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I'm looking forward to Oblivion.

TheGreatGodPan

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Joined
Jul 21, 2005
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I usually agree with Vault Dweller, but some of his "news" didn't belong in the news forum. The General RPG or even General Discussion would have been better.
 

Sol Invictus

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Oct 19, 2002
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Pax Romana
Yeah that's true. The news is always 3+ days old because when it comes from anyone other than Saint. Everyone else who posts news either "doesn't care about (insert game here)" or "didn't think it was newsworthy". See: VD's comments on how Titan Quest or any action RPG for that matter isn't interesting to him.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
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Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
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Yes
Sol Invictus said:
Yeah that's true. The news is always 3+ days old because when it comes from anyone other than Saint. Everyone else who posts news either "doesn't care about (insert game here)" or "didn't think it was newsworthy". See: VD's comments on how Titan Quest or any action RPG for that matter isn't interesting to him.

Well, it's either that or someone that thinks Gauntlet is a fucking RPG.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
This site is so messed up.....devs from all over come to be insulted....some Volourn guy with 5000 posts is spamming for some reason.....this Sol Invictus keeps posting here even though everyone seems to hate him.

Bah...I don't get you people.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Sol Invictus said:
Yeah that's true. The news is always 3+ days old because when it comes from anyone other than Saint.
Again with the bullshit. What's with the pathological need to lie? Do you feel that you will be taken less seriously unless you make some shit up?

Anyway, here is a newsflash, this is a crappy news site, but it's the best RPG discussion site I've ever seen. I can't speak for everyone on the staff, but I don't post news - you want news, go visit RPG Dot, I post topics for discussions.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Tintin said:
This site is so messed up.....devs from all over come to be insulted....some Volourn guy with 5000 posts is spamming for some reason.....this Sol Invictus keeps posting here even though everyone seems to hate him.
Business as usual, another day at the Codex.
 

franc kaos

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
298
Location
On the outside ~ looking in...
angler said:
I am too looking forward to this "Oblivion".
I too am looking forward to Oblivion, but that doesn't mean that Bethesda just want fans that say (wow that's the greatest).

After Arena, people asked for undulating landscape and better NPCs, they got them. After Daggerfall people asked for smaller dungeons and better NPCs (and appealed for playable beast races), they got them. After MW they asked for better directions and NPCs, they're getting them.

We're also losing a lot of things, but that's been happening since Daggerfall (damn the console kids - even if they are a necessary evil). If we don't kick up an incisive and insightfull fuss, the developers will assume we're happy with this mainstreaming that's occurring.

Oh, and I don't know who wrote that interview but it was damn funny, they just missed out one phrase, 'Trust us, it will be great.'.

Does anyone know a site that teachs this l33t speak? as I can't understand most of it (ie !!!111, RoXor etc).
 

Psilon

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Codex retirement
Franc, Argonians and Khajjit were playable races in Daggerfall--select Black Marsh or Elsweyr as your home province. That's not something they added in Morrowind.
 

Micmu

Magister
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ALIEN BASE-3
But they did add orkz!

Btw, too bad that they humanized again both Khajiits and Argonians, their chicken walking was fun.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Wo HO, that is some FOXY serve of 100% Orc LADYNESS
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Hubba Hubba Wubba
schWING DAGADAGADAGADA schWING
HOO HOO HOO
 

TheGreatGodPan

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Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,762
franc kaos said:
Does anyone know a site that teachs this l33t speak? as I can't understand most of it (ie !!!111, RoXor etc).
Just grab a heavy blunt object and smash your head in with it repeatedly. Eventually all language will cease to have any meaning and l33t will make perfect sense.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Psilon said:
Franc, Argonians and Khajjit were playable races in Daggerfall--select Black Marsh or Elsweyr as your home province. That's not something they added in Morrowind.

I think he was talking about how they originally announced that the beast races were not in morrowind, so everyone complained and they eventually put them in.

Doesn't work anymore though! People were complaining about crossbows and throwing weapons a year ago and still nothing! Take that potential customers, you shall not sway the almighty Bethesda again!
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
TheGreatGodPan said:
franc kaos said:
Does anyone know a site that teachs this l33t speak? as I can't understand most of it (ie !!!111, RoXor etc).
Just grab a heavy blunt object and smash your head in with it repeatedly. Eventually all language will cease to have any meaning and l33t will make perfect sense.
Like an axe, for example.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Sol Invictus said:
Saint is wrong about Emergent AI. It might not be as complex as The Sims 2 but the NPCs definitely have desires that they need to fulfill (e.g. eating food) and they have to attain it in some way or another that results in emergent behavior. It might not be so complex as to cause big changes, but it's still emergent to the smallest of degrees.

Besides, more can be done with it. We're not talking about Fargoth here.

I'm genuinely interested in RAI, and if I get Oblivion, it will be the main reason. That said, I haven't seen anything to suggest that RAI is an emergent AI system, and I would be completely shocked if it was. From what I've read it seems much more likely that it's a boring old rules based system with some nondeterminism thrown in to keep you jumping. Still a step in the right direction for gaming, and something to be excited about seeing in action.
 

TheGreatGodPan

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Joined
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Messages
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obediah said:
with some nondeterminism
This isn't quantum mechanics. There will be things that happen the designers didn't plan or foresee, but it would still be deterministic.
 

obediah

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Messages
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TheGreatGodPan said:
obediah said:
with some nondeterminism
This isn't quantum mechanics. There will be things that happen the designers didn't plan or foresee, but it would still be deterministic.

I don't know jack shit about quantum mechanics, but in computation theory it basically-sorta-kinda means there is a branching path. In this case it would mean using a random number to make a decision, so that you can't rely on the same thing happening every time. I guess we could take this into some discussion about knowing the initial state of the random number generator in use, and the state of every data point used in the generator, and from there to recording all particles in the universe to prove free will a myth, but that seems a bit off topic.
 

voodoo1man

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
568
Location
Icy Highlands of Canada
obediah said:
I don't know jack shit about quantum mechanics, but in computation theory it basically-sorta-kinda means there is a branching path.

I love the computer science definition of non-determinism, only I wish they labeled it what it really is: MAGIC! Ho ho ho, here's an impossibly hard problem with 20^40^800! different branches. No worries, put it in the magical non-deterministic box and it takes all possible steps using almost no time or resources and out pops your answer! Now I only wish those stupid computer scientists would stop talking about it and actually go out and build one of these magic boxes.

obediah said:
In this case it would mean using a random number to make a decision, so that you can't rely on the same thing happening every time.

Hold on a minute! I get this funny feeling I have encountered this notion somewhere before. Hmm, wait, let me refresh my memory. Ohh, it's so fuzzy, I don't know what it could be...

Wait! I got it! It's exactly like rolling dice to make a decision so you can't rely on the same thing happening every time!

Why don't we stop labeling this stupid system with "non-determinism" and "sooper-dooper Radiant radiating radiation radiator AI" and just call it what it is: a sort of probabilistic finite automaton? At least that's what I think it is, since from everything I've read about Radiant AI, you wouldn't need anything more complicated to implement what Bethesda is doing.
 

Psilon

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Messages
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Codex retirement
Actually, there's no need to know everything about the universe in order to figure out what's coming next from a pseudorandom number generator. While there are many good ones, the standard rand() functions in most C runtime libraries are absolutely awful. Combine that with the traditional practice of seeding from the system timer, and it turns out that exploiting that kind of sequence is really easy.

Voodoo: Jesus Christ, what are you trying to do that's O(k^(n!)) with those constants? Bogo-sort a DNA sequence? Also, people are working on those magic boxes. They're called quantum computers.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Can we get back to talking about how cool Oblivion is going to be?

Quantum Mechanics are against my religion.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
5,051
voodoo1man said:
obediah said:
I don't know jack shit about quantum mechanics, but in computation theory it basically-sorta-kinda means there is a branching path.

I love the computer science definition of non-determinism, only I wish they labeled it what it really is: MAGIC! Ho ho ho, here's an impossibly hard problem with 20^40^800! different branches. No worries, put it in the magical non-deterministic box and it takes all possible steps using almost no time or resources and out pops your answer! Now I only wish those stupid computer scientists would stop talking about it and actually go out and build one of these magic boxes.

Heh, I hear you. I really do, but in all fairness those old nerdy CS professors with the giant math brains really don't care about implementation. It's all about proving ... err well proofs. I can deal with the basics, but I get in over my head pretty quickly in some of the proofs. And I guess there is a difference between a problem that is garaunteed to be solved with infinite computation vs one that isn't, but the ability to do so means jack to most programmers.

obediah said:
In this case it would mean using a random number to make a decision, so that you can't rely on the same thing happening every time.

Hold on a minute! I get this funny feeling I have encountered this notion somewhere before. Hmm, wait, let me refresh my memory. Ohh, it's so fuzzy, I don't know what it could be...

Wait! I got it! It's exactly like rolling dice to make a decision so you can't rely on the same thing happening every time!

Why don't we stop labeling this stupid system with "non-determinism" and "sooper-dooper Radiant radiating radiation radiator AI" and just call it what it is: a sort of probabilistic finite automaton? At least that's what I think it is, since from everything I've read about Radiant AI, you wouldn't need anything more complicated to implement what Bethesda is doing.[/quote]

I do apologize for breaking out lingo, I hate it myself, but after years of stuffy professors frowning and huffing when I mention using a neural network to introduce "randomness", it's getting harder to talk about this stuff in laymans terms. Besides, Sol started 10 cent word bingo by incorrectly bringing out the the "Emergent AI" crap.

I think the important message can be said without technical mumbo-jumbo. RAI sounds interetings from a gamer's persepective, perhaps not breaking new ground, but better than than most (I'm reminded of a horrible interview with the people behind the Halo "AI"). It's not however interesting AI work. I've you're jerking off to sleep fantasizing about about an Oblivion NPC that becomes aware and begs you not to quit the game, you're going to be let down.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
11,475
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Behind you.
Exitium, you should consider looking up the term "emergent AI" sometime. There's nothing remotely emerging from Radiant AI except the hype train.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Emergent AI? I dunno. Wouldn't that mean the NPCs actually grow as a community with other NPCs and the player acting as a catalyst? I haven't read anything that says they "grow", in fact, I've heard it's just to make scripting easier and to make the NPCs walk around and OMG TEHY EAT!!!!

I liked the other term that was mentioned around here before... NPC Scheduler. Yes, yes.
 

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