Indie RPG pricing

[Grimlorn]

It's really tough to say. Maybe around $20 at release and then come down after 3-6 months. Exposure is more important in my opinion. If no one knows about your product and it's an Indie, I don't think most people are going to want to shell out $25 on a chance the game might be good.

Another thing is, you've got Steam and GOG and they do all these sales where they sell the old classics for a few bucks and I know those are incredibly popular. They give old games people might have missed exposure too.

If you do 100k at $5 that's $500,000. But if you put the price too high at say $25 and only do like 10k copies, you make less money and have a much smaller fanbase aware of your product and existence. I don't envy the guys who have to price point their Indie games.

 

[7hm]

The market provides boundaries. For computer games those are from free to about 70$. For indies they're free to about 40$. There is no shame in being at the high end of he boundary.

If you sell underworld for 5$ a tenth of the codex will buy it and half those people will have paid far less than they were willing to pay. You would be stupid to do so.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

No offense, but if you think that 15$ is too much for an indie game, an indie developer would be stupid to target you. You're the lowest common denominator that gets picked up once the target market is tapped out. Also the idea that there is no distribution cost is a common one and its fucking ridiculous. The distribution cost is he removal of a customer for less than the max you could have got out of that customer. If you are willing for 5$ to someone who would otherwise be willing to pay 15$, you are losing 10$. Its hard to know when that happens, but if you drop your pants on price right away I guarantee its happening. Vogel was right. Games have value and customers are willing to pay for that. At the same time he did bend on his pricing when he got on steam and went after a completely different market.

-You may be right , maybe I am not the target... But heres the thing. With GOG, Steam (and some of their amazing sales) D2D, Big Lots (seriously, great PC buys there .) there is a ton of games at the price point where I usually purchase . I also have Console systems which I buy games at pawn Shops for that same point- When I DO buy an indie game (and I buy quite a few) it has to be competitive with other products which are similar in price (what I am used to paying)

-I am not rich and money is tight. I have a pretty strict gaming budget and I love to game. I am forgoing buying games for the next 2 months so I can buy Grimoire at the tier I want...Because I am hyped for that game.

So I may not be the target demographic but if its something I really want I will pay much higher than average. So I am just offering my opinion as to what I would pay for this theoretical game I know nothing about.

 

[Overboard]

The distribution cost is he removal of a customer for less than the max you could have got out of that customer. If you are willing for 5$ to someone who would otherwise be willing to pay 15$, you are losing 10$. Its hard to know when that happens, but if you drop your pants on price right away I guarantee its happening. Vogel was right. Games have value and customers are willing to pay for that. At the same time he did bend on his pricing when he got on steam and went after a completely different market.

This is also retarded. When your game has been out for a while and people aren't buying it, you still think you're going to get that mythical single customer willing to pay triple the optimum price point?

The key point is 'drop your pants on price right away', which is what is clouding your judgement. Somehow appropriate pricing is personally offensive to you, instead of a method to obtain maximum profits.

No offense, but if you think that 15$ is too much for an indie game, an indie developer would be stupid to target you.

A developer who posted here has already mentioned that if he dropped his pricing by half, interested customers would think that the game was only half as good. It appears you share the same degree of business sense.

 

[7hm]

You know who else uses that model? Companies that want their products to hold value. Apple. Luxury vehicles. Designer clothing. Shit doesn't go on sale. Knockoffs, returns, yes. But never the real deal. You never notice that?

Unlike you, I have actually sold real goods and services. The race to the bottom will only hurt you in the end.

E: also, obviously you change your price as time goes on. Sales are more of a thing in games and there is not a lot of shame in occasional promos or bundle deals. They have to be super rare though. And yeah if you're at 3x the optimal price you're probably too high, but you only find hat out by starting there. You can't start below it and move up.

 

[Overboard]

Another point, in the survey the option is: Low. Indie RPGs aren't worth more than $10

This is erroneous. It isn't about some sort of intrinsic worth, it's about what people will pay for it.

 

[kazgar]

A factor that people overlook is the fact that the internet allows for reach far beyond a single country now, so a US $20 price, while not much for someone in the US can be far more for people elsewhere, and everyone's opinions on what constitutes a fair price will be based on local price points and local comparisons (ie what else can I get or do I need to get for the price of this game) There's no real way around it without differential prices which leads to all sorts of butthurt and people trying to get around it, case in point steam pricing issues and amazon requiring us addresses for electronic sales, both with workarounds

felipepepe 's suggestion for multiple tiers also makes sense here, as new customers and possibly whole new markets may come on board at different price points, though you may need to spend more on marketing over time to re-announce or newly announce to let those people know. "Hey, its not a whole days wage now, buy my game!"

 

[Grimlorn]

You know who else uses that model? Companies that want their products to hold value. Apple. Luxury vehicles. Designer clothing. Shit doesn't go on sale. Knockoffs, returns, yes. But never the real deal. You never notice that?

Unlike you, I have actually sold real goods and services. The race to the bottom will only hurt you in the end.

E: also, obviously you change your price as time goes on. Sales are more of a thing in games and there is not a lot of shame in occasional promos or bundle deals. They have to be super rare though. And yeah if you're at 3x the optimal price you're probably too high, but you only find hat out by starting there. You can't start below it and move up.

What about marketing? You market your game to be released at a specific date, people are aware of it but think it costs too much so they don't buy it. You lower the price a month later or have some sort of sale but the majority of the people interested in your product have forgotten your game and have no interest in it.

I think whatever industry you're in is probably different from the gaming industry. People complain about having to pay an extra $10 for PC games. ($50 to $60) You think the majority are going to want to overpay for an Indie? You're not going to have the time to keep lowering your price unless you have a way of continually marketing your game and getting news out on sales and lower prices.

 

[Overboard]

You know who else uses that model? Companies that want their products to hold value. Apple. Luxury vehicles. Designer clothing. Shit doesn't go on sale. Knockoffs, returns, yes. But never the real deal. You never notice that?

Unlike you, I have actually sold real goods and services. The race to the bottom will only hurt you in the end.

Apple has a large number of fans who are willing to purchase their goods at premium prices. Luxury vehicles are marquee brands, and hold prestige. The same goes for designer clothing. You're trying to equate these marquee brands with S&S?

I worked as a salesman before too but your ad hominem gets you nowhere, since I have run and sold successful businesses. If you get uptight about pricing, you're going to be looking at a warehouse full of goods you can't shift.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Overboard Impulse buys happen right away, or not at all. Otherwise they aren't impulse. During that 1 hour they happened not at all, and dozens of people were on the site. It wasn't about word of mouth, the visitors were there (which was a pure coincidence), from broken forum which I knew nothing about until then. This whole thing was an accident, as I mentionned earlier. It was not a sale, and i did not post there. Someone else did.

I do sort of agree with felipepepe but it is missing the exposure factor. You can only sell tons at a low price further down the product cycle if tons of people know about you. If only a few hundred (I suppose Codex readership is anywhere from there to a couple thousand but i could be wrong), lowering the price to $5 does not expand that readership. And if media channels choose to ignore your product (this isn't final in my situation, but could still be the way it turns out), you make $1000 off a 5 year + $20 000 investment.

Digital distribution does not mean low distribution costs, and this is where I completely disagree with felipepepe and Overboard. The only real upside is the absence of printing and shipping costs. But the advertising and transaction fees are... Let's not go there.

 

[kazgar]

Overboard, inventory and warehousing don't equate in a digital sphere, it costs the game creator nothing to keep the game in storage and sell at a premium (ie spiderweb until recently)

 

[felipepepe]

Most "decent" indie games seem to always launch at $15-10, complex ones like Grimrock at $15, roguelikes and flash stuff like Dredmor and FTL at $10, to later reduce to $5... It's hard to take S&S, KotC or Frayed Knights at $20 seriously... FFS, Wasteland 2 & Shadowrun were at $15 on kickstarter, that's the reality you're up against man!

Besides, one problem with S&S is the production value... there is no escaping it, even thought it's a massive improvement over the original version, it still has that "amateur" look, especially the way the UI looks and feels, it's hard to prove to anyone it's worth more than Grimrock. Frayed Knight also suffers from that, it looks like a alpha from a early 3D game, like how Mount & Blade was ages ago... KotC looks pro, but like a late 80's game, and I can buy 4 80's RPGs at GOG with $20, so why care?

 

[7hm]

I get what you guys are saying. That you don't want to pay 20$ for a game. And that's OK. But I'm not sure you get my point.

An indie developer has nothing to lose by pricing their game high and offering an extensive demo, but he has a lot (of money) to lose by pricing it low. You can never recover the money you failed to earn on a purchase. Ever. That money is gone. The customer spent it on other things and already owns your product. You can however recover money that you didn't earn because your first price was too high for an individual customer at a particular time. That money is still there, and you will be able to get some of it at a later date, if not all of it.

This is especially true of games like Underworld which will not achieve he critical mass where he first impression combined with low price could push you over the top. Its going to be a grind for most indies. A long slow slog of sales.

Games arent a magical product that obey their own laws of economics. The people who sell them just don't really know what they're doing. Especially Indies. (When do you see Blizzars titles on sale? You don't. Those guys know their stuff).

E: typing on a fucking phone man. Jesus this is annoying. Sorry for the massive number of errors guys.

 

[Grimlorn]

What about getting on Steam and GOG? Aren't they interested in games that sell for $10 that they can put on sale for about $5? What about simply getting a ton of people to play your game, build a fanbase, maybe lose some money, but charge a little more on the sequel? Seems like in small businesses you're going to lose some money over time at the beginning.

 

[Overboard]

Charles, the thing is that lots of people have read about your game on here, you think that a price reduction wouldn't get them purchasing? This place is your target market, and if you can't shift that many copies, perhaps there's something wrong.

Overboard, inventory and warehousing don't equate in a digital sphere, it costs the game creator nothing to keep the game in storage and sell at a premium (ie spiderweb until recently)

Apologies, that analogy was not ideal. What I mean is that you have a product that can be sold but isn't, which is a waste. While it doesn't cost anything to keep in storage, there's no guarantee that retaining a high price is going to mean higher profits over a longer period of time, say 5 years as opposed to reducing the price and increasing profits for the next year. Spiderweb was also in an ideal situation since it didn't have any real competition.

 

[felipepepe]

I do sort of agree with felipepepe but it is missing the exposure factor. You can only sell tons at a low price further down the product cycle if tons of people know about you. If only a few hundred (I suppose Codex readership is anywhere from there to a couple thousand but i could be wrong), lowering the price to $5 does not expand that readership. And if media channels choose to ignore your product (this isn't final in my situation, but could still be the way it turns out), you make $1000 off a 5 year + $20 000 investment.

Point is, why is your exposure low? Maybe no one took you seriously at $20, maybe there are too few people playing talking about your game. Reducing prices isn't a magical solution, but it's a way to try and change things. A larger audience could help you at Steam Greenlight, and it's not like keeping the $20 price tag will solve your problem either...

Digital distribution does not mean low distribution costs, and this is where I completely disagree with [USER=7705]felipepepe and Overboard. The only real upside is the absence of printing and shipping costs. But the advertising and transaction fees are... Let's not go there.

You advertise S&S? Where/why? I don't think it's the kind of game that would benefit from a banner or a google ad, especially at $20... and for transaction fees, well, they only happen when you sell, so it's easy to predict and work your profit around.

When do you see Blizzars titles on sale? You don't. Those guys know their stuff

Starcraft II was released in Brazil at ~$15 dollars, with a keycode that expired after 3 months. Blizzard know their stuff, they know they can't sell for everyone at full price, so they went beyond and found a way to release it at a lower price in some places.

 

[7hm]

Charles has the same competition Vogel did. Other indies making other types of games and major developers making other types of games. Nobody is making turn based M style games except for on handhelds or crazy anime games.

There is nobody else doing this type of game right now. If you want it, he's it.

Also, is the Codex really the target market? Seems to me you'd aim at an older crowd than the codex seems to have. The people that crpgaddict has for readers.

The problem you all see to have is that you think there's this magical mass group of people who want to play this style of game but only for a lower price. Now none of us have hard data on it but i really doubt it. This game is pretty fuckin niche.

 

[Excidium]

When do you see Blizzars titles on sale?

Whenever there's a new expansion coming out.

 

[Davaris]

What about getting on Steam and GOG? Aren't they interested in games that sell for $10 that they can put on sale for about $5? What about simply getting a ton of people to play your game, build a fanbase, maybe lose some money, but charge a little more on the sequel? Seems like in small businesses you're going to lose some money over time at the beginning.

I don't know about GOG, but Steam only want games that are already popular.


As for this survey it looks kind of funny to me, because if there is no demand for a game, it isn't going to sell at any price.

Before anyone makes a game they intend to sell, I would suggest they find out if there demand for it. This is why Kickstarter is so great. It is a survey tool, where people must put their money, where their mouth is.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

What game are we talking about? People are saying "this game" and such but I thought this was a more theoretical discussion.

 

[7hm]

When do you see Blizzars titles on sale?

Whenever there's a new expansion coming out.

Fair enough. So in expectation of larger sales from people they didn't get the first time. Presumably the new buyer will also get the full price expansion. Point is, its pretty damn rare.

On a more general note about indie pricing. I thought grim rock was the right price. Being on steam forces downward pressure. They could have been 5 dollars higher but whatever. Torchlight 2 was priced too low. That was a huge mistake. That game had buzz and was good. When all you read on forums is: its a great deal and it just came out, you fucked up the pricing and went too low.

 

[Gragt]

Steam also seems happy if the game can potentially have a lot DLC.

 

[laclongquan]

Damn it! I wanna vote High. There's little demand but the demand is motivated. with an aside "and rely on the words of mouth from pirate to boost the popularity."

But the damn mouse slip and I pick 10 bucks.

 

[Charles-cgr]

What game are we talking about? People are saying "this game" and such but I thought this was a more theoretical discussion.

It was, but people are cheating. :D They're talking about indie RPGs in existence like frayed Knights, KOTC..., the last of which being this MM clone. Sorry this is turning into shameless self-promotion of my overpriced clunky game...

felipepepe Advertising on facebook proved somewhat efficient. I looked up other things for further down the line.

Keeping my price tag might not solve my problem but slashing it, counting on that alone to get people talking about it more, is likely to make it worse. What you say about transaction fees is interesting. Working profit around a fixed percentage fee by doing what? Raising the price? Note that those percentages increase sharply for lower transactions.

Davaris That applies to the top half dozen KS RPG projects. A failed KS is like a failed launch. It can be due to a bad idea, no demand, bad tier pricing... Or lack of exposure. Or all of the above. KS is no better than preorders or postorders. Just have a look at the projects no one talks about totalling $400 out of $10 000. Also to have a small chance of success as an unknown you are required to have made considerable progress.

Yes, tis a tough nut to crack.

E: Rephrased.

 

[Mortmal]

The price is too high (by todays standard), i know some niche indie wargames are selling for over 60$ but i am not sure you will find your niche player base here ,codex isnt really the best place to advertise this game, lot of hypocrisy around here, they pretend to like old school type of games but are only really awaiting the new bioware and bethesda game. When it comes to more classic type of rpgs, there's no megathreads.You will easily notice the few people really enjoying those games, all of them posting in the deserted subforums as well.

You are not the only one to suffer of this, you can notice grimoire campaign isnt going too strong either, 3500$ and not moving. Classic games like dark heart of ukrul sold for 1000 copies back in their day so it would be reasonable to still sell the same amount today.Both of the games need serious advertising or at least a few link on forums .

Say i am an nostalgic old fart interested in retro gaming, mourning the old days ,ill pick a few abandonware sites and look if you did post there :

http://www.grospixels.com nope..

http://www.abandonia.com/fr/forum http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/forumdisplay.php?f=10 nope no sword and sorcery underworld..

http://forum.homeoftheunderdogs.net/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=03bad8c0efc75d7b5dbe982f6b379f10 not much activity, but still no charles.

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=forum/73 no.. still no mention of might and magic 2 clones.

I am googling might and magic clones, olderbytes doesnt appears on my search , maybe a lack of tags. It only redirect me to some obscure gaming forum, and yet even there in that thread theres no mention of your game:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/might-and-magic-clones.25599/

And theres probaly countless other sites for retro gamers, stop slacking charles !