate, you'll need to pump up the monies some more. And if you want a full upgrade to modern times? Mid-size studio budgets start at 10 million.

Magic can still happen with budget tier titles, true. Magic can happen anywhere, as things just magically coalesce into something special. But combine budget-level money with the bankroll coming from nostalgia backers, and good-for-what-it-is becomes the highest probability of what you're going to get.
 

shihonage

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No. I didn't say or imply that these flaws are necessary for an RPG to be good. I'm simply saying they're unavoidable. It's just not possible for an RPG to avoid timewasting, whether it be with trash mobs or boring hiking while nothing happens, or backtracking, or whatever. It's too difficult a design goal.

You'll notice that none of the original rants mentioned any actual examples of RPG that completely avoided wasting your time. That's because THERE ARE NONE. Literally none. And that's why I said that if you can't tolerate a bit of timewasting, RPGs aren't for you.

There is a genre of games that do mostly avoid wasting your time, but they're not RPGs. The genre in question is minimalistic action/puzzle games, like Bejeweled or Super Hexagon. Those games don't waste a second of your time: you get to experience the full fun of the game every moment you're playing it. It's possible for them to do this, because they're so simple. And I say this without scorn; I play and enjoy both of the games I mentioned. But they're not RPGs.

In theory, an RPG that avoided pointless busywork without becoming ridiculously simple would be awesome! But that game doesn't exist, never has, and never will. Not because time-wasting is an intrinsic part of the fun, but simply because it's not possible to design perfectly interlocking complex systems that aren't sometimes inefficient. It's simply not a realistic design goal.

You went from
"horrible, dull grinding"/"went up and down multi-level dungeons just to heal at a temple"/drew the maps on [...] paper"
to
"backtracking"/"a bit of timewasting"/"sometimes inefficient".

You retconned this exchange, making me into someone who "can't tolerate a bit of timewasting". Now I supposedly have to come up with an RPG that "completely avoids wasting your time"? Really?

That was pretty shitty of you, but hey, thanks for the tip - I'm no longer wasting time on this exchange.
 
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  • "Crafting" and "Gathering" - i.e. making player tinker with mundane garbage instead of just finding strategically placed items, or having satisfyingly balanced random drops, or quest rewards. This MMO-derived "feature" is completely out of place in most games, and it destroys them.
:bravo: Praise you

finding recipes to make food that gave you a .05 of 1% increase in some stat for 300 seconds in PoE is a major fucking immersion killing experience. Can't believe josh sawyer thought this was a good idea. hate gathering shit to make pies and crap in RPg's, its fucking ridiculous.
 

shihonage

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finding recipes to make food that gave you a .05 of 1% increase in some stat for 300 seconds in PoE is a major fucking immersion killing experience. Can't believe josh sawyer thought this was a good idea. hate gathering shit to make pies and crap in RPg's, its fucking ridiculous.

It's part of the "old-skool recipe" "for those nerds who like that stuff". Dog food, like Wasteland 2.

"Hey those nerds really like tinkering with pointless shit for hours and hours and sifting through diarrhea of filler text - I think we really nailed the demographic this time!"
 

Ashenai

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No. I didn't say or imply that these flaws are necessary for an RPG to be good. I'm simply saying they're unavoidable. It's just not possible for an RPG to avoid timewasting, whether it be with trash mobs or boring hiking while nothing happens, or backtracking, or whatever. It's too difficult a design goal.

You'll notice that none of the original rants mentioned any actual examples of RPG that completely avoided wasting your time. That's because THERE ARE NONE. Literally none. And that's why I said that if you can't tolerate a bit of timewasting, RPGs aren't for you.

There is a genre of games that do mostly avoid wasting your time, but they're not RPGs. The genre in question is minimalistic action/puzzle games, like Bejeweled or Super Hexagon. Those games don't waste a second of your time: you get to experience the full fun of the game every moment you're playing it. It's possible for them to do this, because they're so simple. And I say this without scorn; I play and enjoy both of the games I mentioned. But they're not RPGs.

In theory, an RPG that avoided pointless busywork without becoming ridiculously simple would be awesome! But that game doesn't exist, never has, and never will. Not because time-wasting is an intrinsic part of the fun, but simply because it's not possible to design perfectly interlocking complex systems that aren't sometimes inefficient. It's simply not a realistic design goal.

You went from
"horrible, dull grinding"/"went up and down multi-level dungeons just to heal at a temple"/drew the maps on [...] paper"
to
"backtracking"/"a bit of timewasting"/"sometimes inefficient".

You retconned this exchange, making me into someone who "can't tolerate a bit of timewasting". Now I supposedly have to come up with an RPG that "completely avoids wasting your time"? Really?

That was pretty shitty of you, but hey, thanks for the tip - I'm no longer wasting time on this exchange.

I have no clue what your problem is. How do the two things you quoted from me contradict each other? What I said was that with old games (when we were young), we tolerated just absurd amounts of timewasting, things that would make most players immediately toss a game into the garbage today. Like a dungeon crawler with no automap.

Today, games are somewhat better about these things, because "not making the player do pointless bullshit" has actually become a design goal. So most modern games don't make you draw your own maps, or backtrack to the town every time you get wounded.

And accordingly, our expectations have grown, until what we get is the OP, who throws a hissy fit because the movement speed in a game isn't quite fast enough. Aah! His precious seconds!

Even though RPG have eliminated some of the more egregious timewasters, expecting them to not have even "a bit of timewasting", like the OP seems to want, is not realistic. He needs to recalibrate his expectations, or give up the genre. And anyone who's looking for an RPG with no trash mobs, no backtracking, and no bits without meaningful decisions... is going to be looking for a long time.

You seem to be taking my posts personally, when most of them weren't aimed at you at all.

(I like your Karate Kid review, by the way. That, at least, wasn't a waste of time.)
 

Ashenai

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I have no clue what your problem is. How do the two things you quoted from me contradict each other?

I am too old for this shit. Do yourself a favor and google "shifting goalposts" and "strawman argument".

The issue is that you're not taking the effort to understand my actual points. You took two of my points (the two sentences you quoted) out of context and constructed a narrative where I equated those two points. I did not. There was no shifting of goalposts, because the first sentence was never one of the goalposts. It was simply part of an illustration of how our expectations of RPGs have changed over the decades.
 

Trip

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And anyone who's looking for an RPG with no trash mobs, no backtracking, and no bits without meaningful decisions... is going to be looking for a long time.

Is there a reason why this isn't achievable? A purely design one?
 

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