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Improving Skyrim / Recommended Mods thread (Mostly about Requiem)
- Thread starter King Crispy
- Start date
Jarmaro
Liturgist
Skyblivion, this time with actual release date.
NecroLord
Learned
Yosharian
Magister
Interesting
Leveling destruction and magic overall[beside restoration] is absolute chore, it looks like the retardo devs of requiem adjusted their mod for the MMO mind riddled DID/permadeath powergamers, who dont mind doing inorganic stuff to gain levels. I remember a guide for oblivion telling to just press the W key against the wall to level sprinting, its the same kind of "mindset" in requiem. Why cast a firebolt ten times, when you can cast rune to get same XP, its like they actively want you to use a close range spell just to make it harder by stupid design...
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My experience so far: My two main skills, Illusion and Conjuration (this is in Wildlander) are leveling perfectly "organically" as I think you're suggesting. My character is level 34, which is considered about mid-range for Wildlander, and the two skills are currently at about 87 and 79, respectively.
These two skills, along with my other useful ones, have been going up steadily enough, at a reasonably diminishing rate, just as I go out adventuring. They level up quickest that way, understandably; I'm using them the most then. I have used spell research (a feature in Wildlander, not sure if in standard Requiem or not) to supplement their training -- namely when one of the skills is just on the cusp of leveling, and I want to nudge it past right before resting, for example.
I haven't needed to nor wanted to "grind" anything. Then again, I'm perfectly happy with the progression I've seen so far and, in fact, think my two main skills almost might be progressing too quickly. But, I usually quickly change my mind about that when I run into the next monster that utterly destroys me, my party, and my confidence.
These two skills, along with my other useful ones, have been going up steadily enough, at a reasonably diminishing rate, just as I go out adventuring. They level up quickest that way, understandably; I'm using them the most then. I have used spell research (a feature in Wildlander, not sure if in standard Requiem or not) to supplement their training -- namely when one of the skills is just on the cusp of leveling, and I want to nudge it past right before resting, for example.
I haven't needed to nor wanted to "grind" anything. Then again, I'm perfectly happy with the progression I've seen so far and, in fact, think my two main skills almost might be progressing too quickly. But, I usually quickly change my mind about that when I run into the next monster that utterly destroys me, my party, and my confidence.
Yosharian
Magister
Nope not a Requiem feature
WhiteShark
Learned
I don't know about Requiem or its compatibility requirements, but I know there are mods that replace train-by-using with a more traditional XP expenditure mechanism. I think there is a gold-is-exp mod too.
I know, the mod is called Experience and has requiem patch. I want my first requiem playthrough a requiem vanilla type of playthrough, so no mods other than graphical/UI/QoL/fixes. Otherwise i would use that mod, or skyrim skill unacapper and set my own leveling curve.
Skyland is pretty good, if you want parallax feature then use Skyrim 2022.
Any news on Beyond Skyrim Cyrodiil?
Didn't want to read because it's reddit shit, but i checked anyway and this is literally everything that's wrong with reddit in a single thread. I knew reddit is bad and westoids love their precious faggots but i didn't realize the extent of brainwashing. Almost every reply is about how wrong homophobia is, this is pretty much cringy and vindictive hivemind of fag enablers. Makes me sick.
Didn't want to read because it's reddit shit, but i checked anyway and this is literally everything that's wrong with reddit in a single thread. I knew reddit is bad and westoids love their precious faggots but i didn't realize the extent of brainwashing. Almost every reply is about how wrong homophobia is, this is pretty much cringy and vindictive hivemind of fag enablers. Makes me sick.
Luzur
Good Sir
Jarmaro
Liturgist
Started my first real Requiem playthrough yesterday and I have strong misgivings about the mod and the entire philosophy behind it. I'm all for deleveling the world, but the game simply doesn't work with that idea unless you significantly alter many parts of it. For one, the player is supposed to start small and develop until he can attempt to fight stronger opponents. Basic, every RPG does that. However, every RPG is designed with that idea in mind. Deleving doesn't really work in Open World games, unless certain zones or places have designated higher level content. But the player has a place to start and obvious path to follow, it's designed to be played.
Requiem is fundamentally unprepared for the player to play the game. Most common advice from the mod's users seems to be 'train against low level opponents until you develop skills enough to tackle stronger opponents.' But by 'train' they mean grind. You have to game the system and let weak enemies hit you to level Evasion/Heavy Armor, or keep blocking attacks from Mudcrabs. This appears to be what a typical Requiem player does, because the game cannot support starting characters and introduce them into the world. And they accept it. Even Morrowind wasn't that stupid and interweaved static enemies with level-scalled enemies.
The most baffling is that the situation is fixable in multiple ways, i.e every character would only get three perks at the start, but also get higher level in the invested trees, giving him a reasonable leg-up necessary to engage with the world. Or dedicate one province of Skyrim to low level enemies that the player can have a reasonable place to start.
I've recently hit 25 in Sneaking and Illusion, and my gameplay utterly changed. Now I can finally have gameplay, instead of trying to cheat systems. I could only achieve it due to grinding Sneak by walking around a bandit camp while they looked for me. Before I got a Muffle perk I couldn't even walk behind any single creature and try to level, it was simply impossible. No matter their level. For Illusion I needed to use another mod that supplied Training Dummies to practice against, and still it took a lot of time.
Leveling speed is another baffling design choice, Illusion gives next to none experience for casting spells. At first I thought it's some kind of bug, but it appears this is the intended behaviour. I can swing a sword a few times and get few levels at the start, meanwhile illusion takes minutes to get a single level. Before I even hit level 10 in the skill.
That Requiem is biased towards melee builds is another problem. Illusion and Sneaking are simply not supported by the game. A common complain I read is that mid-high level opponents are simply unbeatable with Sneaking and Illusion, sneak attacks don't even work against Undead, Daedra and Dwemers. Meanwhile every other character can happily stride in whatever dungeon and fight everything head on.
The funniest part is that game appears to be extremely difficult - if not unbeatable - if one doesn't invest heavily into crafting - Alchemy, Smithing or Enchating. Alchemy specificaly appears to be used by basically every player, not using it in a playthrough is fiercely discouraged. In short, you can play Requiem in whatever way you want - but unless you play as a melee character that uses Alchemy you are going to suffer. As for Destruction/Conjuration characters I don't know, but it seems those magic schools level much faster than Illusion.
In short, so far my experiences were definitely not good, overal. At first I was overjoyed to be poor character that needs to start from scratch, but while the concept is alluring, the game is unable to support it. You can't even play as a thief, because not only are stolen items priced extremely low (you also needs perks in speech to get any reasonable prices), but the game has next to nothing to steal. I went through multiple houses in Riften and Whiterun and found only a few coin purses, with zero valuables. There are houses with expert locks in them, but considering Requiem doesn't change overhaul houses I don't think they would contain anything worth stealing.
I'm annoyed. I spent a lot of time trying to get my mod list to work with Requiem, learning how the mod works and how to play, just to experience a mod that despite being in developement for years is unable to provice me with satisfying experience.
To make it worse, I saw a perk overhaul Adamant and other complementary mods developed by the same author, creating a consistent overhaul of the game from difficulty of enemies, minimal level for enemies, to distinct strengths for races. Basically, Requiem-light, but one that attempts to work with Skyrim's original design to improve it, instead of bashing head against the wall, hoping to achieve anything.Not to mention incredibly more flexible in moding. I will give Requiem one more day of playing and decide it's an experience worth pursuing, but I have low hopes.
Requiem is fundamentally unprepared for the player to play the game. Most common advice from the mod's users seems to be 'train against low level opponents until you develop skills enough to tackle stronger opponents.' But by 'train' they mean grind. You have to game the system and let weak enemies hit you to level Evasion/Heavy Armor, or keep blocking attacks from Mudcrabs. This appears to be what a typical Requiem player does, because the game cannot support starting characters and introduce them into the world. And they accept it. Even Morrowind wasn't that stupid and interweaved static enemies with level-scalled enemies.
The most baffling is that the situation is fixable in multiple ways, i.e every character would only get three perks at the start, but also get higher level in the invested trees, giving him a reasonable leg-up necessary to engage with the world. Or dedicate one province of Skyrim to low level enemies that the player can have a reasonable place to start.
I've recently hit 25 in Sneaking and Illusion, and my gameplay utterly changed. Now I can finally have gameplay, instead of trying to cheat systems. I could only achieve it due to grinding Sneak by walking around a bandit camp while they looked for me. Before I got a Muffle perk I couldn't even walk behind any single creature and try to level, it was simply impossible. No matter their level. For Illusion I needed to use another mod that supplied Training Dummies to practice against, and still it took a lot of time.
Leveling speed is another baffling design choice, Illusion gives next to none experience for casting spells. At first I thought it's some kind of bug, but it appears this is the intended behaviour. I can swing a sword a few times and get few levels at the start, meanwhile illusion takes minutes to get a single level. Before I even hit level 10 in the skill.
That Requiem is biased towards melee builds is another problem. Illusion and Sneaking are simply not supported by the game. A common complain I read is that mid-high level opponents are simply unbeatable with Sneaking and Illusion, sneak attacks don't even work against Undead, Daedra and Dwemers. Meanwhile every other character can happily stride in whatever dungeon and fight everything head on.
The funniest part is that game appears to be extremely difficult - if not unbeatable - if one doesn't invest heavily into crafting - Alchemy, Smithing or Enchating. Alchemy specificaly appears to be used by basically every player, not using it in a playthrough is fiercely discouraged. In short, you can play Requiem in whatever way you want - but unless you play as a melee character that uses Alchemy you are going to suffer. As for Destruction/Conjuration characters I don't know, but it seems those magic schools level much faster than Illusion.
In short, so far my experiences were definitely not good, overal. At first I was overjoyed to be poor character that needs to start from scratch, but while the concept is alluring, the game is unable to support it. You can't even play as a thief, because not only are stolen items priced extremely low (you also needs perks in speech to get any reasonable prices), but the game has next to nothing to steal. I went through multiple houses in Riften and Whiterun and found only a few coin purses, with zero valuables. There are houses with expert locks in them, but considering Requiem doesn't change overhaul houses I don't think they would contain anything worth stealing.
I'm annoyed. I spent a lot of time trying to get my mod list to work with Requiem, learning how the mod works and how to play, just to experience a mod that despite being in developement for years is unable to provice me with satisfying experience.
To make it worse, I saw a perk overhaul Adamant and other complementary mods developed by the same author, creating a consistent overhaul of the game from difficulty of enemies, minimal level for enemies, to distinct strengths for races. Basically, Requiem-light, but one that attempts to work with Skyrim's original design to improve it, instead of bashing head against the wall, hoping to achieve anything.Not to mention incredibly more flexible in moding. I will give Requiem one more day of playing and decide it's an experience worth pursuing, but I have low hopes.
.
Lemming42
Arcane
It's true, the problem with things like Requiem is that they assume that slapping a bunch of more "hardcore" RPG mechanics onto a game that's designed as a free-flowing action game will suddenly make it better. You might as well be forcing RPG stats on Half-Life and making Gordon's pistol do no fucking damage until he's killed forty marines. The game just isn't built for it and it feels bizarre.
It's not that grinding in Requiem is boring, and it can be superficially fun to unexpectedly get wrecked by like two Draugr early on in the game, but the problem is that the entire worldspace and all the core mechanics of Skyrim are designed around the player picking a direction, walking in it, and finding something fun. Bleak Falls Barrow is immediately visible when the player leaves the (terrible) starting sequence and the NPCs in the first village direct you to it; it's not meant to be some stupid-ass life-or-death battle against overwhelming odds where your weapons do no damage and you get out of breath after one swing.
It's the same flawed idea as survival mods, writ large. Skyrim is obviously not designed around the player having to lug around five cheese wheels to ram down their throat when a hunger indicator pops up. It adds nothing at all to the game. At best it's pointless busywork and a totally empty mechanic, at worst it's actively annoying. Why are people doing this to the game? Imagine if someone made a mod for Thief where Garrett must eat carrots and bathe in water every five minutes, or he becomes so hungry that he can't stand up and starts to smell of shit which makes all enemies 200% more alert. That latter one is an actual literal existing Skyrim mod.
The open world aspect and high moddability make Skyrim seem superficially appealing as a canvas for a much deeper game, but in the end trying to turn it into a """"hardcore"""" RPG isn't much different from the faceitious Thief and Half-Life examples I just gave. Next up: a Rainbow Six mod where the entire team have a BLADDER and BOWELS meter and you must manage their pissing and shitting ("alpha, go") as you take on the terrorists. Stupid.
I'm planning to go back to Skyrim again soon and I'll be looking deep into mods that improve on the design philosophy and gameplay loop of vanilla, rather than trying to awkwardly force the game into something it isn't meant to be and isn't designed for. You can, for example, find some mods that turn it into a more viable stealth game - which works, because the original game does offer stealth and several dungeons are actually built around it, with side-passages and NPCs having unique conversations with each other if they're unaware of the player's presence and so on.
It's not that grinding in Requiem is boring, and it can be superficially fun to unexpectedly get wrecked by like two Draugr early on in the game, but the problem is that the entire worldspace and all the core mechanics of Skyrim are designed around the player picking a direction, walking in it, and finding something fun. Bleak Falls Barrow is immediately visible when the player leaves the (terrible) starting sequence and the NPCs in the first village direct you to it; it's not meant to be some stupid-ass life-or-death battle against overwhelming odds where your weapons do no damage and you get out of breath after one swing.
It's the same flawed idea as survival mods, writ large. Skyrim is obviously not designed around the player having to lug around five cheese wheels to ram down their throat when a hunger indicator pops up. It adds nothing at all to the game. At best it's pointless busywork and a totally empty mechanic, at worst it's actively annoying. Why are people doing this to the game? Imagine if someone made a mod for Thief where Garrett must eat carrots and bathe in water every five minutes, or he becomes so hungry that he can't stand up and starts to smell of shit which makes all enemies 200% more alert. That latter one is an actual literal existing Skyrim mod.
The open world aspect and high moddability make Skyrim seem superficially appealing as a canvas for a much deeper game, but in the end trying to turn it into a """"hardcore"""" RPG isn't much different from the faceitious Thief and Half-Life examples I just gave. Next up: a Rainbow Six mod where the entire team have a BLADDER and BOWELS meter and you must manage their pissing and shitting ("alpha, go") as you take on the terrorists. Stupid.
I'm planning to go back to Skyrim again soon and I'll be looking deep into mods that improve on the design philosophy and gameplay loop of vanilla, rather than trying to awkwardly force the game into something it isn't meant to be and isn't designed for. You can, for example, find some mods that turn it into a more viable stealth game - which works, because the original game does offer stealth and several dungeons are actually built around it, with side-passages and NPCs having unique conversations with each other if they're unaware of the player's presence and so on.
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2012
- Messages
- 26,201
Jarmaro It's not like melee builds are a walk in the park either until you get to specific perks that lift you up. Like rank 50 stuff.
I guess despite the fact that you can't master every damn skill in Requiem, you still have to use every trick in your book to get by at least until higher levels. Unless you're replaying in which case it is possible to moderately break the game with foreknowledge.
That is one way of putting it but on my first playthrough I didn't grind a damn thing, though I suppose there is a thin line of difference between grinding and carefully picking your fights.
I guess despite the fact that you can't master every damn skill in Requiem, you still have to use every trick in your book to get by at least until higher levels. Unless you're replaying in which case it is possible to moderately break the game with foreknowledge.
Yosharian
Magister
> Or dedicate one province of Skyrim to low level enemies that the player can have a reasonable place to start.
It's called Whiterun
I have played Requiem many times and while the start is tough, it's never required grinding mindlessly in the way you describe.
It's ok to admit that the mod isn't for you and that you require an easier start, that doesn't mean the mod doesn't work, it just means it's not for you
> I spent a lot of time trying to get my mod list to work with Requiem
Nobody cares. There are plug and play modlists that take minutes to install, if you choose to make your own list then that's your problem, don't cry about it
> Bleak Falls Barrow is immediately visible when the player leaves the (terrible) starting sequence and the NPCs in the first village direct you to it; it's not meant to be some stupid-ass life-or-death battle against overwhelming odds where your weapons do no damage and you get out of breath after one swing.
"Waagh BFB is too hard now"
It's called Whiterun
I have played Requiem many times and while the start is tough, it's never required grinding mindlessly in the way you describe.
It's ok to admit that the mod isn't for you and that you require an easier start, that doesn't mean the mod doesn't work, it just means it's not for you
> I spent a lot of time trying to get my mod list to work with Requiem
Nobody cares. There are plug and play modlists that take minutes to install, if you choose to make your own list then that's your problem, don't cry about it
> Bleak Falls Barrow is immediately visible when the player leaves the (terrible) starting sequence and the NPCs in the first village direct you to it; it's not meant to be some stupid-ass life-or-death battle against overwhelming odds where your weapons do no damage and you get out of breath after one swing.
"Waagh BFB is too hard now"
Yosharian
Magister
If you play with the right mindset, BFB is actually a brilliant dungeon now instead of a fucking mindless face roll like it was in vanilla.
Last time I played, I measured my character's power by how far I could get into the dungeon.
Initially it was a challenge to kill the first pack of bandits.
Then I made it further in, using a trap I found to kill the mindless undead that I encountered.
Eventually it was too tough and I had to come back later.
This is far more interesting than BFB being a fucking cake walk that your character completes with ease minutes after he enters the game world.
Last time I played, I measured my character's power by how far I could get into the dungeon.
Initially it was a challenge to kill the first pack of bandits.
Then I made it further in, using a trap I found to kill the mindless undead that I encountered.
Eventually it was too tough and I had to come back later.
This is far more interesting than BFB being a fucking cake walk that your character completes with ease minutes after he enters the game world.
Adamant is made by simonmagus, Requiem is made by probablymanuel and assorted modders.
As for the rest of the post - i agree. The biggest problem and gripe with requiem development is that it looks like the dev team was torn between deciding whether make the mod "vanilla plus" with sticking to vanilla game while painfully trying to fit the systems like trying to fit square into triangle hole, or between making a mod that deviate from vanilla and introduce new stuff[short swords, battle staffs, dwemer katanas lol]. If they aim for realistic theme, they should had definitely added nordwarua or vaultman armors and weapons, double handed warhammers and maces, trade and barter, trade routes, there's basically MANY stuff in skyrim that they could had improved, had they deviated from this stupid "vanilla plus" mindset, which they already abandoned and abandoning even more[katanas and wakizashis added just recently].
Utgard-Loki
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 1,781
does requiem finally cover dragonborn, or does it still need the awful third party patch?
It still needs the awful third party patch which is completely unbalanced.
Jarmaro
Liturgist
It has nothing to do with difficulty, and it's stupid to say it does. A difficult game provides a challenge in gameplay or game mechanics that you need to overcome, either by becoming a more skilled player or getting better at coming up with appropriate solutions to problems. Requiem is not intended to be more difficult, and even the mod description says so:
I have no problems with difficulty at all, and I appreciate how Requiem wants to tackle the problem by adding new mechanics and combat system, not just mindlessly increasing numbers. But it does not mean that it is implemented in a reasonable way. Requiem boasts itself to be a 'Role-Playing' overhaul, but the decisions needed to progress at the start and lack of environment to do so in a reasonable way stand in opposition to role-play. I don't need to be able to go anywhere from the start, but the problem is I don't have anywhere to go.
Just a week ago I finished a 50h+ playthrough of Morrowind, my first throughout one, and was genuinely surprised to see how the game takes great effort at every step to be sure the player doesn't stumble danger by accident. Almost every single NPC you will meet is going to give you advice or guide you towards area or people that will provide you with training and quests, a path to progress. Requiem does neither. It takes Skyrim's leveled world, alters it, and doesn't give anything in return.
Requiem doesn't need to be easier. It needs a rework of an early game through adding to the world more quests and NPCs that provide reasonable challenges in the early game, allowing the player to organicaly progress from weaker enemies to stronger ones. Not force him to cheese fights or look around for mudcrabs.
Why isn't there an NPC in Whiterun (or every large city, considering Live Another Live should be the base to think from) that does a mock-fight with you to raise your skills? A woman with fucking rat problem that asks you to get rid of them? If a game was deisgned with Requiem in mind, you would get that sort of quests, likely with an information for which levels that quest is appropriate for. But it isn't, resulting in a player banging his head against the wall, hoping to progress.
I have a suspicion that Requiem gets much better once you get past the early hurdles, but even if that is the case then everything I said about the early game still stands - if a game doesn't want to use scaling then it should alter the world in ways to complement the deleveled design. That the author of the mod hasn't done that in years speak volumes about his mindset.
To look yet again at the mod description:
I played every single game on that list and any other person that also did should be aware of how those games were designed. Gothic stands as a shining beacon of perfect open-world RPG design that has never been surpassed. You can explore most of the map from the start yet it still provides a high-level challenge for appropriately strong character. But at no point will a character struggle with ideas how to progress, same in Witcher, Deus Ex, Baldur's Gate or Dark Souls. Especially Dark Souls, that has a clear path of locations the player is supposed to progress through. Requiem doesn the opposite.
To claim inspiration from Morrowind is unhinged, as they took its biggest design flaw - reversed progression system, to progress you need to succeed at an action (failing doesn't give you experience), whether it is a weapon swing or spell cast, but to succeed you need a skill level high enough to have a chance to do that, resulting in a progression that gets faster the better you are. Going from level 5 to 30 in Morrowind is almost impossible, meanwhile going from 75 to 100 is a breeze, organicaly developing through gameplay.
If you try to lockpick in Requiem, you will notice you don't get experience from breaking a lockpick. It reeks of mindless copying of Morrowind's mechanics without any sense of comprehension why they were there or their contextual implementation. It's baffling that a person that created such a large mod is unaware of basics of game design. "Trying to fit the systems like trying to fit square into triangle hole" is an apt way to put that. For all the flaws of Level-scaling, Skyrim worked well with it, in comparison to Oblivion's disaster. Anyone that sumbled upon a Dragon Priest in Skyrim knows that they are tough opponents. That's because they are high-level enemies that cannot be randomly tackled at every opportunity, instead requiring the player to already be a developed character.
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I might have worded it incorrectly, what I meant is that the author of Adamant has a series of complementary mods that complete his vision and philosophy for ovehauling Skyrim, removing the exploits and improving on the vanilla experience. Yes, they appear somewhat 'numbery', but seem to have a coherent vision.
Aetherius - A Race Overhaul
Mundus - A Standing Stone Overhaul
Mysticism - A Magic Overhaul
Adamant - A Perk Overhaul
Arena - An Encounter Zone Overhaul
Blade and Blunt - A Combat Overhaul
Scion - A Vampire Overhaul
Manbeast - A Werewolf Overhaul
Apothecary - An Alchemy Overhaul
Pilgrim - A Religion Overhaul
Thaumaturgy - An Enchanting Overhaul
Hand to Hand - An Adamant Addon
I have not yet played any of those mods, but just from the descriptions I can see the author knows what he's doing, not trying to brute-force Skyrim into a game it isn't and cannot be without significant alterations, instead working with the existing systems to improve them and provide richer, more nuanced experience. Arena mod in particular sets minimum level for certain enemies, like draugrs and vampires, so that the player cannot tackle them from the start. It isn't de-levelled experience by any means, but obviously the author is aware of what Skyrim is and what it isn't.
I heard that Requiem has special boss fights, and while I haven't seen any yet I'm sure that's a great idea that would be great to add to that list of mods, either by the author of Adamant in the future or by another mod.
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