Spectral Pontifex
Guest
I backtracked through Lords like 20 times already so I guess I might as well get to the bottom of this right now and replicate my playthrough.
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Infinity Sea Series - Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity - Sharpe your way through a series of CYOA books!
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Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Alright, there must be something very specific about the route my character has taken, because now I am certain that such information was not revealed to him. It just suddenly switches the pronouns as the story progresses...
EDIT: Could someone tell me in a spoiler how it was revealed during his playthrough?
EDIT EDIT: Possibly I have not asked a question that leads to the reveal. I tend to not ask all questions if my character deems them as offensive or something. I read the code of Sabers and wrong question could lead to losing rep (at least with low charisma), so that's why I avoid just headlessly asking everything. It seems like the author did not think of this in this particular case.
EDIT: Could someone tell me in a spoiler how it was revealed during his playthrough?
EDIT EDIT: Possibly I have not asked a question that leads to the reveal. I tend to not ask all questions if my character deems them as offensive or something. I read the code of Sabers and wrong question could lead to losing rep (at least with low charisma), so that's why I avoid just headlessly asking everything. It seems like the author did not think of this in this particular case.
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Tyranicon
A Memory of Eternity
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One of the (many) faults of an otherwise excellent series is that the questions are not consistently presented and there's little indication whether a rather innocuous question would lose you rep or not.
However, if you side with the Queen against Wulfram, Garrett will eventually reveal at some point after your final dinner with Wulfram that she is actually one of the Queen's inner circle.
You'll says something like how that's improbable because the inner circle are all women, and which point she puts your hand on her boob.
Aghast!
You'll says something like how that's improbable because the inner circle are all women, and which point she puts your hand on her boob.
Aghast!
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Man, why does my playthrough refuse to show me this impeccable scene? I played through it AGAIN, before you answered and there's no fucking way it was revealed to me. And I tried to ask everything.
I chose the royal spy route. From what I read on Steam there should be a reveal no matter which royalist path you choose. My playthrough is cursed.
Tyranicon
A Memory of Eternity
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Like I said, the game is buggy. Maybe there's something wrong with your save file.
Like how
Welles dies in Guns, but she always shows up alive in Lords
and is now your enemy despite having barely any interaction, and all of them cordial.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Alright, I have read through the code and finally uncovered the terrifying truth. It's the most bizarre and random shit. Spoilers ahead:
The middle option is the culprit. Any other option checks if you are a spy and then triggers the revelation scene. For some reason - an oversight, I suppose - the middle option does check if you are a spy to show you the proper dialogue, but does not follow into the Garret scene. Instead, it defaults into the non-spy one.
I honestly thought choosing this answer is absolutely inconsequential. I only chose it because the first time I played, I wasn't sure if the other options would lock me into some path, so I choose the neutral answer...
I will be reporting this to Paul Wang.
Edit: Thank you, gentlemen, for helping to (hopefully) fix one of the few bugs remaining in the game.
The middle option is the culprit. Any other option checks if you are a spy and then triggers the revelation scene. For some reason - an oversight, I suppose - the middle option does check if you are a spy to show you the proper dialogue, but does not follow into the Garret scene. Instead, it defaults into the non-spy one.
I honestly thought choosing this answer is absolutely inconsequential. I only chose it because the first time I played, I wasn't sure if the other options would lock me into some path, so I choose the neutral answer...
I will be reporting this to Paul Wang.
Edit: Thank you, gentlemen, for helping to (hopefully) fix one of the few bugs remaining in the game.
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This. While consequences of my chocies were very reasonable in Sabres, and mostly reasonable in Guns, in Lords it too often felt as though I had no idea what was going to happen if I select option c over b. I'm guessing it might've had to do with the amount of tracked stats, and the author feeling like everything should impact everything else in some way.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
It's sad to know that Paul Wang does not get as much recognition and money from this as he should. Before he hid it, you could see that he makes around 700 dollars a month from Patreon. Other authors, who write more homosexual and lighthearted novels, easily make thousands of dollars a month.
If you would be so kind, please make sure to post a positive review on Steam and possibly even subscribe to his Patreon.
If you would be so kind, please make sure to post a positive review on Steam and possibly even subscribe to his Patreon.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
I've read through discussions on Steam and it seems everyone is a royalist. I hope the next installments show more of the darker side of the monarchy. I would like it to be more ambiguous.
I hope the next installments show more of the darker side of the monarchy. I would like it to be more ambiguous.Because at the moment Wulfram is basically painted as a traitor conspiring with foreign powers. Not to mention that the romance interests and Cazarosta, who is undoubtedly a very popular character, are all royalists too, so the player has little incentive to support Wulfram. On top of that, the queen and her buddies are basically feminists, which means that despite being absolutist monarchists, they attract even players who are more egalitarian. In this regard, Paul Wang has failed.
Who the hell supports Wulfram?
Hell, even the Antari serfs, who are taught to consider themselves inferior to bane-blooded lords, are portrayed as loyal, subservient, diligent, and brave. Meanwhile, your own people, who are arguably more "democratic" are shown to be whining little bitches.
Paul Wang is a liberal / leftist in real life so I feel pretty disappointed. I would really like more nuance. And I say all this as an imperialist, racist, and a supporter of aristocracy. It just isn't fun when the story is one-sided.
The story is already beyond Rubicon. I don't see how this one-sidedness could be undone easily, especially with regard to characters whom you know for a long time. It would not be so easy to introduce new Wulframite characters that would grow on you the same way established characters have done over a long period of time.
Who the hell supports Wulfram?
Hell, even the Antari serfs, who are taught to consider themselves inferior to bane-blooded lords, are portrayed as loyal, subservient, diligent, and brave. Meanwhile, your own people, who are arguably more "democratic" are shown to be whining little bitches.
Paul Wang is a liberal / leftist in real life so I feel pretty disappointed. I would really like more nuance. And I say all this as an imperialist, racist, and a supporter of aristocracy. It just isn't fun when the story is one-sided.
The story is already beyond Rubicon. I don't see how this one-sidedness could be undone easily, especially with regard to characters whom you know for a long time. It would not be so easy to introduce new Wulframite characters that would grow on you the same way established characters have done over a long period of time.
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Lithium Flower
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IMO the Wulfram v Crown conflict is more nuanced than how you view it. I like how it does not fit the typical "regressive monarchy vs liberal revolutionaries" mold.
Wulfram is a populist, and quite an earnest and principled one at that, who addresses very real and blatant issues. His proposed solutions, on the other hand, are a mixed bag and many of the people surrounding him are primarily interested in pushing their own agenda or strengthening the power of aristocracy at the expense of the royalty - but players who prefer decentralization might see the latter as a move in a positive direction, with formations like the Houseguard poised to replace the military and so on. Wulfram's faction is progressive on issues that benefit them (pushing towards industrialization) and reactionary towards changes that would strengthen the crown (army reform, including technological improvements thereof.)
Populist ideas/rhetoric is often such that it looks great at first glance and begins to fall apart when you examine it in detail. Perhaps reflecting this, apparently most players who started the series with Lords ended up favoring Wulfram. However, a returning player character who ended up disillusioned with the army or lacking connections might very well favor Wulfram as well. Overall, it seems like a fair and realistic portrayal of a populist political faction.
The King and Queen are ruthless reformers. Like Wulfram, Miguel identifies real issues within Tierra but said issues and his solutions are more far-sighted at the expense of the current generation. He was willing to commit to an incredibly ballsy, costly and prolonged war with Antar just to remove Tierra from its sphere of influence for good, he is willing to extend the incredibly precarious war economy to solidify the army reforms, and alienate Takara in order to replace Antar with Kian as the country's grain supplier. There is room to disagree with each individual issue but his temperament as a monarch seems pretty clear. He is not merely interested in preserving his status quo but is actively pushing the country in the direction he thinks would serve it in the long term, hence the broad progressivism on a number of issues. And if that means violating the spirit of the law (relentless use of veto against Wulfram's faction,) or the word of the law (all the royalist-aligned gangs running around burning wulframites) to make sure the pesky parliamentary system does not get in his way, he is willing to do that. Again, I think that this portrayal is more interesting than that of the stereotypical incest-brained hypertraditionalist monarch, while retaining a political ruthlessness and moral flexibility required to enact monarchical changes against an aristocracy and the age-old instability inherent to changes achieved unilaterally by an authoritarian power (being that the next person in line can use the same levers of power to easily overturn their predecessors reforms if it comes down to it, which is not as prevalent to changes achieved by ex. relatively more stable parliamentary institutions.) As a side note, I feel like it's ironic that a lot of monarchists Trad reactionary arch/peak/dome/sphere/semicircle/parabola/hexadron-conservative people etc seem to miss that the coolest monarchs were typically the reformist sort that had no issue bucking tradition when doing so was required, even to the point of transitioning the country away from monarchic rule.
Wulfram is not necessarily a Takaran agent anymore than the King is a Kian (Kianese?) agent. Tierra flirting with either of those two superpowers (as was almost certainly going to happen due to absence of Antari grain) would necessary pull the country into a proxy war with the other. The two factions simply chose their sides.
Now, the real issue, as I see it, and as acknowledged by the author, is as you mentioned - for returning players the NPC deck is heavily stacked in favor of the royalists. Btw he had a post-mortem for Lords of Infinity up on his blog where he goes over this point in detail and more. Sometimes I pretend that he is only writing to me and it makes me heart and prostate beat as one in a synchronised, life-affirming pulse. I talk to him a lot and I don't even mind that he stopped responding ever since the bitch woman who trespasses into my home started torturing me with some sort of new drug. Jokes on them, I will stop taking that shit soon, while continuing to help myself to the complimentary candies they lure me with, you know the ones that come in cool little bottles with the orange caps just like grandma used to have in her pantry yum yum
Wulfram is a populist, and quite an earnest and principled one at that, who addresses very real and blatant issues. His proposed solutions, on the other hand, are a mixed bag and many of the people surrounding him are primarily interested in pushing their own agenda or strengthening the power of aristocracy at the expense of the royalty - but players who prefer decentralization might see the latter as a move in a positive direction, with formations like the Houseguard poised to replace the military and so on. Wulfram's faction is progressive on issues that benefit them (pushing towards industrialization) and reactionary towards changes that would strengthen the crown (army reform, including technological improvements thereof.)
Populist ideas/rhetoric is often such that it looks great at first glance and begins to fall apart when you examine it in detail. Perhaps reflecting this, apparently most players who started the series with Lords ended up favoring Wulfram. However, a returning player character who ended up disillusioned with the army or lacking connections might very well favor Wulfram as well. Overall, it seems like a fair and realistic portrayal of a populist political faction.
The King and Queen are ruthless reformers. Like Wulfram, Miguel identifies real issues within Tierra but said issues and his solutions are more far-sighted at the expense of the current generation. He was willing to commit to an incredibly ballsy, costly and prolonged war with Antar just to remove Tierra from its sphere of influence for good, he is willing to extend the incredibly precarious war economy to solidify the army reforms, and alienate Takara in order to replace Antar with Kian as the country's grain supplier. There is room to disagree with each individual issue but his temperament as a monarch seems pretty clear. He is not merely interested in preserving his status quo but is actively pushing the country in the direction he thinks would serve it in the long term, hence the broad progressivism on a number of issues. And if that means violating the spirit of the law (relentless use of veto against Wulfram's faction,) or the word of the law (all the royalist-aligned gangs running around burning wulframites) to make sure the pesky parliamentary system does not get in his way, he is willing to do that. Again, I think that this portrayal is more interesting than that of the stereotypical incest-brained hypertraditionalist monarch, while retaining a political ruthlessness and moral flexibility required to enact monarchical changes against an aristocracy and the age-old instability inherent to changes achieved unilaterally by an authoritarian power (being that the next person in line can use the same levers of power to easily overturn their predecessors reforms if it comes down to it, which is not as prevalent to changes achieved by ex. relatively more stable parliamentary institutions.) As a side note, I feel like it's ironic that a lot of monarchists Trad reactionary arch/peak/dome/sphere/semicircle/parabola/hexadron-conservative people etc seem to miss that the coolest monarchs were typically the reformist sort that had no issue bucking tradition when doing so was required, even to the point of transitioning the country away from monarchic rule.
Wulfram is not necessarily a Takaran agent anymore than the King is a Kian (Kianese?) agent. Tierra flirting with either of those two superpowers (as was almost certainly going to happen due to absence of Antari grain) would necessary pull the country into a proxy war with the other. The two factions simply chose their sides.
Now, the real issue, as I see it, and as acknowledged by the author, is as you mentioned - for returning players the NPC deck is heavily stacked in favor of the royalists. Btw he had a post-mortem for Lords of Infinity up on his blog where he goes over this point in detail and more. Sometimes I pretend that he is only writing to me and it makes me heart and prostate beat as one in a synchronised, life-affirming pulse. I talk to him a lot and I don't even mind that he stopped responding ever since the bitch woman who trespasses into my home started torturing me with some sort of new drug. Jokes on them, I will stop taking that shit soon, while continuing to help myself to the complimentary candies they lure me with, you know the ones that come in cool little bottles with the orange caps just like grandma used to have in her pantry yum yum
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
You are totally right that there are nuances to Wulfram. He is far from an egalitarian and I agree that the factions transcend the typical brain-dead "liberal vs trad".
However, my complaint was written from the point of a game, an interactive fiction. What the author should have done is to foresee this issue and make sure that the characters you have known and grown to like in previous games are split on the issue, instead of all of them being in one camp. That would be much more interesting! You would actually be standing against your former friends and so would your comrades. You would have to choose between one friend and the other. Right now, it's kind of boring. And sure, you might say that homeless people in the streets are supposed to nudge your sympathies towards ending the war taxes. That is true, but they are just abstract things to you as a player and character. You won't feel for them as you do for actual characters that you know.
And btw:
However, my complaint was written from the point of a game, an interactive fiction. What the author should have done is to foresee this issue and make sure that the characters you have known and grown to like in previous games are split on the issue, instead of all of them being in one camp. That would be much more interesting! You would actually be standing against your former friends and so would your comrades. You would have to choose between one friend and the other. Right now, it's kind of boring. And sure, you might say that homeless people in the streets are supposed to nudge your sympathies towards ending the war taxes. That is true, but they are just abstract things to you as a player and character. You won't feel for them as you do for actual characters that you know.
And btw:
Lithium Flower
Arcane
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Mhm, the disbalance is felt for sure. I respect that as an author he also needed to be true to the characters and avoid having the political split be too contrived (you know, classic "it's Act 3 so now everyone is at each other's throats for no reason" situation.) But then he should have probably picked a different conflict to center the game around or framed it in a way that allowed for a less biased NPC distribution.
Oh, one pro-wulframite factor that plays on existing player loyalties that people seem to forget about is the Hunter Ascension meme. Again, if you play as a relatively politically-savvy character it likely won't be enough to sway you, but it does create room for a kind of honorable-yet-asocial soldier type of protagonist to get drawn into supporting the Wulframites out of respect for Hunter. I thought that guy was a cool guy, he fought the hussars and wasn't afraid of anything until he fucking died.
Oh, one pro-wulframite factor that plays on existing player loyalties that people seem to forget about is the Hunter Ascension meme. Again, if you play as a relatively politically-savvy character it likely won't be enough to sway you, but it does create room for a kind of honorable-yet-asocial soldier type of protagonist to get drawn into supporting the Wulframites out of respect for Hunter. I thought that guy was a cool guy, he fought the hussars and wasn't afraid of anything until he fucking died.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Lithium Flower I am gonna look up the post-mortem, should be interesting.
And why did you edit the first sentence of your rebuttal of me? You were afraid to hurt my feelings?
And why did you edit the first sentence of your rebuttal of me? You were afraid to hurt my feelings?
Lithium Flower
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What I mean to say is "I have a different opinion; I think the situation is more nuanced." My phrasing was poor so it instead read like "My opinion on the situation is more nuanced than your opinion."
Besides yes being more polite I also think it's more earnest and accurate of a statement because I don't believe in objective value systems, therefore the statements I can make with highest degree of confidence are those about my own feelings and perspective. And although my phraseology does not always match my beliefs, and neither does it stop me from engaging in vitriolic shitposting or calling other people's opinions dumb or lacking nuance from a pretense of pseudo-objectivity, I think your post hardly deserved such treatment.
Besides yes being more polite I also think it's more earnest and accurate of a statement because I don't believe in objective value systems, therefore the statements I can make with highest degree of confidence are those about my own feelings and perspective. And although my phraseology does not always match my beliefs, and neither does it stop me from engaging in vitriolic shitposting or calling other people's opinions dumb or lacking nuance from a pretense of pseudo-objectivity, I think your post hardly deserved such treatment.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Indeed. We will continue this debate in about 7 years when the sequel comes out.
Tyranicon
A Memory of Eternity
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I don't usually do this, but I re-purchased all three titles on steam. I'll probably contribute to his patreon too.
Still, I don't think he is entirely unknown. He has a wiki for the setting and seems to be pretty well-known for being a text CYOA author, a breed which usually suffers in obscurity. If the series had been VNs instead, I expect he would be much better known, but then again it is black powder mil-fic, a highly niche topic.
The Infinity series has been somewhat inspirational to me, especially in how to handle c&c. I think I will be applying the lessons learnt here to my next game.
Still, I don't think he is entirely unknown. He has a wiki for the setting and seems to be pretty well-known for being a text CYOA author, a breed which usually suffers in obscurity. If the series had been VNs instead, I expect he would be much better known, but then again it is black powder mil-fic, a highly niche topic.
The Infinity series has been somewhat inspirational to me, especially in how to handle c&c. I think I will be applying the lessons learnt here to my next game.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Of course it has a wiki when there are retards willing to dig through the game's code to discover bugs.
Still, he lives in a one-bedroom apartment. (Strange as I thought he has a wife and kids, guess not?)
Still, he lives in a one-bedroom apartment. (Strange as I thought he has a wife and kids, guess not?)
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Tyranicon
A Memory of Eternity
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Of course it has a wiki when there are retards willing to dig through the game's code to discover bugs.
Still, he lives in a one-bedroom apartment. (Strange as I thought he has a wife and kids, guess not?)
Making narrative-driven games by yourself is a laughably bad way to make money.
Speaking as someone in the same boat, it's entirely something you do because it's what you want to do. The tradeoff should be that your personal satisfaction would be worth the lack of yachts.
I think Paul Wang has a bright future ahead of him. He seems to be relatively young, and his writing is genuinely enjoyable. Maybe eventually he'll have a hit game on his hands.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
The allure of the Infinity series certainly grows with each installment. We also have to realize that his audience is very different from that of other ChoiceScript games. Most of the other games are full of romance and sunshine. Women are probably the majority of players for CoG / HoG. I am fairly certain that most players of this series are men, however.
We have to get the word out.
Tyranicon
A Memory of Eternity
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You know, I'm thinking about doing a solid and making a cross-promotion post on steam. I don't have a large audience, but it's somewhat significant.
I'll message him and see what he thinks, but it's a no-strings attached kind of thing. I don't even expect him to reciprocate, since I do make porn.
I'll message him and see what he thinks, but it's a no-strings attached kind of thing. I don't even expect him to reciprocate, since I do make porn.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
To be fair, nearly every interactive fiction includes written porn, basically. The most popular ones revolve around romance anyhow.
I have an ongoing convo with him. He gave me some insight into the original plan for Lords. I'll ask him if I can share it here.
I have an ongoing convo with him. He gave me some insight into the original plan for Lords. I'll ask him if I can share it here.
Lithium Flower
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Also mention that some guy on this forum is currently doing an absolutely legendary interactive let's play of Lords and wouldn't mind receiving royalties for promoting the work, I figure something in the realm of 10% would be fair compensation for his remarkable dedication, effort, and above all humility ok.
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Lithium Flower
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Also there may be a certain someone who could ghostwrite the steamy romantic content that the series has in desperate deficit - normally I would suggest Tyranicon but come on this series deserves at least a breeding kink. Now, if only there was someone who is basically just like Tyranicon but unrepentantly uninhibited and, you know, basically a degenerate, hmmm...
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
Well, of course, I had your thread in mind already. I'll tell him about this and your thread. Communication through email is on the slow end, and I am not entirely sure if he is even gonna respond to my last email, so we have to wait a bit before I ask for permission.
I want to be polite, so I would rather not share the convo outright. He basically told me how the problems of Lords came to be. I don't think he shared such details publicly, since it's not even in the post-mortem report.
You know, it actually wouldn't be too hard to create a mod or a "DLC" adding your own degenerate content into Lords. Anyone can grasp how the ChoiceScript works.
Spectral Pontifex
Guest
I suppose one might get a good picture of what happened from the post-mortem already. It's nice to hear the author say straightforwardly why it happened though.
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