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Incline Indie Pokemon

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by Dreaad, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. Dreaad Arcane

    Dreaad
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    If you are the type of person who enjoys Pokemon then this is :incline:
    If not .... well .... :deadhorse:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonInsurgence/

    This thing is well in it's beta, with built in options for running challenges Nuzlocke, Egg etc. Almost all the best features from the official games, all in one package. People also going on about a more mature storyline, but honestly I could care less about that, more challenging ... I guess you could call it encounter design... on the other hand would be awesome.

    Runs on your PC.

    Debatable if a giant law suit comes crashing down to ruin the fun, but I doubt it's possible as long as it remains a strictly non profit project.

     
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  2. Avellion Erudite

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    Does it have multiplayer?

    Does it allow me to name my party after female reproductive Organs. I could name 5 of my pokemon in Alpha Sapphire, but after that I hit a stump. Any more I could think of had been blocked by Nintendo. Resulting in well, an incomplete team.
     
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  3. hoverdog dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive Developer

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    This is certainly interesting. I am raging hard at not being able to play the latest installment on my PC. Fucking 3ds bullshit
     
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  4. Dreaad Arcane

    Dreaad
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    It's been going publicly for almost a year, I think it's safe to say that Nintendo will try avoid a clash unless they start trying to make money of it. It is unlikely to make a dent in their sales really, especially since it's using sprites rather than new gen crappy 3d.
     
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  5. Avellion Erudite

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    Yup.

    Nintendo only tends to be bothered by stuff like this if they try to make money. From what I have seen, that is where they draw the line.

    Otherwise, they just see it as free marketing.
     
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  6. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    It's a stillborn, making it in RPGMaker XP makes it a dead product right out of the box. No portability, no multiplayer, heavily limited by the engine.
     
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  7. Dreaad Arcane

    Dreaad
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    I would agree RPGMaker is horrible. Except in this case, it does have multiplayer, the engine limits are in no way an issue for pokemon mechanics and I have never been interested in portability for video games.
     
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  8. Avellion Erudite

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    So I decided to give it a shot.

    I must say, the gameplay is typical pokemon. If that is good or bad is up to the person. Of course, I do not mind Pokemon's battle system. So no issues here.

    However, the big killer for this game is the atmosphere. Something about the character sprites feels really off, and the artstyle doesnt seem terribly consistent (sometimes you see hugely different artstyles used in the same screen), not to mention the blood droplets that looked like roses. The tone is in a huge conflict with the typical tone of the rest of the series and feels so out of place. In the first 10 minutes I saw murder, brainwashing, killing, using pokemon to kill other human beings, cults, human sacrifice, summoning of dark gods. These are not bad things in themselves, but it feels out of place in the pokemon universe.

    Has potential, but should have been its own IP.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  9. jcd Punished JCD Patron

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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Bubbles In Memoria
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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  10. AW8 Arcane

    AW8
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    Always liked Pokemon, but ever since I've passed the age of 10 I've been bothered by the low levels of enemy Pokemon. There's no use for tactical non-damaging moves since the final boss is going to have Pokemon in the level 60 range, and, well, the level cap is almost double that.

    Sure, overleveling is possible in all RPG's, but in Fallout 2 and KotOR 2 you can blow up clusters of enemies with a rocket launcher and jump from enemy to enemy and kill them in one hit with the lightsaber, respectively. Which is a lot more fun than to spam Flamethrower against opponents 40 levels beneath you.

    There's Battle Tower, but those things aren't really part of the gameworld - not to mention the sudden jump to where every Pokemon is level 100.

    Now these guys are making their own Pokemon game. Are they filling the gameworld with opponent Pokemon that range all the way to level 100? Or do they settle with implementing Pokemon al-Qaeda, for that mature storyline?
     
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  11. set Cipher

    set
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    AW8, they've only been making pokemon games easier, too. The most challenging ones are maybe Gold/Silver and Red/Blue (unless you know how to exploit the games anyway). How many trainers in the latest iteration of pokemon even have six pokemon on their team that aren't magikarp?

    Pokemon is great as a tactical base, but yeah none of the encounter design really lets you experience the depth of its offerings in single player. And of course legendary pokemon and other bullshit pokemon (cough Landorus-T cough) make it such that only 10% of fully evolved pokemon are viable competitively.
     
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  12. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    The solution would be to take pokemon combat system, drop the current pokemons and start from scratch. Every time someone has done that, they've fucked it up by either choosing the wrong platform (RPGMaker, PHP, Hacked Rom) or slapping monetized or grindy retardo acquisition mechanics (see any commercial clone).

    It'd be awesome to sit the community, slap the theme out of them and make a new game with difficulty and competitive multiplayer. People has been craving an online competitive JRPG/TCG for decades and today they only get Heartstone and popamolified alikes.
     
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  13. Avellion Erudite

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    I would argue that HG/SS was slighlty more challenging, due to higher enemy pokemon levels all around. Fuck you Lance and your pokemon 10 levels higher than me who proceeded outspeeding and instaggibbing my entire team.

    That said, I brofisted you for the second part. Pokemon has a great tactical base, but currently nothing in the single player campaign really encourages you to fully utilize the mechanics. Sadly it is not just pokemon either, far too many RPGs are designed so that you can beat the game without even understanding any of the finer elements to the battle system, even on the highest difficulty. As much as I love Divinity: Original Sin, the game could have supported even harder modes of gameplay. Thankfully, it looks to me like this is what they are goingto be doing with Hardcore mode. Back to pokemon, in Gen 6, I refuse to use megaevolutions and legendaries. And it is kinda insulting how they handed you out a legendary for free in ORAS (Latios/Latias). I also try to avoid as many trainer battles as possible, which has resulted in my pokes being roughly 5 levels lower than most enemies in mandatory battles. I really wish they would stop with the legendary crap, each generation does not need 6 new legendaries, at least X and Y they toned down the number of legendaries somewhat.

    Why do they even need to be strong, just let the legendaries be "trophies" for you to collect.
     
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  14. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    Nice. I've been following Pokémon Eevee Edition for a while but development is pretty slow (two years ago it was version 0.50, iirc)

    I doubt Nintendo gives a shit at this point, Twitch Plays Pokémon had thousands of people playing emulated games over the internet and Big N just enjoyed the free publicity.

    Well, the enemy AI gets better with each generation, and in remakes they're given less shitty movesets. Obviously doesn't compare to battling a real person, but it's definitely improving.

    In the meantime, people like this guy make things a bit more interesting.

    I just run away from random battles. Game flows much quicker and you rarely overlevel enemy trainers, which are more interesting fights anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  15. JohnTheRevelator Arcane

    JohnTheRevelator
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    They're using RPG Maker because of this: http://pokemonessentials.wikia.com/wiki/Pokémon_Essentials_Wiki
    Lots of work already done, essentially.

    Hey, I even took stab at it myself. I still have files and made buncha screenshots just for you Codex:codexisfor:.

    Idea was to make it more open than your usual Pokemon game. If you go deep into forest with weak team you're gonna have a bad time. I also wanted to add bunch of quests. Like collecting bounties on criminals on the run etc.

    I also wanted to make big changes to Gyms. First of all I would turn them into actual places of training. You could pay small sum to spar (you could pick what kind of EV you want to train), various gyms would also specialize in different stats and offer special training (not just to anyone mind you) that boosts your IV's.
    There would be regular tournaments running where you'd fight randomized opponents kind of like in Battle Tower, if you managed to beat all opponents you'd be allowed to challenge gym representative and chance to get a gym badge.
    Gym Leaders would be some hardcore mofos that don't fight just anyone, that would be late game stuff. Also gym specializations wouldn't be something silly like everyone uses same type of pokemon so you can go in with hard elemental counter and mop the floor.

    Pokemans (open)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Example of one repeatable mini-quest I made:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Guy will lead you to enclosed farm area, with buncha randomized pokemans walking around (based on day and time of day and random roll, sometimes there is more, sometimes less, sometimes special stronger ones appear, there was also supposed to be some speciul rare pokeman that doesn't appear anywhere else showing up sometimes behind a fence (you could get to him with rock smash).

    You have to bump into them to start a fight. They do little jump animation with dust and everything.

    [​IMG]

    Then fight starts. Ofc pokeman master like myself had no trouble beating Caterpie.

    [​IMG]

    If you manage to beat it overworld sprite will disappear.
    Once you're done you can talk to fat guy.

    [​IMG]

    And he will pay you based on amount and quality of pokemans you killed (special stronger bosses net more money ofc), if you kill nothing you get nothing.

    [​IMG]

    If you get beaten and teleport to your house/pokemon center (if you visited it before) you can still claim due payment at entrance. It will go on cooldown so you can't just grind it ad nauseam.



    BTW here is example of about 75% of first big city:
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]


    It's never gonna get finished though. I pretty much lost all interest in project once I figured out how to do all that stuff I wanted and only thing left was gigantic amount of work ... so buncha kids can have some fun for few hours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  16. Avellion Erudite

    Avellion
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    I did the same, once I realized I was not playing Final Fantasy 5 and there is no brave sword getting weaker every time I flee.

    See pokemon;
    If (caught==true){
    run;
    }
    else{
    weaken pokemon;
    do while(caught==false){
    throw pokeball;
    }
    }
     
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  17. set Cipher

    set
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    The AI in official pokemon games is still terrible. Trainers I think use zero lookahead. Actually, I think they do very little actual lookup. I'm sure a lot of is is still totally randomized.

    If you think about it, there are a small subset of available actions on a turn-to-turn level: switch and the 4 moves your pokemon knows - that means you have at max 9 possible outcomes of a turn. And if you program a computer to lookup popular move pools it can pretty accurately guess what the opponent will do and predict perfect moves of opportunity. A scary good AI is possible for pokemon, and with lookahead you could get even crazier with ridiculous "perfect gauranteed win" scenarios from maybe as far away as 7-8 turns. Actually, 9^10 is maybe within reason if you figure out some kind of pruning algorithm. Would definitely make a single player game crazy fun (or crazy frustrating).

    I've always wanted to do it - but the restraining thing for me is: The most popular ways people play pokemon are showdown, the actual game, or much less so, on RPGmaker. Showdown is javascript, which I'm sure would suck at complex AI, and RPGmaker is ruby, which I don't know.
     
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  18. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    • Brofist Brofist x 1
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  19. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
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  20. set Cipher

    set
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    I don't think the trainers behave consistently enough for finite state machines to be involved, but I haven't exactly researched the games. They /feel/ totally random at times, unlike a human, who is often predictable.

    As for FSM, yeah conceptually, but in practice probably not? Maybe the original games used them, but I doubt it. You are dealing with a state machine to some extent either way, but it's not quite as academic I think as the name might imply.

    Ideally, you would not use FSM, as they can't remember moves the opponent has already used (well, they can to some extent indirectly, but only if you make them ridiculously complex - more complex than is really viable).
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
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  21. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    I don't believe they get as far as a turing machine or behavior tree. Randomness can exist in FSM too, they don't have to be fully deterministic, see Markov Chain.
     
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  22. jcd Punished JCD Patron

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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Bubbles In Memoria
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
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  23. pakoito Arcane Patron

    pakoito
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    You can do a lot of things, I was thinking about the current implementation. AFAIK/IMHO the ones I played (Gen 1 and 2) were mostly non aware.
     
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  24. jcd Punished JCD Patron

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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Bubbles In Memoria
    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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
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  25. set Cipher

    set
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    940
    Well, there are only 4 moves at most and if all 4 moves are powerful moves and if the moves are chosen randomly there is a pretty good chance for a purely random AI to do pretty well in SP. They also have the advantage of being random - you cannot counter them with intelligence, just by trying your best.
     
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