Indie RPG pricing

[Johannes]

I think that paying $20 for an indie game is quite fucking much, because as we all know, people tend to think big developer = good quality.

It's not necessarily that they think so, but that they are willing to do more research into seeing what kind of game it is. There's a limited number of high profile RPGs being released, and if you're interested in RPGs you have some idea into what each game is like.

But something coming from out of nowhere, reading a quick reference of what kind of game it is, with mediocre graphics... There's a fuckton of shit out there, both old and new, and reading a single newspiece about something in a random place probably won't keep your interest to read more about it.
Just search for "indie rpg" and see if you find something that really catches your interest.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Underworld Gold is on sale at $4.95 for a couple weeks. We'll see how that goes

 

[almondblight]

I actually just saw your add on RPS, Charles-cgr. Didn't see word of the sale though. Will you be promoting it much? (ads, notifying different websites, etc.)

 

[Charles-cgr]

I actually just saw your add on RPS, Charles-cgr. Didn't see word of the sale though. Will you be promoting it much? (ads, notifying different websites, etc.)

I'll be sending emails early next week. I hope to see better reactions from the bigger sites (which would indicate that some didn't react at least in large part due to the pricing).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Underworld Gold is on sale at $4.95 for a couple weeks. We'll see how that goes

I'll check out the demo. Maybe I'll collect that amount of money in a few weeks if I'll find it interesting.

 

[artakserkso]

Awesome, been planning to get this for a while (love MM1 for all but the map-making, hoping this game will scratch the same kind of itch)! Thanks a lot, C!

Only KOTC left on my too-stingy-to-impulsebuy list...

 

[Charles-cgr]

Awesome, been planning to get this for a while (love MM1 for all but the map-making, hoping this game will scratch the same kind of itch)! Thanks a lot, C!

Only KOTC left on my too-stingy-to-impulsebuy list...

Hope you like it

Underworld Gold is on sale at $4.95 for a couple weeks. We'll see how that goes

I'll check out the demo. Maybe I'll collect that amount of money in a few weeks if I'll find it interesting.

If you like it and the sale ends before that PM me

 

[felipepepe]

BTW Charles-cgr, how where the results of the previous sale? And keep us informed on how this one goes too!

 

[Charles-cgr]

BTW Charles-cgr, how where the results of the previous sale? And keep us informed on how this one goes too!

I'll write something about the global pricing experience. The two sales will be complementary due to different durations and other factors. I'd rather take my time and hopefully not post something stupid

 

[Blaine]

In my opinion, somewhere between $10-20 should be appropriate for indie RPGs. I may personally be willing to pay more, but if you charge $60 a pop for an indie game, you'll probably sell a fraction of the copies you would at a $10-20 price point.

If an indie game can manage to sell just 50,000 copies at $10 per, that's $500,000... enough to pay five people $40,000 per year for two years, with $100,000 left over for expenses, overhead and the inevitable cut for worthless middle men. World of Goo sold hundreds of thousands of copies, so I'd imagine 50,000 is a fairly obtainable number if a game isn't shit.

 

[Naked Ninja]

50k sales is something only a tiny fraction of indies achieve.

Vogel averaged a bit over 5k before getting on steam/ipad, and that was after 15 years of building a fanbase. I'd imagine it's closer to 20k-30k now, with those portals, but priced at about half of what his titles were before, around $10.

People keep making this mistake when they estimate things, they base their expectations on what the exceptional cases achieve. The exceptions are just that, exceptions. Games like World of Goo and Braid are the indie equivalent of pop songs that go multi-platinum. You can't look at them and draw conclusions about what should be a reasonable expectation for other titles, not even if you thumbsuck an estimate of half or a sixth or whatever. Often, they're orders of magnitude different.

This blog has a number of indie sales statistics post-mortems filed under that label, you can get a better idea of the usual figures : link

 

[Blaine]

I know I'm basing my numbers (which are largely pulled out of my ass, no argument there) on exceptional indies rather than the average. That is intentional, and not a mistake at all. As I implied, more than a few indie games are shit, or at best, mediocre. Many of the games listed in that blog you linked to are a good example of this. I don't expect or want Sudoku clones or casual puzzlers to sell 50,000+ copies, although occasionally they do; on the other side of that same coin, sometimes a truly excellent indie tanks for whatever reason.

My point being that if the average indie game is mediocre and forgettable, as has been my experience, then from a certain point of view it's equally meaningless to base your numbers on that average. I'm not "attacking" indie games here, but the fact of the matter is that there is always chaff to separated from the wheat. Popularity doesn't always equate to quality, but anyone can create an indie game, and a lot of them are mediocre. Most people's work in life is mediocre. That's what the term means.

You mentioned Jeff Vogel, and I should note that I've been playing Spiderweb Software games for many years. I love most of the Spiderweb Software games, but they're extremely niche titles and their appeal has always been very limited. Do you mean 5k for each game, or 5k total? I've read some of his blog entries before, but it's been a long time since I have. 5k per game at $20 a pop seems quite appropriate. He's essentially a one-man development team, and if he spends two years developing one of his games which then sells 5k copies at $20 apiece, he's earned $50,000 per year for his work. That's more than a living wage. It's not as though he's spending tens of thousands of dollars on art or sound assets.

I'm as unhappy as the next guy when a deserving indie tanks or simply isn't very popular—don't get me wrong. I do however believe that basing your numbers on an ocean of mediocre titles is equally misguided. Somewhere in-between is much more appropriate.

 

[Davaris]

Vogel averaged a bit over 5k before getting on steam/ipad, and that was after 15 years of building a fanbase. I'd imagine it's closer to 20k-30k now, with those portals, but priced at about half of what his titles were before, around $10.

I remember seeing a comment by Vogel years ago, where he said his games sold well from the first one. Of course he was one of the first shareware RPG makers, so that would have been a big advantage. As for the picture of the game in the link, I can immediately see it wouldn't sell in the casual game space. Programmer art just cannot compete with professionally made games in the casual arena. If his games really are fun to play, then he needs to spend serious money to make money.

As for myself, I have come to the opinion the way to success, is to be prolific like Vogel is. Instead of obsessing on one game forever, make game after game, learn and improve with each title and build up a back catalog. Either that, or spend serious money and hire only the best people. In that case you have to be the kind of person, that feels comfortable taking big risks.

 

[Johannes]

Vogels blog on his sales, though it's from 2009 so it's not relevant to his current pricing strategy.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fi/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html

 

[Blaine]

Vogels blog on his sales, though it's from 2009 so it's not relevant to his current pricing strategy.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fi/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html

Ah yes, I read that blog post back when it was posted. It's probably exactly what I had in mind earlier.

In my view, he was and is doing quite well for himself, even if his sales haven't always been so impressive. By my estimate, he's turned out one game every fourteen or fifteen months since 1995... one of which was Avadon, but hey.

 

[Johannes]

By my count he's done 20 games including remakes, so actually less than a year per game on average.

 

[Saduj]

I think its a mistake for indie developers to sell their games too cheaply. If its a quality product that represents a significant investment of time and money, the dev shouldn't be afraid to charge a price that reflects this. I don't really see $20 as "expensive" for something that offers you over 10 hours of entertainment anyway (although prices are high where I am). And 10 hours is a small rpg. Plus, prices can always be lowered after a time.

 

[deuxhero]

I never buy ANY game for more than $30

 

[tuluse]

I think its a mistake for indie developers to sell their games too cheaply. If its a quality product that represents a significant investment of time and money, the dev shouldn't be afraid to charge a price that reflects this. I don't really see $20 as "expensive" for something that offers you over 10 hours of entertainment anyway (although prices are high where I am). And 10 hours is a small rpg. Plus, prices can always be lowered after a time.

I don't think anyone selling a digital good should be married to any price point. Start with a high price to get the early adopters and fans, then lower the price over time and keep sales up.

 

[Metro]

Moreover, I don't think anyone in this thread contended $20 was too expensive and is probably the ideal retail price to start from.

 

[Garbonzo]

Anything less than $5 is pointless. Why even bother working if that's all you charge for your work.

$10-20 seems to be the sweet spot for indie games depending on how big they are or how expensive it was to make.

Also, things like no-DRM add value to games if they go that route, and I am willing to pay more.

 

[Blaine]

Anything less than $5 is pointless. Why even bother working if that's all you charge for your work.

It's not how much you charge that's important, it's how much you make and whether or not you're happy with it/it's sustainable.

 

[Metro]

While I agree I think $5 or less is a pretty bad place to start assuming you provide a full sized game with a lot of content. $5 is for iOS ports and shitty 2 hour games.

 

[Saxon1974]

Yea I was suprised to see Charles is selling Swords and Sorcery on sale for 5$ until the end of January I think? I would imagine thats more of a PR exposure thing as opposed to making money. Having played some of the game seems like WAY to much work to only charge 5$ on.

 

[Metro]

I meant base price. I don't think $5 is a bad sale price for a game that's already been out for a while. In fact, I'd say it's pretty mandatory.